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Times30
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
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 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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these are children, you know? no matter what else, they are children. I've heard students speak about "scary teachers" before...now I know why.
you need some serious therapy dude, or to get laid, am not sure which. |
Well first, despite wanting to be scary, none of my kids have actually said I'm scary as a teacher. And unfortunately I've become popular. My goal is to be hated by the students and for some reason they just won't hate me (Except like 2 kids I know, but even then, we talk about stuff like boxing and video games) They know that I'm strict for them. Not for myself. But for them.
Before class I give them this example.
"Alright guys Let's say you wanted to make a good strong, intelligent, capable person. Would you send them to the military? Or to the candy store.
Kids: Military
Me: Why?
Kids: Dunno.
Me: The reason why is because you and I, both know, that strength is born from hard times. Not easy times. The military doesn't make strong people with games or candy. Can you imagine the army saying 'ALRIGHT SOLIDERS heres some candy! SIT HERE AND EAT IT, and let's watch TV too! What would happen to those soldiers in battle? (kids laugh and joke). Yeah they would die, they would stand, get shot, and die. They would be weak blubbery fools.
etc etc etc Then I go on to explain this is why I teach them English, this is why I don't give candy, and this is why I don't play games. Because, I don't want them to go out into a world and get shot by employers, family, friends, and even future tests.
My kids KNOW, why I am strict, and I treat them like adults, not children. So that they can become like Adults.... Because that is the whole point of school is to BECOME LIKE AN ADULT. Not stay as children. School is training for the real world. And many teachers, and this is not a personal message LuckyLady, but millions of teachers and parents harp on the old saying "Kids should be kids" and thus, that philosophy has become so pertinent that now adults have become kids, because they are so well versed and trained in immaturity.
As an example, I teach all levels at my school and the most well behaved is my lower levels. Because, I've been able to train them. They have expectations. Do work, do it quietly, don't complain. But my higher levels are all messed up because the kids have been trained to be annoying. They complain about work, they moan, and they ask stupid inane derailing questions all the time, because past teachers have made it clear, that it is ok, and it is even acceptable. Despite their ages, levels, and intellectual capacities... it's VERY clear my grade 3 elementary kids will work for companies like Samsung, and some very intelligent but immature middle school 3rd graders are looking at a shiny future at Family Mart.
English is means to an end. And that end is that the kids get good jobs in the future. If we teach them English, but we fail to teach them the maturity and discipline to keep a job, then.... we've failed them. I don't want to look Hye-Yun in the eye and tell her, "Yeah you couldn't get that job at Hyundai because you are still don't know how to focus, make ridiculous demands, and the only English you know is like doggy and stars, because I wasn't serious enough to teach you the important business jargon you would actually need in the future."
Sorry Hye-Yun. I traded your future
for the smiles, the "teacher you are good", and popularity.
And this is what I see teachers many times do. (and I'm not saying this is you or any other teacher, I don't think anyone is cognizant or even aware of this). But a lot of teachers, focus so much on being popular, or getting the kids to like them, that they lose their power. They trade the core teaching values for popularity with their kids.
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Times30
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| RLib wrote: |
Thank you for all of the feedback, I appreciate it.
The school director, Korean teachers, and the previous Foreign teacher (in the notes he left for me), all told me that this class was difficult b/c of the students' behavior. To make matters worse, I started at the school the day after I arrived to Korea, and was literally just thrown into the classrooms with less than 20 minutes prep. It was literally, "Here is your schedule, here are the class books, here is your first class. Teach!" I knew this was a possibility, and had researched a bunch of educational games to play on the first day, which worked fine with the majority of the other classes-- I didn't lose control of them. But I was caught off guard with just how limited this class's English was and with their behavior, and the games I had used with the other classes didn't really work with them (ergo, resorting to hangman and pictionary...).
I'll separate the students and give assigned seating, as well as immediately discipline misbehaving students and make well structured lesson plans for each session. And I'll talk to the director and Korean english teach as well.
A few questions:
1. Would a U-shaped classroom arrangement work for a class like this?
2. Is it realistic to tell students they are not allowed to use Korean in the classroom?
3. Are there are any good assessment tests any of you would suggest? I think their current course books are too difficult for them, which leads to them not paying attention/not caring during the lesson. I'm allowed to change their books if needed, but I would like to get a better sense of their current level before doing so. |
First of all, I understand your situation. And that wasn't your fault the kids were out of hand. Because, you need PREPARATION if you are to control a class. A seating a chart, a plan, knowing what you are doing helps. Same thing happened to me. I was trained in a class... and thrown into a class that I wasn't trained in. I had to ask the kids what was next... very hard to control them after that. Hagwon/PS training is a joke. I could get into a whole other rant about how ppl who train teachers is an example of how flawed the system is but I won't.
Here are some general tips that help with control
1) Clothing. Again, this sounds psychotic, but I know this firsthand. How you dress and look has a direct effect on management. A Korean professor told me that, when she wore a skirt, her students listened to lecture, but if she wore pants they were dead to her. And I've experimented with it too. I have "very cool hair", when I wax and spike it, the kids will listen to me, and no joke, one day I didn't wax it like 2 years back and classes were OUT OF CONTROL. No one listened, everyone was bored, etc etc.
The reason? Korea is a very appearance country. People judge the validity and value of a person's ethos based on how they look.
Good looking = smart
Ugly = dumb
2) Class structure
Everyday should be the same. That's it
3) Competing for attention. You have to be both loud, and or more obnoxious than the most popular kids in the class initially. This is not ideal because we want to train kids to focus no matter what. But it's not like you are working with ideal students. Kids pay attention to annoying stuff, so in some way, you also have to be annoying to get attention. If their level is high enough, I recant some stories that they can relate to, maybe times where you were just like them, but don't ever say "I used to be just like you".
As for you the things you suggested
1) U shape in my personal experience doesn't work. But it could just be me. The best I've managed is desks by 2. The reason why it's effective is because it mimics public seating. And thus the kids expect your class to be like a Korean class and behave accordingly. This can backfire because if the students are goobers in public school, they will also be goobers in hagwon. But 90% for me this has been ideal.
2) No Korean can work. I have a rule, speak Korean 3 times I write your name on the board. Hit 3 and you do 15 pushups. (yeah they will). Do a total of 6 and get out of my class, parents called.
3) I've though of the same thing w/ assessment testing. It's a good idea but a lot more trouble. ESL is so scattered and un-uniform that it's not going to be accurate. I've found kids to be so disimilar to others in terms of level, vocabulary and grammar its impossible to gauge. If you want to get a sense of level, I think back to when I was learning spanish and "would I know this if I was learning spanish again?". It's helped me understand so many of their problems. If books are too hard, generally I dumb it down by saying words they will know and basically translating it for them. |
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Gorf
Joined: 25 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Controlling a class doesn't mean it can't be fun or enjoyable. Running it like a military will cause most kids to end up hating you, feeling bored, and making their parents remove them due to lack of edutainment. If you want control, the ultimate solution is to put an angry face on the board and when they misbehave, write their name under it. The consequence is the coup de gras: stay 5 minutes after class and review the lesson. Korean students hate static after class more than they love goofing off during the lesson, not paying attention, speaking out, not listening, or not trying to do the work. Seriously, it works. Give them checks, each one is worth 5 minutes more. As soon as try see you move tithe board, they'll all be like angels. Erase their checks or names if they do something right (paying close attention, trying to answer questions, correctly answering prompts, sitting up straight with their hands on their desks) and you'll be able to control them easily.
Also, you can use a smiley face with only one, two or three student's names. Each time they do well, put their name there and replace the previous students' names. Students will do their best to be on that list, if the reward is a caramel or something. Keep track every day and give the top students prizes at the end of the term. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Gorf's suggestion about using the board to indicate pleasure or displeasure in individual student behavior is something many do. It is similar to the clipboard tactic I mentioned above.
| Quote: |
| 2) Class structure Everyday should be the same. That's it |
This is true but I wouldn't say "should." Being a new teacher, I think he'd be better off in the long run using a class like this as a guinea pig.
No amount of training or research in methodology can compare with on the job training. I believe in checking out what other teachers have to say in TESOL journals and what not - or like here -
-- but, each teacher has to figure out what styles work for him in different settings. Experimenting a lot your first year teaches you a lot. It does hamper stability in the class, but it pays off in future semesters.
- I wouldn't try the strict drill sgt method Times30 advocates unless it was a class of juvenile delinquents and you had issues like fighting and theft and bullying going on.
In most cases, you can apply other means to get the minimum amount of cooperation you need.
However, a book we had to read in an education program was Fires in the Bathroom. http://www.amazon.com/Fires-Bathroom-Advice-Teachers-Students/dp/1565848020
It interviewed lots of students to get their take on classroom managment issues, and one interesting thing was how many of the troubled students said the teachers they respected were the tough ones who were also consistent and fair. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Buy them orange juice or pizza every day and they will like you. |
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Squire
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
these are children, you know? no matter what else, they are children. I've heard students speak about "scary teachers" before...now I know why.
you need some serious therapy dude, or to get laid, am not sure which. |
He/she sounds like they know what they're doing, to me. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Times30 wrote: |
| I treat them like adults, not children. So that they can become like Adults.... Because that is the whole point of school is to BECOME LIKE AN ADULT. Not stay as children. |
actually the point of school is academic education.
further, one does not become "like an adult" rather, one will mature over time and become an adult.
why would you have an issue treating children as children anyway? it's well documented that children perceive the world differently than adults and at different ages demonstrate different levels of cognizance before reaching an adult level of thinking and perception. |
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nero
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| Times30 wrote: |
| I treat them like adults, not children. So that they can become like Adults.... Because that is the whole point of school is to BECOME LIKE AN ADULT. Not stay as children. |
actually the point of school is academic education.
further, one does not become "like an adult" rather, one will mature over time and become an adult.
why would you have an issue treating children as children anyway? it's well documented that children perceive the world differently than adults and at different ages demonstrate different levels of cognizance before reaching an adult level of thinking and perception. |
Wow, times30 sounds completely over the top. I guess if it works for him/her...
I think it is important to find a middle ground and be consistent. My classes are fun, my students like me and the classroom is 100% Korean free. Even the low level first graders. It is important to have a few ground rules and stick to them. Go over them every day at the beginning of class. Let the students know what the result of bad behaviour will be. When I say 'stop' my students stop and listen. You don't have to be a bitch to get respect. Times30 is controlling through fear, which may work, for him/her, but sounds very stressful to me. I don't want my students to hate English.
*I must add, don't make the mistake of being the students 'friend.' You are their teacher. You can have fun, and be interested in them, but don't cross the line or you will lose authority. Teaching is a balancing game and how you play each class changes due to different dynamics. |
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Times30
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| Times30 wrote: |
| I treat them like adults, not children. So that they can become like Adults.... Because that is the whole point of school is to BECOME LIKE AN ADULT. Not stay as children. |
actually the point of school is academic education.
further, one does not become "like an adult" rather, one will mature over time and become an adult.
why would you have an issue treating children as children anyway? it's well documented that children perceive the world differently than adults and at different ages demonstrate different levels of cognizance before reaching an adult level of thinking and perception. |
Because children are stupid, empty vessels, that aren't ready for the real world. That's why we teach them to become adults so they can prepare themselves and make them self-sufficient, mature, prepared intellects. Example, my kids think sticking their tongue out is hilarious. I could laugh it off and be like "awww cute". But what if someday they decide to take that outside to a drunken man? I don't want my kids doing something dumb and getting hurt. So I tell them, HEY! be respectful or else you will get beaten. And it's true. Our job is to tell them how it is, and mimic the real world and expectations for them as much as possible to prepare them for the future.
Otherwise why wouldn't we just tell kids that Santa Klaus, the Easter bunny, and Cinderella exist? Because it doesn't help them in the future. Giving kids the idea they can do whatever they want, act lazy, and act stupid....is pretty dumb. So are fictional stories. Some kids don't even grow out of fictional stories. Women this generation are still plagued by "prince charming" expectations and cannot get married because of it. Something very tiny can grow into something very big.
Another one of my students watches dumb movies about gangstas. Sounds benign but he started making wooden knifes and bringing it to class. And then he upped the ante to a kitchen knife. He's already well on his way to jail and I tried my best to stop it. But his parents simply complained and said it was "nothing" and tried to shrug it off. His expectations are already molding into anti-social behavior.
And no, academics is not the end result. That's merely the means to the ends. And the ends is ultimately that children achieve their goals with a good job, healthy relationships, and high functioning in society. One can abscond with the disciplinary fundamentals, but then, ultimately why would we teach or educate potential serial killers, janitors, or anti-socials? I doubt that any school or academy is happy to churn out blubbery idiots that can speak English really well.
I'm not letting children running around my room screaming and pulling candy from my pockets (which has happened when I was still dumb). Because that only reinforces childish expectations. And children still believe they can get away with it, and that expectation can last until high school, and then even college. And yes I have seen it. I know college students that still think, being lazy, procrastinating, stealing, and cheating are all proper ways to get ahead (And hence, the root of pretty much all anti-social behavior is on our shoulders).
Teach them early, stop them now... to prevent damage in the future.
To say children will learn later, is passing responsibility to the future, and giving faith that the future will teach children the proper way. Then why would we even bother teaching them? Let's just pass the torch of responsibility... until they get older. Because.... they will most definitely learn proper ways... not from us the teacher (sarcasm is on in case no one has noticed) to the future, because they will learn from someone. Not us, but someone.
The persuasive idea that "kids will learn it over time" is another pop-physch myth which honestly irks me. We're assuming that they will learn maturity naturally without any helping hand. But what if they don't? Clearly their parents haven't helped them in the fundamental stages, what is to stop them from continuing the path to idiocy? Absolutely nothing, and the idea that maturity comes with age is a complete miscarriage of knowledge. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Times30 wrote: |
| Quote: |
these are children, you know? no matter what else, they are children. I've heard students speak about "scary teachers" before...now I know why.
you need some serious therapy dude, or to get laid, am not sure which. |
Well first, despite wanting to be scary, none of my kids have actually said I'm scary as a teacher. And unfortunately I've become popular. My goal is to be hated by the students and for some reason they just won't hate me (Except like 2 kids I know, but even then, we talk about stuff like boxing and video games) They know that I'm strict for them. Not for myself. But for them.
Before class I give them this example.
"Alright guys Let's say you wanted to make a good strong, intelligent, capable person. Would you send them to the military? Or to the candy store.
Kids: Military
Me: Why?
Kids: Dunno.
Me: The reason why is because you and I, both know, that strength is born from hard times. Not easy times. The military doesn't make strong people with games or candy. Can you imagine the army saying 'ALRIGHT SOLIDERS heres some candy! SIT HERE AND EAT IT, and let's watch TV too! What would happen to those soldiers in battle? (kids laugh and joke). Yeah they would die, they would stand, get shot, and die. They would be weak blubbery fools.
etc etc etc Then I go on to explain this is why I teach them English, this is why I don't give candy, and this is why I don't play games. Because, I don't want them to go out into a world and get shot by employers, family, friends, and even future tests.
My kids KNOW, why I am strict, and I treat them like adults, not children. So that they can become like Adults.... Because that is the whole point of school is to BECOME LIKE AN ADULT. Not stay as children. School is training for the real world. And many teachers, and this is not a personal message LuckyLady, but millions of teachers and parents harp on the old saying "Kids should be kids" and thus, that philosophy has become so pertinent that now adults have become kids, because they are so well versed and trained in immaturity.
As an example, I teach all levels at my school and the most well behaved is my lower levels. Because, I've been able to train them. They have expectations. Do work, do it quietly, don't complain. But my higher levels are all messed up because the kids have been trained to be annoying. They complain about work, they moan, and they ask stupid inane derailing questions all the time, because past teachers have made it clear, that it is ok, and it is even acceptable. Despite their ages, levels, and intellectual capacities... it's VERY clear my grade 3 elementary kids will work for companies like Samsung, and some very intelligent but immature middle school 3rd graders are looking at a shiny future at Family Mart.
English is means to an end. And that end is that the kids get good jobs in the future. If we teach them English, but we fail to teach them the maturity and discipline to keep a job, then.... we've failed them. I don't want to look Hye-Yun in the eye and tell her, "Yeah you couldn't get that job at Hyundai because you are still don't know how to focus, make ridiculous demands, and the only English you know is like doggy and stars, because I wasn't serious enough to teach you the important business jargon you would actually need in the future."
Sorry Hye-Yun. I traded your future
for the smiles, the "teacher you are good", and popularity.
And this is what I see teachers many times do. (and I'm not saying this is you or any other teacher, I don't think anyone is cognizant or even aware of this). But a lot of teachers, focus so much on being popular, or getting the kids to like them, that they lose their power. They trade the core teaching values for popularity with their kids.
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Except they still are kids and the Korean adults usually cuddle them in some ways in spite of the pressure to study. I can agree with much of what you say. There's time to be hard, but there's also times to lighten up. Giving candy once in a while is ok, but don't do it often.
ALso, depends on your environment. Some places just want the kids to like you so they get more money, positive reviews, ect. If it's a hakwon, ask the owner or director what is most important to them and what they are looking for. Then craft your strategy around this. |
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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Kids love to get out of class. It doesn't matter how much they enjoy the class or how much they hate it, they always want to leave.
One way that you could get control is to write everyone's name on the board at the beginning of class. Someone acts up, they get an X next to their name. Don't even tell them why you're doing it. 3 or 4 minutes before the end of class, tell the student with the fewest number of Xs "Jung Min, you were pretty good today. You can leave now. Bye!" And usher that student to the door. Wait about 30 seconds before letting the next one leave and so on.
Simple, yet effective. |
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