|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| cj1976 wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
"No, but you do have to be to hold it up as some kind of special example of human behaviour that is wholly different from any other place in the world."
This is a General Discussion Forum about South Korea. People are just venting about the things they are exposed to and affect them on a daily basis. True, some people whine and bitch outrageously over the most minor of things, which do happen all around the world, but when the apologists chime in "It's the same back home", it is kind of dodging the issue at hand.
If something sucks here, comparing it to something in another country doesn't make it alright. |
No, but it makes the person whining seem like nothing more than a crybaby which is what most the threads I see are. It's like the people who are here never spent a day in the real world before coming here.
The fact that it happens all over the world is a good indication that people should probably strap on their big boy helmet and get over it.
The issue at hand is, if the behaviour really does happen everywhere else, why would you not expect it here, and why would you feel the need to harp about it and often make it seem as if it's something unique to Korea?
If these people complained half as much as they do here back home home, someone somewhere would end up punching them in the face |
While I do agree there is a lot of whining here, some people have had experiences here that probably would never happen back home. Being turned away from a business or rejected by a potential employer, because of your race or nationality, being automatically labelled as a potential AIDS carrier / drug user (again because of your race and natonality), being powerless to do anything in these situations. Korea is highly developed in so many respects, but sadly basic social equality is not one of them. There are a lot of areas that Korea is decades behind in. |
*yawn*
Korean teachers get tested too. It's these kinds of statements that completely undermine any point you might have been trying to make.
and as far as jobs go.. there is plenty of discrimination in the west, most of the people here have never had to deal with it because they're white, and it's not quite so overt. They don't tell you they only want to hire a white guy. They just happen to do it without saying anything. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| alongway wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
"No, but you do have to be to hold it up as some kind of special example of human behaviour that is wholly different from any other place in the world."
This is a General Discussion Forum about South Korea. People are just venting about the things they are exposed to and affect them on a daily basis. True, some people whine and bitch outrageously over the most minor of things, which do happen all around the world, but when the apologists chime in "It's the same back home", it is kind of dodging the issue at hand.
If something sucks here, comparing it to something in another country doesn't make it alright. |
No, but it makes the person whining seem like nothing more than a crybaby which is what most the threads I see are. It's like the people who are here never spent a day in the real world before coming here.
The fact that it happens all over the world is a good indication that people should probably strap on their big boy helmet and get over it.
The issue at hand is, if the behaviour really does happen everywhere else, why would you not expect it here, and why would you feel the need to harp about it and often make it seem as if it's something unique to Korea?
If these people complained half as much as they do here back home home, someone somewhere would end up punching them in the face |
While I do agree there is a lot of whining here, some people have had experiences here that probably would never happen back home. Being turned away from a business or rejected by a potential employer, because of your race or nationality, being automatically labelled as a potential AIDS carrier / drug user (again because of your race and natonality), being powerless to do anything in these situations. Korea is highly developed in so many respects, but sadly basic social equality is not one of them. There are a lot of areas that Korea is decades behind in. |
*yawn*
Korean teachers get tested too. It's these kinds of statements that completely undermine any point you might have been trying to make.
and as far as jobs go.. there is plenty of discrimination in the west, most of the people here have never had to deal with it because they're white, and it's not quite so overt. They don't tell you they only want to hire a white guy. They just happen to do it without saying anything. |
Ok, maybe I was just spouting a little but the basic point was that Korea is lacking in areas of social equality. Glossing over it is ridiculous and is every bit as stupid as the haters who whine too much. You need to be fair in your assessments. Korea is an okay, sometimes great, place to be but it does need to sort out a few things. The OP was the victim of a cowardly attack and he somehow comes off being punished more harshly than the 'man' who attacked him. That is not right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
themagicbean
Joined: 04 Feb 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
What does everyone who answered you have in common?
They have incredibly little to no knowledge of Korean law. The smartest ones told you to get a lawyer. But lawyers are 3-5M to start. And do you know which ones are good and speak good English? Not the ones that handle this kind of stuff, they're doing international financial deals.
But there are pro bono groups/clinics. Seoul Global could probably turn you on to them. At least maybe you could get some introductory counseling on the process. You'll then need to weigh your options (cost of lawyer vs savings anticipated). If you aren't lawyered up you will at least need a translator to deal with the police and process (neither police nor courts provide translators here and before anyone bashes this country they were pretty rare at best (free ones are nonexistent in civil court) in the U.S. as well).
Make no assumptions about the legal system. Everything here is different. Police mediate most disputes, "blood money" is a part of that. (Read this http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2011/04/what-is-all-this-about-blood-money.html and note the Korean NY DA's opinion on most foreigner knowledge of the legal system here.) You are at a distinct disadvantage being non-Korean (for language if nothing else, but also because of biases and connections). I have heard the right to self-defense is limited / nonexistant but, having only published in a few Korean legal journals, I will do what most posters didn't and just admit I don't really know.
Good luck. Seek out the pro bono groups first, sort the rest out later. But trumping up your injuries (within reason, maximize actual loss, don't fictionalize) and adding a defamation counterclaim aren't the worst advice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Side note: complaining about something is natural and a good venting mechanism. Taking a personnal complaint and aplying it to an entire country is dumb. |
Except that that very rarely happens. Usually people vent and say 'I don't like the way Koreans do such and such' (because they've heard about similar things happening to the majority of the foreigners they know, have read about it happening regularly in blogs on the internet and even in books written about Korea) and you and a few others attack them for doing what you said above although most of the time they're just identifying certain tendencies they've noticed themselves and heard/read about from many other sources. . As you well know, they're not applying it to the entire nation as that would be ludicrous. What I personally think is dumb is people who refuse to accept that nationalities can display certain tendencies, some of which might be negative, that are different from others. Some of your rhetoric seems to suggest that it's wrong even to think that a particular nationality might have a propensity to behave in a certain way. For me that is 'political correctness gone mad' as we say in the UK. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cj1976 wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
"No, but you do have to be to hold it up as some kind of special example of human behaviour that is wholly different from any other place in the world."
This is a General Discussion Forum about South Korea. People are just venting about the things they are exposed to and affect them on a daily basis. True, some people whine and bitch outrageously over the most minor of things, which do happen all around the world, but when the apologists chime in "It's the same back home", it is kind of dodging the issue at hand.
If something sucks here, comparing it to something in another country doesn't make it alright. |
No, but it makes the person whining seem like nothing more than a crybaby which is what most the threads I see are. It's like the people who are here never spent a day in the real world before coming here.
The fact that it happens all over the world is a good indication that people should probably strap on their big boy helmet and get over it.
The issue at hand is, if the behaviour really does happen everywhere else, why would you not expect it here, and why would you feel the need to harp about it and often make it seem as if it's something unique to Korea?
If these people complained half as much as they do here back home home, someone somewhere would end up punching them in the face |
While I do agree there is a lot of whining here, some people have had experiences here that probably would never happen back home. Being turned away from a business or rejected by a potential employer, because of your race or nationality, being automatically labelled as a potential AIDS carrier / drug user (again because of your race and natonality), being powerless to do anything in these situations. Korea is highly developed in so many respects, but sadly basic social equality is not one of them. There are a lot of areas that Korea is decades behind in. |
Because they're white.
My roomate back home has gotten DWBd multiple times. I've been with groups of Asians (dorky types) turned away form clubs for looking "thug" or "sorry, full". Arab-American friends called terrorists. Protests outside their mosque. Applications dumped in the wastebasket because the person was black or gay. Going to concerts and having to make sure not to stand too close to the skinheads. "Country" bars and having to make sure I'm "vouched for". Johnny Rebel blasting on the stereo.
Sorry, but anyone who acts like this is some big shock just shows their naivety. I will agree that they public reaction to being told about such things is different back home, for the most part. But there is a MASSIVE undercurrent of racism back home. Not just amongst "working class" folk, but amongst educated, professional people as well.
That don't make what's happening here right.
| Quote: |
| Except that that very rarely happens. Usually people vent and say 'I don't like the way Koreans do such and such' and you and a few others attack them for doing what you said above although most of the time they're just identifying certain tendencies they've noticed. As you well know, they're not applying it to the entire nation as that would be ludicrous. What I personally think is dumb is people who refuse to accept that nationalities can display certain tendencies, some of which might be negative, that are different from others. Some of your rhetoric seems to suggest that it's wrong even to think that a particular nationality might have a propensity to behave in a certain way. For me that is 'political correctness gone mad' as we say in the UK. |
Yeah, considering everyone here is all smiles when Koreans say "I don't like when foreigners do such and such"...After all, we know they aren't applying it to foreigners as a whole. Since Koreans display certain tendencies, do you think foreigners do as well?
Or is it better to do unto others as we would have done unto ourselves and not lob judgmental bombs? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote]Yeah, considering everyone here is all smiles when Koreans say "I don't like when foreigners do such and such"...After all, we know they aren't applying it to foreigners as a whole. Since Koreans display certain tendencies, do you think foreigners do as well?
quote]
Yes of course they do. I can think of many times in adult class rooms when I've admitted that British people have a tendency to eat unhealthy food, have kids outside marriage, commit crime, binge drink, fail to learn foreign languages etc... It's no big deal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| alongway wrote: |
The issue at hand is, if the behaviour really does happen everywhere else, why would you not expect it here, and why would you feel the need to harp about it and often make it seem as if it's something unique to Korea?
|
Because there is a notion that Koreans are morally superior and therefore incapable of committing some crimes without being provoked by foreign influences. I do think this is unique to a select few countries, South Korea being one of them. Of course, I have to add I don't think all Koreans believe this. However, I've found people vent here because they can't vent to their korean coworkers or friends without the risk of being ostracized or being labeled a "person who hates koreans".
I think some people are in denial about their status as a foreigner in Korea, so they are trying to convince themselves incidents like this never happen here unless they are provoked by an idiot foreigner. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there are good Koreans and bad Koreans, just like every other country. There are also crazy people that will assault you at random in every country. It is very well possible the OP was minding his business and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="edwardcatflap"]
| Quote: |
Yeah, considering everyone here is all smiles when Koreans say "I don't like when foreigners do such and such"...After all, we know they aren't applying it to foreigners as a whole. Since Koreans display certain tendencies, do you think foreigners do as well?
quote]
Yes of course they do. I can think of many times in adult class rooms when I've admitted that British people have a tendency to eat unhealthy food, have kids outside marriage, commit crime, binge drink, fail to learn foreign languages etc... It's no big deal. |
So you would ascribe your opinion to the Dave's basher crowd as a whole?
Come on man... its one thing in an adults class...its another when some Daum chatroom knuckleheads are ranting about the evil waygookin and their ways.
"Foreigners are all drunken losers who can't get a job back home."
Is that just "ranting/venting"? I don't think so. Some of the stuff said about Korean people is the equivalent of that. It's not venting. It's bigotry and racism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
So you would ascribe your opinion to the Dave's basher crowd as a whole?
Come on man... its one thing in an adults class...its another when some Daum chatroom knuckleheads are ranting about the evil waygookin and their ways.
"Foreigners are all drunken losers who can't get a job back home."
Is that just "ranting/venting"? I don't think so. Some of the stuff said about Korean people is the equivalent of that. It's not venting. It's bigotry and racism |
Of course it's a fine line between observations on negative characteristics and abuse. I'd be more likely to argue against a Korean who had made an innocent, but erroneous assumption about people from my country than someone who was just having a go. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| [Except that that very rarely happens. Usually people vent and say 'I don't like the way Koreans do such and such' (. |
venting is overrated. And contrary to popular opinion it is not healthy either in the slightest. In fact it DOES have the opposite effect.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=4176825&page=1
| Quote: |
Mind-body researcher Dr. Redford Williams, in the department of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center, said that venting your anger is, in fact, quite unhealthy. With his wife, Virginia, Williams has written two books on anger management: "Anger Kills: Seventeen Strategies for Controlling the Hostility That Can Harm Your Health" and "In Control: No More Snapping at Your Family, Sulking at Work, Steaming in the Grocery Line, Seething in Meetings, Stuffing Your Frustration."
When you vent your anger, "your blood pressure's going up more, your adrenaline levels are going up more. You're nicking those arteries a little bit more," Williams said.
"When you are getting angry, things are happening inside your body that are taking hours, days, years off your life," he explained. "The research is unequivocal in this. It shows that people who get angry a lot, every day, are more likely to die by age 50." |
(bolding mine)
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| and you and a few others attack them for doing what you said |
Nah we're just trying to help them live longer.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
edwardcatflap wrote:
[Except that that very rarely happens. Usually people vent and say 'I don't like the way Koreans do such and such' (.
venting is overrated. And contrary to popular opinion it is not healthy either in the slightest. In fact it DOES have the opposite effect.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=4176825&page=1
Quote:
Mind-body researcher Dr. Redford Williams, in the department of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center, said that venting your anger is, in fact, quite unhealthy. With his wife, Virginia, Williams has written two books on anger management: "Anger Kills: Seventeen Strategies for Controlling the Hostility That Can Harm Your Health" and "In Control: No More Snapping at Your Family, Sulking at Work, Steaming in the Grocery Line, Seething in Meetings, Stuffing Your Frustration."
When you vent your anger, "your blood pressure's going up more, your adrenaline levels are going up more. You're nicking those arteries a little bit more," Williams said.
"When you are getting angry, things are happening inside your body that are taking hours, days, years off your life," he explained. "The research is unequivocal in this. It shows that people who get angry a lot, every day, are more likely to die by age 50."
(bolding mine)
edwardcatflap wrote:
and you and a few others attack them for doing what you said
Nah we're just trying to help them live longer.
|
So all those years when doctors/women told you it was better to get things off your chest were all in vain. We can go back to the silent brooding/sulking mode now? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Side note: complaining about something is natural and a good venting mechanism. Taking a personnal complaint and aplying it to an entire country is dumb. |
Except that that very rarely happens. Usually people vent and say 'I don't like the way Koreans do such and such' (because they've heard about similar things happening to the majority of the foreigners they know, have read about it happening regularly in blogs on the internet and even in books written about Korea) and you and a few others attack them for doing what you said above although most of the time they're just identifying certain tendencies they've noticed themselves and heard/read about from many other sources. . As you well know, they're not applying it to the entire nation as that would be ludicrous. What I personally think is dumb is people who refuse to accept that nationalities can display certain tendencies, some of which might be negative, that are different from others. Some of your rhetoric seems to suggest that it's wrong even to think that a particular nationality might have a propensity to behave in a certain way. For me that is 'political correctness gone mad' as we say in the UK. |
Take a GOOD look at a lot of the threads here Ed. It does not happen rarely. In fact it is pretty common place. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dreaded209 wrote: |
| nora wrote: |
You're not guilty until a judge declares you guilty or you plead to it in court. Did you sign anything saying that you waive your right to a trial? Did you plead guilty?
The system works that generally, you have a couple of weeks to work out a deal. Sure, the cops are involved during this time, but generally, if you work out a deal, it goes away. People complain about it, but it's a good system. It doesn't tie up the legal system, it doesn't put a black mark on your record, things get resolved.
BUT, if people CAN'T agree, then it goes to court and you have a trial. And, believe it or not, the system here is very much like back in the west. If they can't prove anything, then you're free and clear. But, if YOU can't prove anything, THEY are free and clear.
If you truly believe you did absolutely, 100% nothing wrong, then take it to court. If your friend was pissing down the road, did they take pictures? If he was peeing, why did they attack you? Was attacking you a justifiable response to the situation?
The upside is that you can get away without paying the guy anything, if you can prove he unjustly attacked you and you were defending yourself. The downside is that they could convict you and you'd pay a large fine. You could even face jail time, but from the sounds of this situation, I highly doubt it.
I was involved in the legal system here and I knew I had broken the law (not fighting or anything, a traffic accident with injuries), so rather than go to court and fight it, I paid. When we negotiated, I pointed out that the maximum fine was less than they were asking for, so I could just as easily go to court and pay the government and they'd get nothing from me, OR they could accept a lower arrangement (i paid all the medical bills, they wanted a lot extra, i paid a little extra - they were not entirely blameless in said accident!).
For everyone - if you're ever in this situation, find a lawyer and get some sound advice. Sometimes, it's totally in your favor to just pay the blood money and get it over with. Other times, it's a good idea to fight it.
OP, as others said, talk to a lawyer, be 100% honest about everything, see what he says. if you fight it, the stakes are bigger, but you could come out on top.
good luck |
This is some good advice....also....
| Smithington wrote: |
| I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but if the guy phoned your school and blackened your name, that's slander. It's taken pretty seriously here. And if the cops gave him your work address (scumbags) you might have a bit of money coming your way. At the very least you should use the threat of a lawsuit against them during your next meeting. If nothing else it serves as leverage. If you take a lawyer with you (as suggested) have him threaten them with a slander lawsuit. |
Very good point here, legal advice should be sought.
Honestly after the continual debacle from MBC and its slander against "foreigners" in Korea, it's disgusting, but not surprising to see people react like this (albeit those that don't question things or engage in critical thinking)
I met a Canadian guy this last weekend who lives in Gangwondo, and he strikes me (over several hours and even after a heavy night  ) as the guy who wouldn't hurt a fly...yet he mentioned to me how he was walking with his girlfriend (Korean) and an older man walked up to her, screamed "씨빨' and slapped her hard across the face. he froze, not as a coward but in pure shock and horror. he wanted to do something but the girl said not to. (if you don't know, "씨빨' (ssibal) was the word for the sex workers during the Japanese time of occupation...specifically those who had to have abortions...if you get me....so its a bit weightier than the simple English term SL*T)
....anyways, the point is that there is clearly a race issue here...so the "apologists" and those keeping the blinders on to stay happy in their ignorance need to wake up. I know loads of amazing people, in fact I have more Korean friends than foreigners and I would go to bat for them every time. BUT it's not all roses and sunshine-sparkle..ok? There is some serious xenophobia sometimes and it needs to be addressed.
However this case might not be the perfect time, you need to seek advice and see what the lawyers say. I would recommend maybe looking into the slander and defamation of character, but that's up to you of course.
Myself, I think some thought might be given to bringing this up with some media/international organizations (amnesty or something)...don't forget the head of the UN is Korean, Korea isn't the "nowhere" place it was 20 years ago...despite its desperate need for growth in cultural/social circles.
(which is evident even in those who come here, judging by the sheer-b*stardness of some of these replies..which aren't even on topic...so apologies for going off myself but i wanted to address the collective f**kwittery going on here...for those who are reading the OP and the replies, then thank you on behalf of common decency)
Good luck, if this doesn't **end well I give up...well, I will give leaving serious thought. I am not a number-I AM A FREE MAN!
(**i.e. If you have to pay more as a teacher and there's nothing you can do about the police giving him all your info and the school not verifying the court/legal proceedings while also telling you to pay him)
Honestly...it's a travesty...even if the VP of your school throws out the "bone" of the opinion of the attacker being "greedy" I can't even believe it as i type it, "pay the ATTACKER"...seriously there is something fishy about that situation if you ask me...at least from how it has been described, it sounds very odd...even more so considering that there has apparently been a court proceeding that you were unaware of (were you?)
..as much as I have loved it over the last 9-10 years this place needs a serious overhaul, as do a fair few of these posters.
Ignoring the problems in a society is as bad as making them and actually less productive than overreacting to them (at least that would bring attention to the issue) we must always speak up and out against such things or we condemn ourselves as being slaves and taking the ignorant apologist route is nothing but self-deprecating, it really is. |
+1. It's easy to bury your head. But when it happens to you, it won't be so fun. Though safe, things do occasionally happen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
By all means be aware of what happens, stand up for yourself when it is time to do so and try to effect change where you feel you can. No one will debate this.
Also, this fallacy about apologists is getting out of control. NO ONE here has ever said Korea was perfect, all roses or without blemish. No one has even come close to saying this. A few people however have used the term apologist to simplify their arguments and because it makes for a neat little attack tool. It also fits in real well with making the accuser look smart because the typical regurgitated apologist line goes : apologists are blind, they see it all as roses while I see clearly.
So yeah, dreaded, made good use of that tool and conveniently made yourself look aware and clued in as opposed to those blind apologist. The problem is that those apologists do not exist, they are just a tool you use to make yourself look smarter and more aware about the REAL Korea. In opposition those fabled apologist cannot engage in critical thinking and are basically morons. Yeah thats a realistic view.
Most people in this thread advised the OP to get legal representation, including some of the so called apologists. You want to propose the OOP goes to Amnesty international, some of the apologists propose getting legal representation...who is deluded here?
As for your final flourish..well
| Quote: |
| Ignoring the problems in a society is as bad as making them and actually less productive than overreacting to them (at least that would bring attention to the issue) we must always speak up and out against such things or we condemn ourselves as being slaves and taking the ignorant apologist route is nothing but self-deprecating, it really is. |
condem ourselves as being slaves???
Good lord this is ridiculous beyond words.
How the hell do you know what those you call apologists have done or gone through? You assume a lot and are pretty generous with the insults but how do you know what they have done when faced with issues or problems? How do you know they did not fight for their rights? What the hell do you know about what they did to try and make changes in their workplaces? What have YOU done?
Its easy to tag people as blind ignorant apologists on an online forum isn't it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just a side note and in no way an interjection into this discussion that has gone way off topic...
But I would add concerning Patrick's comments, that the folks generally coined "apologists" are generally the more grounded folks into Korean society, long term folks with a vested interest in Korea (wife/kids/jobs beyond hagwons...etc) who have been through firsthand many of the situations that get posted here. As mentioned people use the term to make all sorts of accusations, but at the end of the day, the "apologists" tend to be on average the folks most well informed about the society and the ins and outs of this or that situation
Think what one will about their/our opinions, but one would be wise to take into consideration the experiences and testimony of such people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
