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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: |
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iggyb
With 100% certainty...YTMND is wrong.
Your earlier sentences were fine.
YTMND is either joking or has no concept of article usage in English.
Articles do not dictate singular or plural...they lend clarity to definiteness.
Indefinite vs definite...not singular vs plural.
A poster was asking a question. (indefinite singular)
The poster was asking a question (definite singular)
The posters were asking a question. (definite plural)
The examples are endless. (definite plural)
Hint: Have you ever heard of The Twin Towers?
This is not controversial in the least. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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"The Eiffel towers" -- I couldn't remember off the top of my head having heard that. I could only think of hearing "The Eiffel tower"...
I thought maybe it was a British English phrase... |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Articles do not dictate singular or plural...they lend clarity to definiteness. |
I didn't say they dictate anything.
That's why I needed "Eiffel Tower".
Eiffel Tower is NOT an article. Why do you assume Eiffel Tower is an article?  |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Have you ever heard of the Eiffel towers? |
Well, then, the answer is no, but only because there is only 1 of them.
I have heard of the apples or the knives or the -s.
When I was initially thinking about the question, I did wonder if "the" was a number indicator like "a" but could think of examples where it is used with singular and plural nouns. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Again, when I said "The Eiffel Tower" I was referring to the "Eiffel Tower", one, not the "the" in "The Eiffel Tower".
The "latter" would be more like "Eiffel Tower".
Do we say "The latters"? Think about it.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=300456
The group is.....
The group are..... |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Group is singular.
"The groups are..." is normal.
"The members of the group are..." is also correct. You have two "the"s in that example - the noun that controls the agreement of the verb is the first "members" as the subject of the sentence. So, "the members" is in control - not "the group".
In the sentence with "the latter", you have to refer back to what the latter is substituting for, because the latter can replace a singular or plural noun.
"Latter" doesn't indicate number. It indicates position in the previous sentence. The latter noun used. The former indicates the first noun used.
So, again, that is why you have to know what the latter noun was in order to determine which form of the verb to use. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| iggyb wrote: |
Group is singular.
"The groups are..." is normal.
"The members of the group are..." is also correct. You have two "the"s in that example - the noun that controls the agreement of the verb is the first "members" as the subject of the sentence. So, "the members" is in control - not "the group".
In the sentence with "the latter", you have to refer back to what the latter is substituting for, because the latter can replace a singular or plural noun.
"Latter" doesn't indicate number. It indicates position in the previous sentence. The latter noun used. The former indicates the first noun used.
So, again, that is why you have to know what the latter noun was in order to determine which form of the verb to use. |
Nicely written summary on 'the latter' iggyb.
As for 'group'...there is a bit of controversy over this.
It stems from British and American usage.
Some choose to use singular and others choose to use plural when they use collective nouns.
ie.
Samsung is going to have a sale.
Samsung are going to have a sale.
Both are correct usage.
As you said...when people use "The group are...."...they are specifically referring to 'The members of the group are....' |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I thought one of the people on the thread linked by YTMND said what I also think:
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The word "latter" is an adjective. Adjectives in English do not have grammatical number, and the same form is used for singular and plural:
One red car
Three thousand red cars.
When adjectives are treated as nouns, they still do not have plural forms. One may speak of helping "the poor", or admiring "the talented", or fearing "the wicked". One would not say poors, or talenteds, or wickeds, and in the same way one would not say "latters". |
The point here is that you don't add an "s" to pluralize a adjective used as a noun, even if it is referring to a plural:
The poor on welfare are bankrupting the country. vs The poor on welfare is bankrupting the country.
Poor is plural by itself without needing an -s. Same with "the admiring" "the talented" "the wicked" --- we know intitively they are referring to more than 1 person - they are referring to all people who are talented and so on. So, we use the verb form that agrees with a plural noun.
With latter, we also intuitively know it is referring to the last noun of two mentioned in the previous sentence and that that noun dictates what form the verb should take to agree with it.
Last edited by iggyb on Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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With group in my first comment on it, I had in mind a sentence like:
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| Who stole the books - that group of boys or that group of girls? The groups are (both) juvenile delinquents. |
Here you use "groups" because it is referring to two seperate groups - not 1 collective. So using the plural of the verb would be obvious.
As opposed to "Each group is composed of deliquents." - in which we are referring to 1 group at a time and thus use the singular noun and verb.
I would imagine it would be in British English too.
What is common in British English when it comes to the two examples you gave?:
Samsung/Walmart is going to have a sale.
Samsung/Walmart are going to have a sale.
Samsung is going to have a sale -- looks right for American English.
The stores of Samsung/Walmart (group) are going to have a sale -- also looks right for American English.
I don't think we assume the (The stores of) Samsung - part. I think it has to be spelled out to get the "are"....in American English |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| iggyb wrote: |
With group in my first comment on it, I had in mind a sentence like:
| Quote: |
| Who stole the books - that group of boys or that group of girls? The groups are (both) juvenile delinquents. |
Here you use "groups" because it is referring to two seperate groups - not 1 collective. So using the plural of the verb would be obvious.
As opposed to "Each group is composed of deliquents." - in which we are referring to 1 group at a time and thus use the singular noun and verb.
I would imagine it would be in British English too.
What is common in British English when it comes to the two examples you gave?:
Samsung/Walmart is going to have a sale.
Samsung/Walmart are going to have a sale.
Samsung is going to have a sale -- looks right for American English.
The stores of Samsung/Walmart (group) are going to have a sale -- also looks right for American English.
I don't think we assume the (The stores of) Samsung - part. I think it has to be spelled out to get the "are"....in American English |
Again iggyb...you are correct in your analysis.
The groups are (both) juvenile delinquents.
And to rewrite that
Both groups are juvenile delinquents.
Both...as a determiner takes the plural.
As opposed to "Each group is composed of deliquents."
Each...as a determiner takes the singular.
There are many ways for native speakers to recognize when to use singular and plural...determiners, subjects..etc.
| Quote: |
What is common in British English when it comes to the two examples you gave?:
Samsung/Walmart is going to have a sale.
Samsung/Walmart are going to have a sale. |
As far as 'common'...not sure it is all that common, but it is certainly acceptable to use 'are' in British grammar in that example.
Perhaps Ed, or other British grammarians could let us know how commonly it is used. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| iggyb wrote: |
I think you'd use plural because "the latter" refers to a plural noun...
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actually, no, this explanation is what's confusing people.
latter refers to a position, that's all. therefore it's singular and the verb should be used appropriately, i.e., in the initial example "depends" would be correct.
that is:
| Quote: |
| Both age and experiences are important but the latter depends on acquired skills. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
latter refers to a position, that's all. therefore it's singular and the verb should be used appropriately, i.e., in the initial example "depends" would be correct.
that is:
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| Both age and experiences are important but the latter depends on acquired skills. |
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hmm...this is a tricky point in grammar.
However, first check this.
The boys and the girls were happy. The former were always happy; the latter were seldom happy.
Are you suggesting this?
The former was always happy; the latter was seldom happy.
If so...then we disagree on this point in grammar.
If you have any valid support for your statement...please post it.
Otherwise...the former/latter...are substitutes for previously mentioned nouns...with specific reference to position.
Much the same as pronouns relating to antecedents in anaphoric reference...only former/latter remain singular.
The former/latter are singular in and of themselves as words..but take either singular or plural verbs depending on what they are representing.
Therefore...if the original noun is singular...so is the former/latter...verb singular.
...if the noun is plural...the latter, while singular, represents a plural...therefore...verb plural.
Now...what you suggest about 'depends on'...may in fact have nothing to do with former/latter.
If that is your contention...I am inclined to agree.
Depends on...and Depend on...also depend on what they are referring to.
In the right context...either could be used.
Last edited by The Cosmic Hum on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Both age and experiences are important but the latter depends on acquired skills. |
I don't think so. I think it should be: Both age and experiences are important but the latter depend on acquired skills.
Latter doesn't just refer to position. It refers to the noun in that position. It is a substitute for that noun. So, just like with a pronoun, you should be able to substitute the original word for latter and have it agree with the verb.
Your sentence is awkward in part because it is a familiar but the famliar way is "Both age and experience" not "age and experiences".
Age and experiences is not wrong and makes sense. But the more usual construction is experience. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:33 am Post subject: |
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sorry it took a while to respond I've been busy
here this should help:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1307747
| Quote: |
| Latter and former are often used with the object omitted, but whether or not the object is singular or plural, latter and former do not change. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| sorry it took a while to respond I've been busy |
Yea, I am sorry for posting the Declaration Of Independence so late.
Why are you worried about tardiness when you aren't contributing anything original? |
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