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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Brooks wrote: |
I have worked in Tokyo since 2000.
It is funny that people are thinking of coming here from Korea. I think the market is saturated here. This country is expensive. Probably you can do better in Korea.
I am thinking of giving up and moving back to the US. There is just too much competition for decent jobs. I got a 5 year contract for work at a university. |
That's just it, every weebo in the western world wants to go and live in Japan. Korea has always been seen as a harsher, rougher, more barbaric TEFL destination compared to Japan.
Yes, Japan is cleaner. The cities are less cluttered and dumpy looking and the salaries are generally higher.
However, as Brooks correctly points out, the competition for TEFL jobs in Japan is fierce. There are just too many young gaijin stepping off the plane in pursuit of their "dream" to live in Japan. They are willing to work for ￥180, 000 a month just to stay in Japan! And English schools know this.
Yes, the exchange rate is very good - especially for Canadians, Australians, N.Z. There are teachers, who have the good jobs (e.g., university positions) there making US $80, 000 ~ $100, 000 a year or more with the current favorable exchange rates. These TEFL jobs are harder to get into but they are there for those who are qualified.
Also, dispatch agencies like Altia, INTERAC, Westgate, etc. have taken over the market and, thus, have driven down salaries as they take a huge chunk of the pie for themselves.
Yes, Japanese apartments require Key Money or Gift Money (Reikin - 礼金) which can be 1 - 2 months rent in addition to 1 to 2 months damage deposit and another month's rent to the real estate agency for commission. This can result in having to pay as much as 4 or 5 months rent up front for various costs just to move into an apartment in Japan - e.g, US $3, 000 ~ $4, 000. This is a huge deterrent for TEFL teachers wanting to try and gain access to the TEFL jobs in Japan. Some eikaiwa, dispatch agencies and universities, however, provide free or subsidized housing but it's not offered by schools as a rule.
Unfortunately, many Japanese land owners and real estate agencies refuse to rent to foreigners. But there are agencies like FONTANA and Sakura House who specialize in providing gaijin with guest house accommodations or apartments throughout Japan.
Gaijin Pot is a good website to read through if anyone is thinking of making the move to Japan.
People considering a move to do TEFL in Japan should be aware that the Japanese generally don't care about learning English. They just don's seem to have the motivation towards learning English like the Koreans do. At all levels, teachers pretend to be teachers and to teach it and the Japanese pretend to learn it. To them it's just a means to an end - e.g., getting hired at a company or getting into ToDai, etc. Most Japanese couldn't care less about English.
Also, the Japanese have turned inward over the last decade or so and are less interested in things foreign or study and travel abroad, particularly younger Japanese. They are pretty much apathetic towards the outside world. This interesting phenomenon has been referred to as the Galapagos Syndrome.
I'ts also important to realize that most gaijin, while superficially welcomed, are merely tolerated by the Japanese who generally expect foreigners to go home at some point. So if you expect to be a long-term vistor or immigrant, many Japanese will be shocked that you plan on making Japan your home. In fact, there is an inverse relationship between how welcoming Japanese are to foreigners and how long they have been in Japan. Outsiders who are in Japan on vacation or for short study sojourns are shown a good time, those who are permanent residents or long-term residents don't receive such treatment and soon find themselve facing a glass ceiling to opportunities, discrimination and bullying.
Yes, I think the Japanese are easier to live with than the Koreans and are much less outwardly confrontational and in-your-face towards foreigners. However, they are also extremely xenophobic and not as welcoming of outsiders as some who have posted here seem to believe. Yes, Japanese do stare at gaijin - it's even worse in places like Fukuoka (Kyushu) where it is quite rural compared to the Kansai and Kanto areas of the country.
A lot of Japanese still believe in national purity and a major source of their xenophobia is a belief in their national exceptionalism and uniqueness. The term associated with this myth of Japanese uniqueness is nihonjin ron. The Japanese see themselves as superior in both their culture and language.
For instance, many Japanese believe that the Japanese language is too difficult for foreigners to ever learn. In fact, even those gaijin who speak Japanese at the intermediate level or higher often report Japanese people just tuning them out and not taking them seriously. They just can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that an outsider can study and, to some degree, master the Chinese characters - kanji - and Japanese language.
You can also expect the usual barrage of micro-aggressions from most Japanese on a daily basis: (1) Where are you from? (2) Can you eat sushi? (3) Do you like Japan? (4) Japan has 4 seasons. (5) Do you like Japanese girls? (6) When are you going home? (7) Your Japanese is great. (8 ) Can you use chopsticks?, etc.
Also, many Japanese men, when drunk, think that all foreigners are public property for their amusement. Many Japanese are gaijin hunters or English bandits and will want to practice their English, regardless of how good your Japanese is, especially when they're drunk.
For more info on Japanese perceptions and treatment of foreigners, you can read Debito Arudou's website, an American citizen and university professor who naturalized in Japan.
Canadians - They dominate the Korean TEFL scene, but not in Japan - Australians do. There are a lot of Australian and British TEFL teachers working in eikaiwa but for some reason the Canadians gravitate to Korea - or Taiwan. So for those canucks here who may be interested, not many Canadians teaching in Japan. I had read that at one point that before the major eikaiwa chain, NOVA, went bankrupt that nearly half of their 6, 000 teachers were Australians - many on Working Holiday Visas.
Overall, compared to living and teaching in Korea, Japan is a much more smoother, pleasant and comfortable experience. But it's also a lot harder for TEFL teachers to break into than Korea for the reasons outlined above. but don't be shocked when after getting there and living there for a while that you experience some of the same barriers and b.s. that you experience here in Korea. The Japanese are just more subtle about it, usually.
Last edited by I'm With You on Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:37 am; edited 3 times in total |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thats a hell of a good post..thanks, makes alot of sense. I left Japan in 2001 to come here because I felt that and business had started slipping. My fear is Korea will follow suit (like they do in alot of things with Japan).
Yeah, young Japanese arent very interested in the outside world. Music and fashion maybe, but... |
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Occasionally I'll have older Korean guys try speaking English with me, I've never heard English blokes try to speak to foreigners in the UK in their language, so it's kind of cool. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
Canadians - They dominate the Korean TEFL scene, but not in Japan - Australians do. There are a lot of Australian and British TEFL teachers working in eikaiwa but for some reason the Canadians gravitate to Korea - or Taiwan. So for those canucks here who may be interested, not many Canadians teaching in Japan. I had read that at one point that before the major eikaiwa chain, NOVA, went bankrupt that nearly half of their 6, 000 teachers were Australians - many on Working Holiday Visas. |
That's interesting about Canadians, as I know only one here in Shanghai (and he is Canadian-Korean). I wonder why Korea seems to be the destination of choice. I get it that Korea still offers a good package overall, but other countries have scores of ESLers from of wide range of places (Canadians...not so much it seems). |
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| I'm With You wrote: |
Canadians - They dominate the Korean TEFL scene, but not in Japan - Australians do. There are a lot of Australian and British TEFL teachers working in eikaiwa but for some reason the Canadians gravitate to Korea - or Taiwan. So for those canucks here who may be interested, not many Canadians teaching in Japan. I had read that at one point that before the major eikaiwa chain, NOVA, went bankrupt that nearly half of their 6, 000 teachers were Australians - many on Working Holiday Visas. |
That's interesting about Canadians, as I know only one here in Shanghai (and he is Canadian-Korean). I wonder why Korea seems to be the destination of choice. I get it that Korea still offers a good package overall, but other countries have scores of ESLers from of wide range of places (Canadians...not so much it seems). |
Could be a case of 'the devil you know' where some schools are concerned. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| JustinC wrote: |
| byrddogs wrote: |
| I'm With You wrote: |
Canadians - They dominate the Korean TEFL scene, but not in Japan - Australians do. There are a lot of Australian and British TEFL teachers working in eikaiwa but for some reason the Canadians gravitate to Korea - or Taiwan. So for those canucks here who may be interested, not many Canadians teaching in Japan. I had read that at one point that before the major eikaiwa chain, NOVA, went bankrupt that nearly half of their 6, 000 teachers were Australians - many on Working Holiday Visas. |
That's interesting about Canadians, as I know only one here in Shanghai (and he is Canadian-Korean). I wonder why Korea seems to be the destination of choice. I get it that Korea still offers a good package overall, but other countries have scores of ESLers from of wide range of places (Canadians...not so much it seems). |
Could be a case of 'the devil you know' where some schools are concerned. |
A couple of years ago I was looking at the Ministry of Justice statistics for foreigners living in Japan and this is the breakdown, as of 2008.
Chinese - 656, 000
Koreans - 589, 000
Brazilians - 312, 000
Filipinos - 210, 000
Americans - 50, 000
*Canadians - 800 (Yes, 800 - in all of Japan compared to the 10, 378 Canadians living in Korea.) In Tokyo, most of the 450, 000 foreign residents are Chinese and Korean. a lot of the Brazilians are working in the auto industry in the factories in saitama-ken and aichi-ken. In comparison, as of 2011, there are roughly 600, 000 foreign residents in all of Korea.
The rough breakdown for foreign residents in Korea, as of 2011:
Chinese - 300, 000
Vietnamese - 60, 000
Americans - 40, 000
Thai - 16, 000
* Canadians - 10, 378
Cambodians - 6, 429
Russians - 5, 230
British - 2, 869
Australians - 2, 403 |
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lemak
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| I'm With You wrote: |
Canadians - They dominate the Korean TEFL scene, but not in Japan - Australians do. There are a lot of Australian and British TEFL teachers working in eikaiwa but for some reason the Canadians gravitate to Korea - or Taiwan. So for those canucks here who may be interested, not many Canadians teaching in Japan. I had read that at one point that before the major eikaiwa chain, NOVA, went bankrupt that nearly half of their 6, 000 teachers were Australians - many on Working Holiday Visas. |
That's interesting about Canadians, as I know only one here in Shanghai (and he is Canadian-Korean). I wonder why Korea seems to be the destination of choice. I get it that Korea still offers a good package overall, but other countries have scores of ESLers from of wide range of places (Canadians...not so much it seems). |
Yeah same for me in China. I know around 30 teachers here, and not one is Canadian. |
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jpe
Joined: 15 Aug 2011
Location: Seoul, SK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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I've been throwing around the idea of moving to Japan after finishing here in Korea as well.
What's the financial situation like if you have like 450$ (CAD/AMD) a month to pay back in student loans? I figured with the exchange rate that would be a much smaller percentage of my income than here, and I might actually be able to save a similar amount of money (though I realize that obviously depends on what kind of job I get over there). I can't ever seem to get a straight answer on what people actually pay to live there. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:19 am Post subject: |
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ive been thinking on that big post all day and the future here in Korea.
Japans economy doesnt seem to be so dependent on exports as here. There USED to be alot of internal consumer spending, but I dont know about know. I dont think Koreans really spend as much, do they? I guess their apartments, maybe the cars.
That said, I kind of disagree in that Koreans are motivated to learn English. They DO learn and want to pass those tests, but its not for the sake of anything outside their smallish worlds/circles. As we all know, those who do are a very small group. I think their xenophobia/nationalism has a place in their motivation, but take that away, you cant find much that they thrive on. Their society rests on that nationalism/xeno. I think its kind of a momenteum for them.
For the Japanese, I think its consumerism, and now that thats slowed down, Im not sure where Japan will go, but they still have a ton of creative companies (Im thinking fashion/electronics) and they have a history of great production and consumerism to refer to. Korea doesnt. I think Samsung is the first REAL power theyve ever had in the history of the nation, in that its a name to hook on to (well, Hyundae and Kia as well), and maybe cellphones are the niche theyve finally found (until the Chinese can raise their profile enough).
Now, will the Koreans give up on English like the Japanese did? Im not sure. They have a rather small pool of youngsters left and since I think Korea still cannot live without the outside world buying its Hyundae and Samsung, young people will still have to pass those tests/get into LG and Samsung, so English will still be a BIG necessity.
The difference is alot of Japanese youngsters kind of gave up/made families early/ and they can work in a variety of small businesses, while in Korea, those business dont exist. I think its the Confucianism/over-fast modernization (which left alot of whole in the scheme of things)/ pride / nationalxenophobia/ etc which keeps them locked into a way of living (the modern Korean way). It works for a nation, but not so much for indivualism. Even when I see young companies in fashion (which Im into), theyre not really very original, and the quality isnt so great (Im biased, as Im a big buyer of Japanese Denim, etc). I dont see alot of market for that stuff. I even look at the fashion mags I see pop up here (looktique/cracker) and I still dont see many people here wearing that boutique stuff. Maybe a few youngsters in Chungdam. I see the same as I always have, alot of cheap clothes and maybe a 100 dollar pair of Nikes. But I digress.
I hope that made some sense.....
oh as for the topic. Ive debated going back to Japan, aseven I prefer the Japanese infinitely more than the locals. I speak both Japanese and Korean, BUT Ive always found living here more comfortable for the reasons of yes, good money (Ive been lucky), and the locals dont bother me, so I have alot more freedom to move around. In Japan, I prefer to talk with the people, as the Japanese tend to be hobby-oriented and have many interests (like myself), but you cant argue with a good paycheck if you like that. I dont do salad days. Thats just me. Everyone is different arent they? |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gorf wrote: |
I went to Fukoka a few weeks ago.
Everything was clean and organized and well maintained.
No one stared at me, ever.
Interesting culture and people, food, scenery.
Pollution was nonexistent.
No trash anywhere.
Older, but more interesting public transit.
Same price for food. Same price for apartments, if not cheaper and bigger. Super expensive taxis, busses and subways.
Just walking around and checking out the city was interesting in itself. Japan is exactly like you've seen in movies, or in comics, or in photos. Korea looks nice in media, but it's actually pretty dumpy under the surface.
Amazing servWice at stores and restaurants. Super helpful and calm people.
I now definitely see why people call Korea "Japan's Mexico". My Japan-hating Korean S.O. even did a 180 and now wants to move there together on e she finishes her school. I couldn't agree more. Korea is a place to slum it for a few years and make a buck, Japan is a place to live. |
Well, if you've been to the newer areas, you'll see Korea isn't dumpy. Maybe in another 20 years, it'll look better. The "dumpy" places you see are hold overs from Korea's poorer past. I live in a new area with lots of green spaces, parks, new housing, ect. Quite nice. Japan's economy has been screwed for a long time. Many of those "nice buildings" come from it's richer past. Koreans are becoming more international minded all the time. Japanese behind the polite welcoming surface still have a mistrust of outsiders and will never fully accept you as one of their own. Korea still has a ways to go, but seem to be making progress on that front. I visited Tokyo a couple of years ago and found it a nice place to "visit". Too expensive to live there. Only thing I didn't like was scummy Nigerian guys trying to get me to go into their clubs. Fortunately, I said no and kept walking. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Gorf wrote: |
I went to Fukoka a few weeks ago.
Everything was clean and organized and well maintained.
No one stared at me, ever.
Interesting culture and people, food, scenery.
Pollution was nonexistent.
No trash anywhere.
Older, but more interesting public transit.
Same price for food. Same price for apartments, if not cheaper and bigger. Super expensive taxis, busses and subways.
Just walking around and checking out the city was interesting in itself. Japan is exactly like you've seen in movies, or in comics, or in photos. Korea looks nice in media, but it's actually pretty dumpy under the surface.
Amazing servWice at stores and restaurants. Super helpful and calm people.
I now definitely see why people call Korea "Japan's Mexico". My Japan-hating Korean S.O. even did a 180 and now wants to move there together on e she finishes her school. I couldn't agree more. Korea is a place to slum it for a few years and make a buck, Japan is a place to live. |
Well, if you've been to the newer areas, you'll see Korea isn't dumpy. Maybe in another 20 years, it'll look better. The "dumpy" places you see are hold overs from Korea's poorer past. I live in a new area with lots of green spaces, parks, new housing, ect. Quite nice. Japan's economy has been screwed for a long time. Many of those "nice buildings" come from it's richer past. Koreans are becoming more international minded all the time. Japanese behind the polite welcoming surface still have a mistrust of outsiders and will never fully accept you as one of their own. Korea still has a ways to go, but seem to be making progress on that front. I visited Tokyo a couple of years ago and found it a nice place to "visit". Too expensive to live there. Only thing I didn't like was scummy Nigerian guys trying to get me to go into their clubs. Fortunately, I said no and kept walking. |
good call on te Nigerians. Im guessing you were in Roppongi..Ive noticed quite a few of them in Seoul now, Im guessing theyll do the same in Itaewon one day soon.
and as far as the Japanese having a mistrust..Korea has the same "mistrust" but theyre more vocal about it. samesies samesies... I wouldnt declare one over the other... |
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Gorf
Joined: 25 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| As a contrast to I'm With You's post, most of that stuff will happen in Korea as well, and I get stared at more in 1 day than I was stared at in 2 weeks in Fukuoka. Not sure what you're smoking thinking that Kyushu and Fukuoka had xenophobic tendencies, I felt WAY more accepted there even as a casual observer than I have in my years in Korea. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gorf wrote: |
| As a contrast to I'm With You's post, most of that stuff will happen in Korea as well, and I get stared at more in 1 day than I was stared at in 2 weeks in Fukuoka. Not sure what you're smoking thinking that Kyushu and Fukuoka had xenophobic tendencies, I felt WAY more accepted there even as a casual observer than I have in my years in Korea. |
But it can be very misleading to compare places you live and work at least semi-permanently in with places you simply visit fairly briefly as a tourist.
I've come across quite a few western expats living in Fukuoka and other parts of Kyushu who felt pretty much the exact opposite of what you did - they found people to be friendlier in Korea than where they lived in Kyushu. Again, that doesn't really mean so much in the whole scheme of things as their comparison would've been coloured in the same, but opposite, way. When you're living and working in a place, you reach levels of frustration and discover irritations that you're not likely to get anywhere near on a short visit to somewhere. And when you're on holiday you tend to go with a happy mindset about the place and focus overly on the positive.
FWIW, I think it's a very valid point that negativity towards foreigners is as much, if not more an issue in Japan as in Korea, even if it might not initially be as apparent to some people. But I wouldn't agree that Fukuoka or Kyushu generally is any worse than anywhere else in Japan in that regard. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Gorf wrote: |
I went to Fukoka a few weeks ago.
Everything was clean and organized and well maintained.
No one stared at me, ever.
Interesting culture and people, food, scenery.
Pollution was nonexistent.
No trash anywhere.
Older, but more interesting public transit.
Same price for food. Same price for apartments, if not cheaper and bigger. Super expensive taxis, busses and subways.
Just walking around and checking out the city was interesting in itself. Japan is exactly like you've seen in movies, or in comics, or in photos. Korea looks nice in media, but it's actually pretty dumpy under the surface.
Amazing servWice at stores and restaurants. Super helpful and calm people.
I now definitely see why people call Korea "Japan's Mexico". My Japan-hating Korean S.O. even did a 180 and now wants to move there together on e she finishes her school. I couldn't agree more. Korea is a place to slum it for a few years and make a buck, Japan is a place to live. |
Well, if you've been to the newer areas, you'll see Korea isn't dumpy. Maybe in another 20 years, it'll look better. The "dumpy" places you see are hold overs from Korea's poorer past. I live in a new area with lots of green spaces, parks, new housing, ect. Quite nice. Japan's economy has been screwed for a long time. Many of those "nice buildings" come from it's richer past. Koreans are becoming more international minded all the time. Japanese behind the polite welcoming surface still have a mistrust of outsiders and will never fully accept you as one of their own. Korea still has a ways to go, but seem to be making progress on that front. I visited Tokyo a couple of years ago and found it a nice place to "visit". Too expensive to live there. Only thing I didn't like was scummy Nigerian guys trying to get me to go into their clubs. Fortunately, I said no and kept walking. |
good call on te Nigerians. Im guessing you were in Roppongi..Ive noticed quite a few of them in Seoul now, Im guessing theyll do the same in Itaewon one day soon.
and as far as the Japanese having a mistrust..Korea has the same "mistrust" but theyre more vocal about it. samesies samesies... I wouldnt declare one over the other... |
Yep, it was through Roppongi early in the evening. I later read about dudes getting their drinks spiked, ect. One Nigerian guy followed me up the street chatting with me until I got on the subway and left. Read they were in cohoots with the Yakuza and the police wouldn't do anything to help. Hope it doesn't, but Itaewon has always had it's sketchiness. I usually avoid it at night as I don't live in Seoul.
As for Korea, I've found Koreans seeming more friendly the past two to three years compared to before. More younger Koreans going abroad while I read here that younger Japanese are not. They have turned inward (prob because of their bad economy). Korea's renting system much better. No gift for the lanlord or real estate agent. Plenty of people who will rent to you, if you have the deposit. Less foriegner fear. Japanese have more exposure to foriegners but have always held themselves apart. Got that sense when I first got here in a rural area a few years ago. I live in a bigger city now and notice many Koreans being friendly.
If you're very rural or are dealing with an older Korean with "ajossi" syndrom, you'll still get those arrogant superiority racial pureness BS. But, I'd say on the whole many people here seem either friendly or indifferent. Get some stares and "handsome" comments from people sometimes, but I usually just laugh those off.
I did get the feeling Japanese liked that I was a visitor. Talked to an older Japanese woman at the tourist place who volunteered there and wanted to welcome me to Japan. Also talked to some "salarymen" in Tokyo noodle shops as they helped me order. Asked for directions a few times from people too. If I lived there, it might be different. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I have been reading Black Passenger Yellow Cabs: Of Exile and Excess in Japan on my kindle. It is about the experience of a Jamaican American who taught English in a small town in Japan. Most of the book is about the extremely promiscuous lifestyle that this teacher enjoyed in Japan, but he does make some interesting comparisons between Japan and Korea. He visited Korea during a vacation. He says he experienced more racism in one week in Korea than in his whole time in Japan. People avoided sitting next to him on subways and buses, he was told "no brack man" at nightclub entrances, and the women wanted nothing to do with him (not even most of the hookers). He lived in LA for a decade before moving to Japan. The racism he encountered in Korea reminded him of the tensions between that Koreans and blacks in LA. He says that Koreans arrive in a America with a condescending attitude towards other races (particularly blacks) while unknowingly benefiting from blacks' struggle for racial equality. In contrast, immigrants from other countries get along much better with blacks. Well that is one person's experience and perspective. |
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