|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
|
 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Steelrails, WTF? You are bringing up names that have nothing to do with the topic. I canot see how Scooter Libby and Robert Hassen have anything to do with the topic.
And yes, the campaign contributions part is not the strongest point against passport babies/birth tourism. I will give you that.
And ttompatz....what are you talking about? You are rambling on about hillbillies like it proves your argument. I showed you the math. The passport baby should pay international tuition fees just like the rest of the international students. It is not about WHO the universities accept. It's a matter of WHAT they SHOULD pay.
And do you consider people that live in the Blue Ridge Mountain area to be 'hillbillies' and people who 'have no chance of getting above the poverty level'? Those were your typed words. Why don't you let all those people from N and S Carolina, Georgia, W Virginia, and Virginia know how you feel about them. And how about the trailer trash from Texas? How did THEY come into the argument?
Here are some of the benefits of a US citizen that passport babies receive:
1. A Citizen Can Vote
A citizen has the right to vote for elected officials at the federal, state and local levels who shape the policy of the government.
2.
Citizens can leave the US and live in another country for as long as they want, yet still come back at any time. Travel may be easier for US citizens in certain countries with visa waivers for Americans. And citizens receive US embassy protection abroad.
3. Citizens Can Bring More Relatives From Abroad, More Quickly
Citizens can petition for a wider variety of family members to come to the US as permanent residents. They also have much shorter waiting times for green cards, and no limits.
4. Citizens Cannot be Deported
Most of us never expect to commit a crime, but if we are the victims of circumstance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, as citizens, we cannot be deported. We also don't need to worry about a lost green card or too-long stay outside the US preventing us from re-entering.
5. Citizens Can Retire Abroad With Full Social Security Benefits
Citizens who retire abroad get all their Social Security benefits. Green card holders only get half of the benefits they earned.
6. Citizens are Entitled to More Public Benefits
Citizens are eligible for more public benefits, including Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and Food Stamps, as well as certain academic scholarships and financial aid.
7. A US Citizen Can Hold Office and Have More Job Opportunities
Only a citizen has the right to hold an elected position in most city, state or federal offices. Many federal, state and city jobs also require citizenship.
8. Adopted or Natural Children Under 18 May be Naturalized Automatically
Depending on the circumstances, children born abroad, who are under 18 years of age and unmarried may be able to naturalize automatically when a parent does so.
9. Citizens Have More Financial and Tax Benefits
Citizens often receive approval on loans andmortgages more easily, and/or they get better rates, because the lender knows there is less chance they will defect. Citizens are often subject to fewer restrictions on estate taxes as well.
Add these to the list that I already posted above. There should be something done to reduce and/or stop birth tourism. That's just my opinon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Koharski wrote: |
| jeronimoski wrote: |
Ah ttompatz....always hiding behind that computer of yours when you call people names. Too bad I couldn't accidentally bump into you on the street sometime.
|
Threats like this are not only extremely juvenile, they are a violation of Terms of Service. Users who make comments like this usually do not last for very long.
Koharski |
And calling people a redneck through the computer is appropriate? If you are going to moderate, then be fair about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
That is 2 Violations.
For your review:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=216119
You have no clue what has been communicated between the Mod team and ttompaz. That is not your concern. I made the comment on the thread because we take these little "meet you in real life' comments very seriously and need to make sure our response in visible.
Koharski |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ok, understood. I will keep it clean from now on. My apologies. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks.
It is a difficult issue discussed in this thread and I look forward to everyone sharing their thoughts on the issue so that we can all use the information presented to form our own opinions of on the matter.
Koharski |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SMOE NSET
Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jeronimoski wrote: |
1. A Citizen Can Vote
A citizen has the right to vote for elected officials at the federal, state and local levels who shape the policy of the government.
They have to be registered in the county they live. Key word live.
2.
Citizens can leave the US and live in another country for as long as they want, yet still come back at any time. Travel may be easier for US citizens in certain countries with visa waivers for Americans. And citizens receive US embassy protection abroad.
See no problem with this. They have to pay for their passport. Don't think this will ruin the economy.
3. Citizens Can Bring More Relatives From Abroad, More Quickly
Citizens can petition for a wider variety of family members to come to the US as permanent residents. They also have much shorter waiting times for green cards, and no limits.
This is actually a lot harder than you think. You know they have to be approved by immigration before any of this is possible. By approval, they have to go through a strenuous test (check finances, income tax returns, proof of residency)
4. Citizens Cannot be Deported
Most of us never expect to commit a crime, but if we are the victims of circumstance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, as citizens, we cannot be deported. We also don't need to worry about a lost green card or too-long stay outside the US preventing us from re-entering.
Why would they be deported if they "don't live there". Plus, have you heard of the status of U.S. prisons? I would probably prefer Korean prisons.
5. Citizens Can Retire Abroad With Full Social Security Benefits
Citizens who retire abroad get all their Social Security benefits. Green card holders only get half of the benefits they earned.
I can see this as a problem except for the fact they have to be eligible by actually paying into the scheme.
6. Citizens are Entitled to More Public Benefits
Citizens are eligible for more public benefits, including Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and Food Stamps, as well as certain academic scholarships and financial aid.
As with the visas, they have to apply and be accepted. It is the government office's job to check whether they deserve it or not. They check to see if you need it by doing background checks, residency checks, income checks, etc.
7. A US Citizen Can Hold Office and Have More Job Opportunities
Only a citizen has the right to hold an elected position in most city, state or federal offices. Many federal, state and city jobs also require citizenship.
Like the people will actually elect someone that doesn't even live in the country.
8. Adopted or Natural Children Under 18 May be Naturalized Automatically
Depending on the circumstances, children born abroad, who are under 18 years of age and unmarried may be able to naturalize automatically when a parent does so.
There are rules for children being born abroad. For instance, the children of those children do not gain automatic citizenship if they are born abroad.
9. Citizens Have More Financial and Tax Benefits
Citizens often receive approval on loans andmortgages more easily, and/or they get better rates, because the lender knows there is less chance they will defect. Citizens are often subject to fewer restrictions on estate taxes as well.
Yeah but to receive those benefits they will have to show some type of proof they can pay off those loans and mortgages. The banks would not give people with no financial history to borrow money.
Add these to the list that I already posted above. There should be something done to reduce and/or stop birth tourism. That's just my opinon. |
I agree though. There should be something done about the loopholes but like others have said I don't have a problem with rich families that will actually help the economy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Steelrails, WTF? You are bringing up names that have nothing to do with the topic. I canot see how Scooter Libby and Robert Hassen have anything to do with the topic. |
| Quote: |
| Security clearnances. If you have someone outside the US that has access to sensitive material, there is a chance that the information could fall into the worng hands. A concrete argument since China is on the rise. |
So, never mind the silliness that someone outside the US, somehow magically gains access to sensitive material simply by being an anchor baby, you also implied that immigrants of Chinese background deserve extra scrutiny in the fine tradition of say, Japanese Internment. Why not other peoples?
So why Libby & Hanssen? To show that maybe you just as soon look to home as China for people likely to betray you. Greed trumps nationalism. Instead of looking for people with Chinese names as potential spies, might want to be looking at the Anglo making 60K a year living in a large estate and driving a brand new Mercedes every year.
| Quote: |
4. Citizens Cannot be Deported
Most of us never expect to commit a crime, but if we are the victims of circumstance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, as citizens, we cannot be deported. We also don't need to worry about a lost green card or too-long stay outside the US preventing us from re-entering. |
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but if I had to guess that given the choice between 5-10 in San Quentin and deportation, Min Soo Kim would choose deportation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
So, never mind the silliness that someone outside the US, somehow magically gains access to sensitive material simply by being an anchor baby, you also implied that immigrants of Chinese background deserve extra scrutiny in the fine tradition of say, Japanese Internment. Why not other peoples? |
Where did I say that immigrants of Chinese background deserve extra scrutiny? I said that we should change the law because passport babies shouldn't be allowed to have US citizenship...and therefore have the ability to have security clearance.
| Steelrails wrote: |
So why Libby & Hanssen? To show that maybe you just as soon look to home as China for people likely to betray you. Greed trumps nationalism. Instead of looking for people with Chinese names as potential spies, might want to be looking at the Anglo making 60K a year living in a large estate and driving a brand new Mercedes every year. |
Again, your words. I said the law should be changed so they shouldn't be granted US citizenship.
| Quote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
4. Citizens Cannot be Deported
Most of us never expect to commit a crime, but if we are the victims of circumstance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, as citizens, we cannot be deported. We also don't need to worry about a lost green card or too-long stay outside the US preventing us from re-entering. |
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but if I had to guess that given the choice between 5-10 in San Quentin and deportation, Min Soo Kim would choose deportation. |
If Min Soo Kim is a passport baby, then he/she will have US citizenship. Therefore, poor Min Soo will be doing 5-10 in San Quentin whether she likes it or not. Anways, what's the point you are trying to make? And I just copied the whole list. I'm not saying that #4 is the main reason.
I just think the law should change. That's my opinion. Too many foreigners are abusing this loophole. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jeronimoski wrote: |
Where did I say that immigrants of Chinese background deserve extra scrutiny? I said that we should change the law because passport babies shouldn't be allowed to have US citizenship...and therefore have the ability to have security clearance. |
Citizenship does not equal security clearance. Security clearance equals security clearance.
| Quote: |
| I just think the law should change. That's my opinion. Too many foreigners are abusing this loophole. |
How many? How are they exploiting it? I mean, you tossed out hypothetical math, but where are the REAL numbers of exploitation? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
So just because their parents aren't American means they shouldn't be?
Somehow, as dual nationals they have less value than someone from Idaho or Montana?
Who is to say they are not entitled to return, get an education and become contributing members of society (like so many before them).
Come to think of it, isn't the President an "anchor baby" of sorts?
Your other arguments hold about as much water and are clearly written by someone who has never had to deal with the INS / USCIS / ICE (names have changed but the policies have just gotten worse since 2001) and has no understanding of the immigration process (and difficulties) to the US.
And my referral to the rednecks / Republicans / hillbillies from the Blue Ridge / trailer trash from Texas (unless of course you happen to fall into either category - something I am not personally privy to) who wrote those articles you linked is not a TOS violation - address the issue, after all, you brought it up... NOT the posters who disagree with your point of view ....
.
Solve the problems - burn the constitution  . Damn the torpedoes - full speed ahead! There were WMDs in Iraq   .
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Where did I say that immigrants of Chinese background deserve extra scrutiny? I said that we should change the law because passport babies shouldn't be allowed to have US citizenship...and therefore have the ability to have security clearance. |
It was strongly implied that they represented a significant security risk over "normal" Americans.
And how in the world does having citizenship=security clearance? Gee, I had no idea I could stroll through the NSA and look at sensitive materials. Wow, thanks for the tip!
Word to the wise, security clearance has to deal with your reliability and your position. Foreign nationals working for intelligence agencies we are cooperating with can have greater access to sensitive information than a lifelong U.S. citizen.
To paraphrase Mike- I don't know what movies you've been watching, but here in the real world passport babies don't just get security clearance parachuted onto them.
| Quote: |
| Again, your words. I said the law should be changed so they shouldn't be granted US citizenship. |
Fine, but don't give cockamamie reasons like "Security Clearance" or "Influencing Elections". Anyone with half a brain can see through the epic fails of logic and real-worldedness regarding those.
| Quote: |
| If Min Soo Kim is a passport baby, then he/she will have US citizenship. Therefore, poor Min Soo will be doing 5-10 in San Quentin whether she likes it or not. Anways, what's the point you are trying to make? And I just copied the whole list. I'm not saying that #4 is the main reason. |
So deport him, isn't that what you want? I'm sure he'll agree. Saves a tax burden for us. Set up a treaty to see that he serves time in Korean prison. Or he can fight deportation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: ff |
|
|
| Captain Corea wrote: |
How many? How are they exploiting it? I mean, you tossed out hypothetical math, but where are the REAL numbers of exploitation? |
Out of that 8,000 from 2006? Who knows yet. They are still only 12 years old. But consider this. If the reason why the mother came to the US is because she wanted to get citizenship for her son/daughter, then why wouldn't they take advantage of the system? Why spend all that money and not get the cheaper education and the other numerous benefits I mentioned? It wouldn't make sense. I do not have numbers for how many exploit the system. It's quite obvious that no one would fess up to it.
Let's say you have 200 18 year old kids who were passport babies. They all use their scammed US citizenship to come back to the US to go to school. There parents haven't paid one cent in US taxes, but their child can go to school in the US for cheaper than other international students. Consider the following:
Full-Time (12 � 18 credits) $7,225 $20,838
That's a semester. After four years, it looks like this: $57,800 $166,704 That's a big difference. Now I can see why they jack the system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
edit
Last edited by slothrop on Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeronimoski
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
Fine, but don't give cockamamie reasons like "Security Clearance" or "Influencing Elections". Anyone with half a brain can see through the epic fails of logic and real-worldedness regarding those.
. |
I like those 'anyone can see...' and 'logic...real-worldedness...' responses. I've had some other conversations with you where you started to attack my character and intelligence. That seems to be your general tactic when making arguments on here. So be it. Keep it up.
I am completely against birth toursim. These parents are obviously taking advantage of the system to get financial and life benefits that they have never earned. I THINK (and this is just my opinion like I've said numerous times before) that the law should be changed. I have listed the benefits that passport babies receive if they get US citizenship. Whether or not the parents are taking advantage of all the benefits is unclear, but it is OBVIOUS that they are taking advantage of most of the benefits...otherwise, they would never go to the US and give birth. I am against parents who do this because they do not even pay US taxes and yet they are getting free benefits like the rest of us.
Consider this. Let's say that Korean health insurance is completely free. The Korean government finds out that American parents are flying to Seoul to give birth to babies in order to get Korean (dual) citizenship. After the baby is born, the parents return to the US. Let's say the baby gets cancer. Their insurance in America is terrible, so they fly the baby to Korea. Sicne the baby has dual citizenship, he/she is entitled to free health care. They get a free operation to remove the cancerous matter. They don't pay a cent for anything. The baby recovers. The family flies back to the US and continues their lives. Do you think Koreans would find this acceptable? Hell no! That's why I am against this loophole. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jeronimoski wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Fine, but don't give cockamamie reasons like "Security Clearance" or "Influencing Elections". Anyone with half a brain can see through the epic fails of logic and real-worldedness regarding those.
. |
I like those 'anyone can see...' and 'logic...real-worldedness...' responses. I've had some other conversations with you where you started to attack my character and intelligence. That seems to be your general tactic when making arguments on here. So be it. Keep it up.
I am completely against birth toursim. These parents are obviously taking advantage of the system to get financial and life benefits that they have never earned. I THINK (and this is just my opinion like I've said numerous times before) that the law should be changed. I have listed the benefits that passport babies receive if they get US citizenship. Whether or not the parents are taking advantage of all the benefits is unclear, but it is OBVIOUS that they are taking advantage of most of the benefits...otherwise, they would never go to the US and give birth. I am against parents who do this because they do not even pay US taxes and yet they are getting free benefits like the rest of us.
Consider this. Let's say that Korean health insurance is completely free. The Korean government finds out that American parents are flying to Seoul to give birth to babies in order to get Korean (dual) citizenship. After the baby is born, the parents return to the US. Let's say the baby gets cancer. Their insurance in America is terrible, so they fly the baby to Korea. Sicne the baby has dual citizenship, he/she is entitled to free health care. They get a free operation to remove the cancerous matter. They don't pay a cent for anything. The baby recovers. The family flies back to the US and continues their lives. Do you think Koreans would find this acceptable? Hell no! That's why I am against this loophole. |
Perfectly fine. I agree that there should be limitations as well and measures taken to curb anchor babies.
I just took exception to the utter nonsense that anchor babies would somehow magically represent a threat to classified information or would buy and sell senators upon returning here for college.
Word of advice on advocating a position- leave the paranoid implausible crap behind. If you start spouting off about how some anchor baby is going to break into the NSA thanks to his mom birthing him during a 36 hour layover at LAX 20 years ago, no one will listen to you.
"Hi anchor baby. Here's top secret clearance. Welcome Back!". Please.
Now if you say this loophole is unfair to other immigrants or costs us tax dollars or gives unfair benefits, well then fine, that's probably true and people will give an ear to it.
But good grief, security clearance issues? Seriously had me laughing at that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
