Korean Job Discussion Forums

[etopkorea]

Unfortunately, the Urban Myth's reading comprehension sucks. Notice I said Apple has not raised the price of any of it's devices since at least 2006. An E-Book hardly qualifies at a "Device."

The fact remains that there have been no increases in the price of any Apple DEVICE since at least 2006.

Second, you are going to trust the opinion of some (notice, not all) industry analysts rather than trust history? You know what they say about those who don't learn from history, right? Are these the same analysts that said sub-prime mortgages were OK? Are these the same analysts that said the recession wouldn't last very long and that a double dip recession was extremely unlikely? Or are these the same analysts that are always so spot on with their earnings predictions?

You can throw around the expert word if you want, but few, if any of those guys are actually experts. In most cases, they are no better than the local fortune teller here in Korea.

Tell you what. You and Patrick stick with your "experts" and I'll stick with tried and true history. Let's revisit this thread a year from now and see what happened. If Apple raises the price of any of its DEVICES, I'll admit I was wrong. If, however, history keeps chugging away and the prices remain the same, you and your best bud Patrick can apologize to everyone here and admit once and for all that neither of you know as much as you think you do.

Deal?

[etopkorea]

By the way, UM, that Foxconn article is about an AUDIT of working conditions and not a LAWSUIT. Furthermore, Foxconn is not a factory exclusive to Apple. It is also used by the following companies:

Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Apple Inc. (United States)
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Samsung (South Korea)
Sharp (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002227098

Notice that Samsung is on the list as are most electronic manufacturers. If Apple is responsible for what goes on at Foxconn, then so is every other company on this list. I guess everyone is going to raise the price of products.

Again, this is NOT a lawsuit, so I really don't see the relevance of your bolded text. I guess reading comprehension is not really your thing.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[etopkorea]

An epic fail on so many levels, UM.

Look back at the quote of mine you chose. I said "product prices" and in the next sentence referred to those products as "devices." I was very clear about that because Apple has only two kinds of products (as was mentioned earlier in this thread).

First, Apple has hardware like Mac computers, iPads, iPhones, iPods, Displays, and a few accessories like keyboards, mice, WiFi base stations, etc.

Second, Apple has software like OSX, iWork, iLife, Final Cut Pro, Aperture, Logic Pro, iOS, Apple made iOS apps, etc.

Finally, Apple also offers "Services" (not products) like iCloud, AppleCare, Genius Bar, etc.

However, Ebooks, music, 3rd party iOS apps, movies, TV shows, 3rd party Mac apps, etc. are NOT Apple products! They never have been and they never will be. They are also NOT services.

Apple sells Microsoft Office on its website. Does that mean MS Office is an Apple product? See how this works? MS Office is a Microsoft product that Apple sells, just as Ebooks are publishing companies' products that Apple sells.

The 3rd party developers set the prices for their apps, be they Mac OS or iOS apps. Music, Ebooks, movies, TV shows, etc are not made by Apple and do not belong to Apple. Apple does not set the prices for these products. Apple negotiates with the publisher, recording company, network, etc. when setting the prices and these prices are often changed at the request of those publishers, recording companies, networks, etc.

Apple is an online vendor that sells Ebooks, music, movies, etc (No different than Amazon). Apple DOES NOT produce (notice the similarity to the word "product") Ebooks, music, movies, etc (No different than Amazon).

So, my point remains the same. Apple HAS NOT increased the price of any of its DEVICEs or PRODUCTS since at least 2006 (This includes software and services). Show me any historical evidence to support the idea that Apple is likely to increase its product prices in the next several years.

And, any money spent on improving the conditions at Foxconn will be paid by every company that utilizes that factory, which is basically every electronics company in the world. No one will have to increase prices because of the Foxconn situation. You divide $1 billion by 25 companies, and no one is hurting from that.

Besides, Apple will soon have an extra billion dollars to use toward any Foxconn fund. Perhaps you should worry about Samsung having to increase its prices. After all, it will have to pay to fix the Foxconn problem AND will have to pay $1 billion to Apple.

Patrick said iPhone prices would probably increase as a result of this lawsuit. I showed there was no historical evidence to support this and asked him to provide evidence to support his claim. He chose to put his head in the sand and ignore my request. When I asked again, he tried using smoke and mirrors to push the questioning off topic in a desperate attempt to get people to forget what he said.

If you want to pick up the torch and fight Patrick's fight, good on you. But, keep it on topic. I said there is no evidence to suggest the price of the iPhone (an Apple product and device) will not go up because of this or any other lawsuit.

You have apparently taken up Patrick's strategy of smoke and mirrors by using Foxconn (not an Apple company, product, or device) and Ebooks (not an Apple product or device) as a way to prove Apple will probably increase the price of the iPhone. Really?

The iPhone is an Apple device. Show me another Apple device that has had a price increase in the last 6 years (or 10 years, or whatever you want). Do the same for software or services if you want. I don't care because I already know the answer. The fact is that Apple tends to leave product prices alone. If Apple needs to trim costs, it does so by removing features or not adding new features as quickly. It, however, does not increase prices.

Let's keep this on topic, and the topic is Patrick's statement regarding the future price of iPhones. If you can defend that statement using related evidence, please do so. If not, well....

[Steelrails]

The important issue is not whether Apple will raise its prices. The issue is whether there will be cheap, touch-screen, icon based, rectangular shaped smart phones available at cheap prices.

[etopkorea]

There will always be cheap smartphones that are icon based, rectangular, etc.

The issue with Samsung was the conspicuousness of its copying. Do an internet search and look back at Samsung's packaging, cables, adapters, phones, icons, stores, etc. before the iPhone was introduced.

Then, look at the current packaging, cables, adapters, phones, icons, stores, etc at the link below. Enough said.


http://www.reddit.com/tb/kr14a

[Steelrails]

[TheUrbanMyth]

[etopkorea]

Great. You showed that things are bad at the Foxconn factories Apple uses. Guess what? Things are bad at all Foxconn factories, including the ones used by Dell, Microsoft, Samsung, Intel, Sony, and so on. Do you honestly think Apple is going to pay to improve conditions at every Foxconn factory? Do you think the Chinese government will allow improvements in only the factories Apple uses? Get real. Every company that uses Foxconn will pay to improve working conditions.

The articles you link to are smoke and mirrors. They lead the reader to believe that there are only problems at the Foxconn factories utilized by Apple, and that thing are just peachy at the other sites. How about a more unbiased article:

http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/26/dirty-money/

By the way, why are you calling Ebooks an Apple product? You still haven't explained that.

[TheUrbanMyth]

[etopkorea]

Unlike you, I provided an unbiased article rather than an article that does nothing but bash Apple. That's why some of the information in that article is critical of Apple.

I never said Apple did or does no wrong. I said there is no historical evidence to support the claim that Apple will likely raise the price of the iPhone because of this or any other lawsuit.

Guess what? Every electronics company is, at some point, going to have to help pay for the Foxconn debacle. Read the unbiased article (including the original NYT's article) once more. Each points out that Apple IS NOT the only company using Foxconn's service. In the end, they're all going to pay for it.

But, here's the kicker. It's estimated that Samsung has just under $12 billion in cash reserves while Apple has almost $120 billion in cash reserves.

Do you honestly think Apple is going to increase product prices because of any lawsuit or factory issue. The money spent on these things is a drop in the bucket. Apple has been sued for years and spends hundreds of million dollars each year in legal fees. This is part of the game and it's already factored into product prices. Look back and see how many times Apple gets sued each year. It's no big deal.

By the way, how is it that Ebooks are Apple products?

[TheUrbanMyth]

[etopkorea]

Read back and see what I said. Never once did I say "products offered by Apple." That phrase is part of your smoke and mirrors campaign.

I very clearly said "Apple's product prices" or a variant of that ("Its product prices", etc.).

Here's a quote by UM:

"And not only that...but Patrick is likely correct about prices being raised for Apple products although not for the reasons he stated."

Notice that even you said "Apple Products" rather than "products offered by Apple."

There's a huge difference, dude. Apple products are those designed, made, and branded by Apple. Products offered by Apple are something else altogether.

You're as bad as Patrick. You, too, have been caught saying something that just isn't true and you've been called out on it. Rather than admit you said the wrong thing, you're going to go down denying it to the end.

Dude, all you had to say was something like, "Yeah, using Ebooks as an example of an Apple product was a bad choice. My bad," and everyone here would probably respect you a little more.


Finally, I showed that from 2006 to today, Apple has not increased the price of any of its devices, iPhone included (Which is what this thread was all about.... Ebooks! Really?!) I have given evidence that has 100% accuracy. Look back and see. 100% of those products have not seen an increase in price.

You have provided us with opinions from analysts (your "experts" as you referred to them). I'm sure if we look at the track records of these "experts" we will find that their predictions are far from 100% accurate. I'm even willing to bet the number is far closer to 50%.

Simple math wins. I've given evidence that has so far proven to be 100% accurate. You have provided evidence that has so far proven to be less than 100%, and more likely closer to 50% accurate.

Anyway, I'm tired of both of you so here's what I'm going to do. Next September, I'm going to resurrect this thread and we'll see if any of Apple's product prices have increased, especially the iPhone.

That's the fairest way to put an end to this and to find out who was right who was wrong (history vs. analysts). Deal?

[TheUrbanMyth]

[etopkorea]

Well guess what. Just a few days have passed and what do we have?

Apple is actually starting to REDUCE the price of some of "the products it offers" rather than increasing them.

http://paidcontent.org/2012/09/11/apple-is-already-fighting-amazon-in-the-ebook-price-wars/

And, a new iPhone was released and guess what.... wait for it.... the price remains unchanged at $199. Wow! Apple didn't raise the price of the new iPhone! Who'd of thunk?

It's just too easy!