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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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^ If you applied any reading comprehension skills prior to posting you'd have seen clearly that nowhere does Kuros say people "shouldn't vote". That's just what you wish he'd said so you could have a strawman to attack. In fact, he merely pointed out the obvious fact that a vote for either D or R is essentially a wasted vote, since both parties are bought and paid for and serve the exact same corrupt interests.
He then suggests voting 3rd party as an alternative, but you completely ignored it. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
^ If you applied any reading comprehension skills prior to posting you'd have seen clearly that nowhere does Kuros say people "shouldn't vote". That's just what you wish he'd said so you could have a strawman to attack. In fact, he merely pointed out the obvious fact that a vote for either D or R is essentially a wasted vote, since both parties are bought and paid for and serve the exact same corrupt interests.
He then suggests voting 3rd party as an alternative, but you completely ignored it. |
someone once said that you can call compost anything you want but it's still (bull)sh*t
same here. too many of you on here are doing everything you can to discourage people from voting which is ludicrous. voting for a 3rd party who has no realistic chance of winning is the same as not voting at all and can even throw an election to the least popular/deserving candidate.
*furthermore to those who said/believe a vote in a swing state is the only one that counts - OMG - WHY DO YOU EVEN THINK WE HAVE SWING STATES?? WHICH WOULDN'T EVEN MATTER IF NO ONE WAS VOTING OR VOTES DIDN'T COUNT!!!!! |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
^ If you applied any reading comprehension skills prior to posting you'd have seen clearly that nowhere does Kuros say people "shouldn't vote". That's just what you wish he'd said so you could have a strawman to attack. In fact, he merely pointed out the obvious fact that a vote for either D or R is essentially a wasted vote, since both parties are bought and paid for and serve the exact same corrupt interests.
He then suggests voting 3rd party as an alternative, but you completely ignored it. |
someone once said that you can call compost anything you want but it's still (bull)sh*t
same here. too many of you on here are doing everything you can to discourage people from voting which is ludicrous. voting for a 3rd party who has no realistic chance of winning is the same as not voting at all and can even throw an election to the least popular/deserving candidate.
*furthermore to those who said/believe a vote in a swing state is the only one that counts - OMG - WHY DO YOU EVEN THINK WE HAVE SWING STATES?? WHICH WOULDN'T EVEN MATTER IF NO ONE WAS VOTING OR VOTES DIDN'T COUNT!!!!! |
Wow. Okay.
| Kuros wrote: |
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just vote. it's important and it does count.
Your vote is wasted unless you "throw it away" on a third-party candidate or live in one of roughly 7-8 swing states. |
I'm encouraging people to vote third-party, or even the lesser evil of D v. R if they live in one of about eight states.
I hope that's clear as crystal now.
| luckylady wrote: |
| voting for a 3rd party who has no realistic chance of winning is the same as not voting at all and can even throw an election to the least popular/deserving candidate. |
Yes, such a vote can throw an election, in about one of eight consequential states. If you're voting in one of the other forty-some states, voting third-party erodes at the popular mandate of one of the two major parties. It also bolsters the key issues of any third-party issue candidate.
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| What does the future hold for the Reform Party, the Green Party and other "third parties" in the American system? Quite probably, the same fate that has befallen third parties that have come before them. One or both of the two major parties is bound to "steal" their issues, incorporate them into their platforms and absorb their supporters into their ranks. |
In order to marginalize third parties, one of the two parties steal their issues. In this way, 'failed' candidacies can infiltrate the platform of one of the two parties. Either a third-party breaks through, as did the Republican Party in 1860, or a major platform of the third-party is co-opted and incorporated into the two-party dynamic. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| too many of you on here are doing everything you can to discourage people from voting which is ludicrous. voting for a 3rd party who has no realistic chance of winning is the same as not voting at all and can even throw an election to the least popular/deserving candidate. |
Lady, while I think certain parties here pessimistically under-state the difference between the parties (while admittedly being correct that some of that common ground is the foundation of certain serious national problems), the voting calculus put forward by Kuros is just a matter of simple mathematics, not some admonition against taking part in the political process; the statistical efficacy of given votes is assuredly affected by the region one is voting in, which can indeed mean that, for some citizens, the best way to express your political will is with an issue-driven third party vote. Why does that offend you so? Surely you want to maximize your political voice, and the advice given can help you do that by taking into account historic regional voting trends.
I am sympathetic to your position, but we have to work with the reality we have, right? Be pragmatic. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| The continuity between Bush and Obama should lay the R v D argument to rest. If you can't see this then please focus on Monday Night Football and leave politics alone. |
Ya-Ta thinks Obama is FDR. Obama said so. |
Wrong.
I don't think he is FDR. I HOPE he is FDR.
Without either an FDR or a Reagan, we are pretty much doomed to stalemate, and therefore real disaster.
Anyone who is not ideologically blind would wish for a solution that produces a large, healthy, vibrant middle class, as was produced by FDR/Truman. The alternative is a repeat of the stagnant, regressive policies that produced the mess we are in now...but worse. |
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Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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OK now it looks like it will be Paul Ryan.
Who is this guy? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| That's my question as well - never heard of him. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Ryan spent several months on the front page of the major papers during the debt/budget debate. He's not a memorable guy, but he's not obscure. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| a vote for either D or R is essentially a wasted vote |
This is just totally and completely absurd.
If you vote for 'C'onservatives, this is the direction the government will go:
a) abortion will be limited, possibly banned. Mississippi has managed to reduce the number of places to get an abortion down to 1 in the whole state. Further, 'personhood' laws are being pushed by the 'conservatives', which can ban IUDs and other forms of birth control, including morning after pills.
b) corporations will be deemed 'people', with all the consequences that will imply. Hello Neo-Feudalism.
c) continuation of laying off of police officers. Hello packing heat when you run down to the 7-11 for a pack of gum.
d) an intensified attack on public education. The thinking seems to be that the 1% can supply enough top-notch employees to keep the country at/near the top in international competition.
e) government regulation must be cut back, to heck with your water supply bursting into flames and your house being shaken to a pile of rubble. CEOs have only your best interests at heart. Does the phrase 'special interest' mean nothing at all?
f) Generational warfare...Hurray!!! Shred the social compact. If you can't beat 'em in discussion, at least you can use 'divide and conquer' and the politics of fear. That's the way to run a country.
g) Theocracy anyone? Missouri just had a referendum about letting students opt out of any school assignment they feel violates their religious beliefs. Louisiana just had a school rescind its rule about girls who anyone thought might be pregnant being forced to take a pregnancy test. Boys, not so much. Why would any high school student be required to take a pregnancy test? It's a 'character issue'. Is 'Creation Science' science or is it just an attempt to insert a narrow religious view into the public school system?
f) Small government: Since '08, 11,000 California school teachers have been laid off. Is this any way to invest in our future as a country? Is it 600,000 public employees laid off during a recession? Really?
These are SOME of the issues at hand in this election.
There are issues that both parties agree, and are both abhorant.
The system as it has evolved over the last couple of centuries offers us only 2 choices. Occasionally, we get a third choice. This time around is not one of them.
From here, I am only speaking to liberals: Swallow your reservations and vote correctly. Let the right-wing vote and fragment it's weight as they see fit. Encourage your wing-nut friends to vote for whichever flake they want. We have the clearest ideological election in a generation--maybe since 1932. Make it count. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Anyone who's never heard of Paul Ryan simply does not follow American politics, or watch the news.
America is broke. America needs to cut absolutely EVERYTHING. Americans need to make believe they are *not* third-world leeches; they need to provide for themselves without government coddling. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
Anyone who's never heard of Paul Ryan simply does not follow American politics, or watch the news.
America is broke. America needs to cut absolutely EVERYTHING. Americans need to make believe they are *not* third-world leeches; they need to provide for themselves without government coddling. |
This is only true if you buy into the right wing philosophy. We are not at all broke. We have managed to get ourselves into a corner of shovelling all the wealth of the country into the hands of a very few people at the top. This is a plan of the plutocrats. This is a plan of Romney/Ryan. It hasn't worked in 30 years and is not at all likely to work at any time in the next 30 years, but it is the fantasy of the 1%.
One simple solution is to reduce 'defense' spending for about 15 years while the boomers work their way through the retirement phase of life. The Right prefers to pretend that they will always be alive. It's called government by fear and government by division. It's a lie, as is much of what the right says. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| We have managed to get ourselves into a corner of shovelling all the wealth of the country into the hands of a very few people at the top. This is a plan of the plutocrats. This is a plan of Romney/Ryan. |
I take it you weren't paying attention the past three years. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| We have managed to get ourselves into a corner of shovelling all the wealth of the country into the hands of a very few people at the top. This is a plan of the plutocrats. This is a plan of Romney/Ryan. |
I take it you weren't paying attention the past three years. |
Ermm...wrong by a factor of 10 or so. That's been the plan for the last 30 years. Which pile of sand have you had your head buried in?
I yearn for the days of Ike when the top rate was up into the 90% range. THOSE were the days. No doubt some of them whined (that seems to be a trait of the uber-wealthy), but most of them had no real problem with it. That was back in the days when the super-rich felt patriotic and not the latest incarnation of 'I've got mine and screw the rest of you'. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Ermm...wrong by a factor of 10 or so. That's been the plan for the last 30 years. Which pile of sand have you had your head buried in? |
No, you misunderstand. You've been cheerleading for the person who actually did the thing you claim (probably rightfully) that Romney and Ryan plan to do. Yes, the corruption existed beyond the current presidency, but that doesn't excuse your hypocrisy. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Follow the money (as usual):
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-how-badly-does-wall-street-want-romney-presidency
Yata seems like a nice guy and I understand his desire for an earlier, simpler (?) time when government wasn't so obviously beholden to moneyed interests, but here we are.
The whole Red/Blue divide imo is a completely diversionary tactic to dupe the masses while the gov't/elites pay off the lower classes w/ SNAP cards and what-have-you to maintain "order" while they mug the middle class and send their jobs overseas in search of profits.
Disgusting? Yes. Treasonous? Absolutely. But Obama's administration hasn't sent anyone to prison and in fact still has Corzine the scumbag bundling campaign donations. Give me an effin' break already.
Romney/Ryan will just be more of the same, if not worse. |
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