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Should I learn Korean?
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byrddogs

Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

While I suspect Nautilus has some inflammatory accusation against Korean culture in mind, the real cause is probably that Korean is one of the hardest -- if not the single hardest -- major modern languages for a native English speaker to learn. Near zero transparency (even loan words from English are often completely distorted), completely alien grammatical structure, subtle and complex verbal morphology, many homophones and a huge number of near-homophones, and so forth.

Korean is one of the hardest, but certainly not the single hardest. To say that Korean is a major language is a bit of a stretch.

I'm where schwa and nautilus are, and could really care less that I didn't learn more in my time there. I was functional. I am making more of an effort to learn Chinese these days, however.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:58 am Post subject:

Privateer wrote:

Fox wrote:

Westerners who genuinely master Korean have achieved a quite solid lingustic feat. As languages go, it is hard mode for us.

Has anyone on this forum actually mastered Korean to the point where they can sit down and watch a film or the news on TV and understand it without any problems? If so, I'd like to hear about their experience.

There used to be this guy Mithridates. And I know there are some guys who progress through the levels at Sogang pretty fast...

I have.

What would you like to hear about my experience?

cheolsu

Joined: 16 Jan 2009

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:02 am Post subject:

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Having studied Mandarin a bit, I find Korean was easier to learn early on.

Thanks for the most informative reply anyway.

Really? I speak basic Chinese, a bit below the level of those who describe themselves as "basically functional", or maybe at the same level. I got there from a month of traveling in China. Equivalent proficiency in Korean took me about 3-4 months.

I've always felt that Chinese is easier to speak, though overall the ease of reading in Korean and the near-impossibility of writing in Chinese (I once had to write down an address to show to a taxi driver since I couldn't say it) probably give the edge to Korean. My reasons for why Chinese is easier to speak:

- no formal and familiar registers to learn
- words and sentences are shorter, meaning that 谢谢 is more likely to stick in your head as a beginner than 고맘습니다
- the grammar is more similar to that of English
- the grammar is stripped down, without articles and few participles

To answer privateer's question, I'm sure there are many Westerners or non-native speakers who have learned to speak Korean at that level. I can read books or watch a movie and understand what I read, but I'd be lying if I said that there weren't some parts I didn't understand. If I can do it in 3.5 years without any formal study, I'm sure others would blow me out of the water.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:22 am Post subject:

It took me 2-3 years to become conversationally fluent and to be able to read simple novels. A couple of years later I would say I had reached what I consider to be full fluency, meaning reading various books, watching television and movies with no effort to understand. I can write reports or analysis in Korean. Correspond with Korean friends in Korean by email or chat and I can have a full conversation with any Korean. Does the odd word I do not know pop up sometimes? Sure and that typically happened with older Koreans (60+) or with certain regional dialects. I have to say that I was in a very favorable learning environment and that I had a very high level of motivation. I was in what I can call a practice rich environment with my in-laws and with some of my Korean friends. I also made efforts to practice everyday early on by reading basic things like newspaper headlines and short articles and using Korean as much as possible when out and about. It was damn hard work mind you but for me it was worth it.

PRagic

Joined: 24 Feb 2006

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:30 am Post subject:

Yes, you should.

Zackback

Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject:

With a few exceptions it is not worth learning another language. Just use English. This is THE global language. By conversing in any other language with the locals or anyone else for that matter prevents them from being more globalized.

nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Should I learn korean

cheezsteakwit wrote:

nautilus wrote:

schwa wrote:

a bit embarrassing that I'm not relatively fluent after all my time in Korea, more like basic functional.

Me too. Yeah its bad.. but its a distinct phenomenon in Korea that you don't really find in other countries...and there are strong reasons for it.

^^^ such as ???

I'm not trolling, I'm just really, honestly, curious what are some of the strong reasons for it , in your opinion.

So to summarise, the reasons are:

1) Korean culture is often unwelcoming to foreigners, and this does not motivate outsiders to learn.
2) Linguistically it is totally unrelated to european languages
3) (At least it used to be) way too hard to find quality KSL teachers
4) Too complex. It takes three times as long to say something in Korean as it does in english.
5) It sounds awful. The intonation mimics a strangled cat, the vocab is like a crow on its deathbead.
6) It lacks depth. It has little sophistication, poetic or romantic appeal.
7) Its too hard to anchor. For some reason, the words just do not stick.
(eight) Too hard. In fact it is rated as the hardest language for westerners to learn.
9) Its useless. Unless you plan to live the rest of your life in Korea, then its simply not worth the effort.
10) Sheer difficulty of pronunciation. Koreans are not accustomed to hearing foreigners trying to speak their language. So unless you pronounce the words 100% identical to the way their mom does, they don't recognize them.
11) Repetition. For some reason Koreans like making you repeat yourself two or three times everytime you open your mouth.
12) Ridicule. Some Koreans tend to laugh at foreigners who speak their language.
13) Zenephobia. Its hard to learn a language if you do not feel engaged or accepted into the culture.
14) Lack of cultural appeal. Korea is not like Italy or France, it has little glamour or cachet on the international scene. Cuisine? fashion?
15) Lack of a permanent expat community. Most foreigners are temporary migrants, and there are few real prospects for anyone who stays.
16) No need. It is entirely possible to be comfortable in Korea without having to learn more than the basics. Most waegs work in english schools, so they are surrounded by people who speak english anyway.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject:

Quote:

1) Korean culture is often unwelcoming to foreigners, and this does not motivate outsiders to learn.
2) Linguistically it is totally unrelated to european languages
3) (At least it used to be) way too hard to find quality KSL teachers
4) Too complex. It takes three times as long to say something in Korean as it does in english.
5) It sounds awful. The intonation mimics a strangled cat, the vocab is like a crow on its deathbead.
6) It lacks depth. It has little sophistication, poetic or romantic appeal.
7) Its too hard to anchor. For some reason, the words just do not stick.
(eight) Too hard. In fact it is rated as the hardest language for westerners to learn.
9) Its useless. Unless you plan to live the rest of your life in Korea, then its simply not worth the effort.
10) Sheer difficulty of pronunciation. Koreans are not accustomed to hearing foreigners trying to speak their language. So unless you pronounce the words 100% identical to the way their mom does, they don't recognize them.
11) Repetition. For some reason Koreans like making you repeat yourself two or three times everytime you open your mouth.
12) Ridicule. Some Koreans tend to laugh at foreigners who speak their language.
13) Zenephobia. Its hard to learn a language if you do not feel engaged or accepted into the culture.
14) Lack of cultural appeal. Korea is not like Italy or France, it has little glamour or cachet on the international scene. Cuisine? fashion?
15) Lack of a permanent expat community. Most foreigners are temporary migrants, and there are few real prospects for anyone who stays.
16) No need. It is entirely possible to be comfortable in Korea without having to learn more than the basics. Most waegs work in english schools, so they are surrounded by people who speak english anyway.

I'd contest a few of these.

3) I think, as you say it used to be but nowadays if people don't have a decent Korean teacher it's probably because they're trying to do it on the cheap. As TEFLers are known for.
4) I don't get 4 at all. Korean often seems a lot more economical than English. No articles, auxiliary verbs, subject pronouns etc...
5 and 6 are very subjective. A foreign language spoken at normal speed at a loud pitch tends to annoy non speakers of that language in general because to them it is just a noise. I agree, however, that a lot of the sounds Korean males make can often sound like grunts or caveman-type utterances of incomprehension and the females can sound like cartoon characters but again that's probably because I'm not in on the context. Koreans would definitely disagree with 6 and claim their language is every bit as rich as English, if not richer in idioms, metaphors etc...
15) Your PatrickGHBusan brigade will contest this one strongly and claim the reason why there are few prospects for most foreigners in Korea is that they can't speak the language. They may well be right. They will also calim 13 is a chicken and egg problem and you can't expect to be accepted into the culture until you learn the language.

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:01 am Post subject:

Quote:

I don't get 4 at all. Korean often seems a lot more economical than English. No articles, auxiliary verbs, subject pronouns etc...

Here are some sentences (with the syllable count in parentheses):
______________

He lost the game. (4)
그는 경기에서 졌습니다. (10)

Blueberries are round. (5)
블루베리는 동그랗습니다. (10)

She is wearing a pink skirt. (7)
그녀는 분홍색 치마를 입고 있습니다. (15)

The young girl is scratching an itch. (8 )
어린 여자 아이는 가려운 데를 긁고 있습니다. (18 )

Her husband eats everything she cooks for him. (11)
그녀의 남편은 그녀가 요리해 주는 것은 모두 먹습니다. (22)

Our favorite restaurant is full tonight. (11)
우리가 제일 좋아하는 식당이 오늘 밤에는 꽉 찼습니다. (22)

Sleet, freezing rain drops, stings when it hits bare skin. (11)
진눈깨비 또는 우박이 내릴 때 그것이 맨살에 떨어지면 따끔거립니다. (28 )

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:24 am Post subject:

Quote:

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:01 am�� Post subject:
Quote:
I don't get 4 at all. Korean often seems a lot more economical than English. No articles, auxiliary verbs, subject pronouns etc...

Here are some sentences (with the syllable count in parentheses):
______________

He lost the game. (4)
그는 경기에서 졌습니다. (10)

Blueberries are round. (5)
블루베리는 동그랗습니다. (10)

She is wearing a pink skirt. (7)
그녀는 분홍색 치마를 입고 있습니다. (15)

The young girl is scratching an itch. (8 )
어린 여자 아이는 가려운 데를 긁고 있습니다. (18 )

Her husband eats everything she cooks for him. (11)
그녀의 남편은 그녀가 요리해 주는 것은 모두 먹습니다. (22)

Our favorite restaurant is full tonight. (11)
우리가 제일 좋아하는 식당이 오늘 밤에는 꽉 찼습니다. (22)

Sleet, freezing rain drops, stings when it hits bare skin. (11)
진눈깨비 또는 우박이 내릴 때 그것이 맨살에 떨어지면 따끔거립니다. (28 )

Well I suppose it depends whther you think 'economical' is about the number of words or the number of syllables. She's wearing a pink skirt is fewer words to sort out in your head before you speak in Korean but more syllables because you pronounce skirt as three syllables instead of one and so on.

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:52 am Post subject:

Quote:

그녀는 she
분홍색 pink
치마를 skirt
입고 wearing
있습니다 is

The English sentence has "a", but the Korean sentence has "는" and "를" (조사). So, the Korean sentence has more words, and more syllables. Korean is a hard language to learn, and the lengthy amount of syllables makes listening and pronunciation all the more difficult.

postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:04 am Post subject:

Quote:

13) Zenephobia. Its hard to learn a language if you do not feel engaged or accepted into the culture.
14) Lack of cultural appeal. Korea is not like Italy or France, it has little glamour or cachet on the international scene. fashion?

These two are the biggest, especially the Zenephobia. I can't stand hearing "우리나라" and I call people out on it. I also can't stand that 'you are here to earn money' BS. There needs to be more foreigners fluent in Korean to go on Korean TV and explain this, not sychophants who just nurse people's insecurities. Actually this is the biggest motivation for me, to be able to speak one's mind.

sethzor

Joined: 03 Feb 2012

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:41 am Post subject:

World Traveler wrote:

Quote:

Ugh, do you actually speak Korean at a reasonably fluent level? It's a very awkward and wordy language if you speak it like a foreigner (ie, by taking English sentences and trying to directly translate them into Korean), but it's an extremely efficient and I would dare say elegant language when spoken by natives. Your attempt on comparing sentence lengths is really irrelevant because no Korean would ever say something like '그녀는 분홍색 치마를 입고 있습니다. ' Also the whole thing about Korean having 'no depth'... again, are you proficient enough in the language to judge that?

It's definitely a difficult language to learn because of how different it is from any European languages, but I'm pretty sure it's easier for a Western person to learn Korean than it is for a Korean to learn English.

Anyway, I can see plenty of reasons why someone wouldn't want to learn it (biggest of them being the difficulty of learning a language that has nothing in common with English), but there's no need to try to justify your unwillingness to learn it by writing rants about how awful and useless it is. Personally I can't even imagine how can anyone spend more than 2-3 years in a country without speaking its language at least on a conversational fluency level, and even if you are leaving after 1 or 2 years picking up at least some common expressions is absolutely worth it, in my opinion. It's not that difficult of a language to learn, given the right approach - especially when you're continually immersed into it.

jammo

Joined: 12 Dec 2008

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:51 am Post subject:

postfundie wrote:

Quote:

I can empathise with your feeling but '우리 나라' just means 'Korea'

It is often said out of earshot to non-Koreans.

Dont misunderstand it.

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:11 am Post subject:

Quote:

I'm pretty sure it's easier for a Western person to learn Korean than it is for a Korean to learn English.

What a foolish thing to say. All Koreans get 10 years of mandatory English lessons, 12 if they go to college. (In America, I did not get 12 years of Korean lessons.)

Quote:

Personally I can't even imagine how can anyone spend more than 2-3 years in a country without speaking its language at least on a conversational fluency level

Well, hardly any expats ever reach that level, including lifers with Korean wives and Korean kids.

Quote:

It's not that difficult of a language to learn, given the right approach - especially when you're continually immersed into it.

Oh really? Then why are the lifers in Korea so much worse at the language than lifers in Japan or China? Korean has an objectively large number of sounds, and as an adult, they are difficult, if not impossible, to accurately pronounce and perceive. Children learn languages better than adults (with RARE exception), which is why you as a gyopo were able to learn it so easily. My pronunciation will NEVER be as good as someone who grew up listening to and speaking it.

I never said Korean was not a deep language; that was someone else. But I'm not going to blindly agree everytime a Korean insists that English is a stupid, inefficient language while telling me Korean is the world's most logical and scientific language. Since you are Korean, and thus well versed in the language, tell me, is this a natural sounding sentence?:

버스 정류장에 가는 가장 좋은 방법은 무엇인가요? (20)
What's the best way to get to the bus stop? (10)

I'm pretty sure the Korean language requires at least as many words and syllables as English does in order to convey the same message.

(PS- I just realized that I don't know for certain if you are 교포. If not, how did you learn Korean to a high level before preparing to come here? Maybe you have talent...and you worked hard on it. Anyways, I'm done arguing. Anything you want to say to get off your chest, feel free.)

Last edited by World Traveler on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total

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