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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Is there any scientific evidence that corporal punishment is more effective and leads to a "better society" like some of you claim? All I've ever heard from advocates of coporal punishment are anecdotal. "Well when I was a kid, I got my ass kicked and I turned out fine!" isn't good enough evidence for me.
I know plenty of people who got their ass kicked and grew up to be human garbage while some of the most repsectable people I know never had a finger laid on them. Of course I've seen the opposite as well. It seems to be discipline has a lot more to do with than whether kids gets hit or not.
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| Teachers should be allowed to hit kids on the hand with a ruler or love=stick. Beyond that, miscreants should be sent to the head master and his deputy to recieve either the paddle or the cane. This is not physically harmful or dangerous btw. |
You're drawing this line based on? |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Is there any scientific evidence that corporal punishment is more effective and leads to a "better society" like some of you claim? |
As it was decided to replace corporal punishment with patience, understanding, knowledge etc..., surely the onus is on the people who decided to replace it to show that its abolition has led to more effective discipline in schools and a 'better society'. I think they'd be hard pressed to be honest. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| Is there any scientific evidence that corporal punishment is more effective and leads to a "better society" like some of you claim? |
As it was decided to replace corporal punishment with patience, understanding, knowledge etc..., surely the onus is on the people who decided to replace it to show that its abolition has led to more effective discipline in schools and a 'better society'. I think they'd be hard pressed to be honest. |
Actually, this is a bit of a red herring.
Whether or not CP is effective is not the case for its abolution.
CP is physical abuse. Period.
Most right minded people have known this for a long time.
Most education systems banned its use long ago.
Where in free society do we condone physical abuse?
We don't.
Then why would we condone its use in schools?
(CP in the home is a topic on its own...yes?)
I get what you are coming at though.
The powers that be have removed what some think was a useful tool for classroom management...where disruptive students were concerned.
And they keep removing tools, which further undermines the 'authority' of the teacher.
And, as of yet, they have not given teachers effective ways to manage disruptive students.
In my opinion, this is where the focus should be.
How to manage the classroom?
CP is no longer part of that equation...if it ever was.
I don't think they ever did studies before they first started using it.
Primitive minds using primitive methods.
If someone would like to add CP to the equation, then certainly the onus is on those who wish to use it to prove that it is an effective tool based on evidence of its use in free society.
Does that seem reasonable? |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| As it was decided to replace corporal punishment with patience, understanding, knowledge |
This is a great quote as it clearly shows what is wrong with CP. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
CP is physical abuse. Period. |
You clearly do not even know what the word "abuse" means.
In your emotional mind, you have conflated discipline and punishment with "abuse". They are not the same.
It does not surprise me that you have no clue as to what discipline is. You appear to have never recieved any. I pity you: you were neglected. Discipline is from the effort and love of a caring parent.
A parent who allows their child to do whatever they please at any time is the very definition of an abusive and uncaring parent. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in Incheon wrote: |
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| As it was decided to replace corporal punishment with patience, understanding, knowledge |
This is a great quote as it clearly shows what is wrong with CP. |
No, CP was replaced with the faith-based belief that all human beings are inherently good and that non-CP will ALWAYS work and CP will NEVER work. That is not patience, understanding, and knowledge. That is squeamishness, fable, and dogma.
What was needed was proper reform to consider that OFTEN CP is ineffective, but ON OCCASION it is necessary.
I believe that there is zero evidence to indicate that allhuman beings respond to the same motivations in the same manner. I believe there is zero evidence to indicate that all people are inherently good. Because education is compulsory, you will get all types of people.
Can you name me any other situations where human beings are forced into a single confined area en masse? I can think of two- prison and mass-conscript militaries. Needless to say, both feature increased violence and both often rely on force and threat of force to maintain order and discipline.
Believing that unconnected human beings in such an environment will not behave in a territorial and a predatory fashion is contrary to everything we know about their biology and behavior.
The plain and simple in truth is that some human beings are motivated more by "strength" and force than other factors. Some don't care about their financial futures or the feelings of others or even in being part of a social group. For some, the strongest motivation comes from that instinct that is responsible for physical safety and avoidance of pain.
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| CP is physical abuse. Period. |
Incorrect. Failing to use the proper corrective measure for the individual based on your squeamishness and unfounded beliefs regarding human nature is abuse. It is abusive to allow someone to persist in disrupting the classroom and wasting the other students' time and inhibiting their education. If non-CP measures are ineffective, it is abuse to allow classroom disruptions to continue because you don't have it in you to use CP. That doesn't mean the CP will necessarily be effective, but it has the possibility of working, particularly in the more disruptive. Most of all it is cruel to the student because they fail to develop academically because you wouldn't take steps to control their juvenile impulses.
Is it more cruel to have 3 minutes of classroom disruption and having it cease because the student was administered CP or 300 minutes of classroom disruptions and non-learning because of your failure to administer CP?
The greatest cruelty in a classroom is failing to learn and denying others the chance to learn, not 10 strokes with the switch.
Last edited by Steelrails on Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| It's easy to tell which posters have never had children. Discipline is a parent's responsibility and it does the child a world of good. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
| It's easy to tell which posters have never had children. Discipline is a parent's responsibility and it does the child a world of good. |
And hitting a child is the only form of discipline available? Quick, someone tell the military they're doing it wrong. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
| It's easy to tell which posters have never had children. Discipline is a parent's responsibility and it does the child a world of good. |
And hitting a child is the only form of discipline available? Quick, someone tell the military they're doing it wrong. |
So you're implying the military is doing it right then?
Striking children isn't necessary, but forcing them to run laps, do pushups, hold stress positions, etc. is extremely effective. Pain is a powerful motivator in the military and for all living creatures. |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| It's easy to tell which posters have never had children. Discipline is a parent's responsibility and it does the child a world of good. |
I am a parent. My kids are disciplined. They just aren't hit.
At home, I was disciplined. I was never hit.
I was disciplined at school. I was never hit.
Discipline does not equal hitting. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
And hitting a child is the only form of discipline available? . |
No, but it is often the quickest and most effective, particularly in a school setting.
If I'm trying to educate a class of 40 kids then...
a) I'm not willing to have their time wasted at the hands of one misbehaving student.
b) I'm not willing to forfeit hours of my time in punishments when I could be using it more productively.
c) I'm not willing to employ all kinds of emotionally harmful mind games to manipulate a student into compliance when a harmless smack across the hand would do the same trick in a millisecond.
I admit that CP was formerly misused on occasion by some in authority. But the same goes for everything. A few people drink and drive, that is no reason to ban cars. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in Incheon wrote: |
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| It's easy to tell which posters have never had children. Discipline is a parent's responsibility and it does the child a world of good. |
I am a parent. My kids are disciplined. They just aren't hit.
At home, I was disciplined. I was never hit.
I was disciplined at school. I was never hit.
Discipline does not equal hitting. |
You eventually did what you were told. If you didn't after these other disciplines then you would have needed a smack.
Most people take an all or nothing arguement with CP, instead of an inbetween approach. CP can be effective as a last resort and not as a first one. |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| then you would have needed a smack. |
So as I last resort I should get hit. And if the first smack didn't work...would I have deserved two. Then three. And if that didn't work, maybe a belt. And if that didn't work, maybe a nice caning.
CP is not the cure all you think it is. There is no reason to believe that the student who refused to behave under all other discipline systems would suddenly fall in line because they might get hit.
People seem to have some dream that there used to be some ideal schools where the paddle was hung on the wall and everybody behaved.
Then when the paddle was removed from the school, anarchy ensued.
I went through school in the 70's and 80's. Not one school I attended used CP. There was no anarchy.
CP is not needed to keep discipline. You don't have to use it. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Failing to use the proper corrective measure for the individual based on your squeamishness and unfounded beliefs regarding human nature is abuse. It is abusive to allow someone to persist in disrupting the classroom and wasting the other students' time and inhibiting their education. If non-CP measures are ineffective, it is abuse to allow classroom disruptions to continue because you don't have it in you to use CP. That doesn't mean the CP will necessarily be effective, but it has the possibility of working, particularly in the more disruptive. Most of all it is cruel to the student because they fail to develop academically because you wouldn't take steps to control their juvenile impulses.
Is it more cruel to have 3 minutes of classroom disruption and having it cease because the student was administered CP or 300 minutes of classroom disruptions and non-learning because of your failure to administer CP?
The greatest cruelty in a classroom is failing to learn and denying others the chance to learn, not 10 strokes with the switch. |
FFS...
SR...I'll reply to this...only to point out the disregard you have for other posters' posts.
I realize you like to argue merely for the sake of argument, but really, this is getting old.
| Julius wrote: |
A parent who allows their child to do whatever they please at any time is the very definition of an abusive and uncaring parent.
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...allowing children to do whatever they please at any time?
Julius...this is just pathetic.
Not one poster in this thread has mentioned anything similar to your comment.
Feel free not to respond to my posts on this subject...as I will not be responding to yours. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in Incheon wrote: |
| You don't have to use it. |
You don't have to use it...once you've used it once.
Its a bit like a nuclear bomb. Once you've been seen to use it once...then the threat of it is all that is needed to keep order for months afterward.
That is what teachers need to keep order. A potent threat, a deterrent.
| Weigukin74 wrote: |
| If you didn't after these other disciplines then you would have needed a smack. |
Right.
A caning is a last resort for students that ignore all other warnings or punishments.
If you tell a student to stand with their hands up and they refuse, and so on again and again, then you rapidly approach the point where physical force becomes necessary.
This is why countries employ police forces and armies. Because not everyone responds to verbal warnings. As it is, physical force, or the genuine threat thereof is the foundation of all authority on this planet. This is the reality that you need to prepare students for. |
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