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cj1976

Joined: 26 Oct 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject:

Korea. Where the men are men. In a way.

The Cosmic Hum

Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject:

cj1976 wrote:

Korea. Where the men are men. In a fashion.

Perhaps a bit more accurate? Wink

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject:

alongway wrote:

Quote:

Where is your evidence that the article is "trying to mislead" people? It doesn't say what you want it to say, so it's "misleading"? BS.

Wow..
They cite a study on skincare and spend the entire article talking about make-up which isn't covered by that study.

you don't think that's misleading? There really isn't much hope for you at all.

Quote:

The claim is not weak. The sales figures show that, no matter what petty pedanticsim you want to throw at them.

What supports it? the fact that they saw someone with lipstick at a cafe? That's it?
What sales figures? The sales figures they gave had nothing to do with make-up..
nothing to do with eye-liner, nothing to do with lipstick, etc.

It's almost as if you're being wilfully ignorant.

The article is 99% about make-up, as in the lipstick and eye-liner variety, and the only evidence they give in regards to that is a couple stories about guys at a cafe and one at work. If you consider that a strong claim or evidence.. there is nothing else to say, I've got a tree stump out back I can have a much more intelligent conversation with.

I'd put my money on the tree stump in a conversation with you.

"99%"--sheer hyperbole. "The only evidence"--not true. How about two stores in Seoul dedicated to selling men cosmetics?

The willful ignorance is on your part. For some reason you didn't like the article, pure and simple, and so began whining that it's not a footnoted, heavily researched business presentation. I'm surprised you're not asking for pie charts.

It's about a trend, pure and simple. Trends come and go. Maybe this one takes off, maybe it doesn't. Amorepacific thinks it will, you don't. Who knows more about it?

cj1976

Joined: 26 Oct 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject:

The Cosmic Hum wrote:

cj1976 wrote:

Korea. Where the men are men. In a fashion.

Perhaps a bit more accurate? Wink

That is better, actually. I wanted to say "in a gay way" but thought that might upset people here.

JeffersonDarcy2010

Joined: 05 Aug 2010

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject:

It was interesting to hear stories of Koreans who actually acknowledged that Korean men often wear eyeliner. In my experience, I never met a Korean who would admit something like this to a foreigner, even if it's clearly common knowledge, and denying it would make someone appear ridiculous.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Sometimes you don't need statistics to form an opinion.

Since this wasn't presented as an editorial and contains text like "Korea is the male make-up capital of the world" yes you do need something to back that up to be taken seriously.

radcon wrote:

How would you even be able to measure how much Korean men spend on lipstick and mascara since there is no such thing as mens lipstick and mens eyeliner... yet. Or is there?

The same way you study anything, through a consumer study. They've been doing them for a long long time, they know how to do them properly, even if reporters don't know how to use them properly.
You'd study to find out how many men are using actual make-up and then what the average one spends on make-up.

Quote:

"99%"--sheer hyperbole. "The only evidence"--not true. How about two stores in Seoul dedicated to selling men cosmetics?

There are at least 2 sex shops in Seoul. That means Seoul is the sex toy capital of the world right?
.....Right?
isn't that how it works?

Another swing and a miss. One has to wonder at some point if you aren't James Turnball.

I just directly asked you to defend the claim you made and..nada.. no shock there. What sales figures were presented about men's makeup. When you can point to where that is in the article, feel free to let us know. We'll wait.

cj1976

Joined: 26 Oct 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:12 am Post subject:

Most Korean fellas are okay to hang out with and have a beer, but some of them get a bit moody when they are on their period. Best just to leave them be when that happens.

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:16 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

Quote:

Sometimes you don't need statistics to form an opinion.

Since this wasn't presented as an editorial and contains text like "Korea is the male make-up capital of the world" yes you do need something to back that up to be taken seriously.

radcon wrote:

How would you even be able to measure how much Korean men spend on lipstick and mascara since there is no such thing as mens lipstick and mens eyeliner... yet. Or is there?

Quote:

"99%"--sheer hyperbole. "The only evidence"--not true. How about two stores in Seoul dedicated to selling men cosmetics?

Nope, that's not how it works. How many men's make-up shops are there in other cities? And of course the idea behind those shops is that they are only the beginning. How long will it take for other companies to try and cash in on the trend by opening their own shops?

I haven't made any claims that aren't supported by the article.

You need to listen better to that tree stump you like talking to. It's telling you that the nit you keep picking just isn't there.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:47 am Post subject:

Quote:

I haven't made any claims that aren't supported by the article.

Except the article hasn't provided anything to support its claims. Incredible logic.

Let's look at the false study the article, and you by extension, hang your hat on. The same company in 2009 claimed the Men's grooming industry (whatever that is) was 4.8 billion in the US.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/fashion/02skin.html?pagewanted=all
Not only that, we have personal stories of tough guys wearing make-up to work.

Quote:

Among the fastest growing men�s segments is skin care, which refers to nonshaving products like facial cleansers, moisturizers and exfoliants. That category grew more than fivefold over the period, to $217 million from $40.9 million, Euromonitor said.

This was 2 years ago, and at the rate of growth indicated in the article, they should be well past Korea's levels.. I notice the figures for the US aren't included in that article. See.. this is how critical thinking works. I know it's apparently a foreign concept to you.

It seems much more common in the west for cosmetic and make-up areas to have "men's areas" rather than independent stores, but that is simply an image issue. Many "manly men" would have trouble walking into Little Jack's Lipstick shack to go shopping rather than going through the aisle at shoppers drugmart. That said, I think you'll find a lot more retail space dedicated to selling men's cosmetics in the west than you would in Korea. As several men's only lines are available in various retail outlets across north America while in Korea I've never seen a specific "mens" section of any size in any of the cosmetic shops i've been in (like innisfree or something like that) I may recall once seeing one tiny shelf that may have had something specifically targeted at men on it a year or two ago.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/23/business/la-fi-man-makeup-20120623

You see here is how you actually provide these kinds of statistics:

Quote:

According to research firm NPD Group, only 1 in 4 guys uses some kind of facial skin-care product,

Quote:

Cosmetics chain Ulta rolled out in-store boutiques called the Men's Shop. CVS Pharmacy has created Guy Aisles in its stores devoted to men's products. Macy's last week opened a Men's Grooming Zone in San Francisco with a barber, flat-screen TV, the sports pages and free Wi-Fi.

Yes..two stores in Korea really sounds like the male make-up capital of the world. Rolling Eyes

Heck the Grooming lounge itself has 2 stores in the US
http://www.groominglounge.com/about-us

In Quebec, it's not only a store, it's a men's spa
http://www.kenmen.net/en/skinColour/store/index.html
with their own full line.

Quote:

Men's grooming is one of the fastest growing segments in the beauty business. Chicago-based research firm Mintel forecasts that sales of men's toiletries will hit $3.2 billion by 2016, up from an estimated $2.6 billion this year and $2.2 billion in 2006.

Here is another interesting bit of info from the article. This company puts it at 2.6 billion while euromonitor had it at 4.8 billion years ago, that's quite a discrepancy. Makes you wonder how remotely reliable any of these numbers are.

The Cosmic Hum

Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:37 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

There are at least 2 sex shops in Seoul. That means Seoul is the sex toy capital of the world right?
.....Right?
isn't that how it works?

Korea is the sex capital of the world though...right?
Maybe even just Itaewon...given all the press about it.

Now, I know what some of you are going to say.
You looked it up, or have 'real world' experience, and believe that Thailand is the sex capital of the world.

But here is where you are going wrong.

I eat won...was the original spelling of Iteawon...but it got changed for obvious reason...as the hookers on the hill thought it was all but too obvious.
But... with the won you can buy land and a lot of tail.
And when you anagram all those carefully bolded letters...well let me tell you...Itaewon and Thailand are dyslexic heaven.
And Korea and Thailand are pretty close to each other in geographical terms.....SO...in the end....same same.

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:46 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

Quote:

I haven't made any claims that aren't supported by the article.

Quote:

According to research firm NPD Group, only 1 in 4 guys uses some kind of facial skin-care product,

Quote:

Yes..two stores in Korea really sounds like the male make-up capital of the world. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

There you go again--"I think" (something you should probably leave to others) instead of I know.

And you're back to relying on that anecdotal evidence which you earlier said proves nothing. You don't know if you're coming or going.

I say, I say, son, I believe your weekly Can't See the Forest for the Tress club meeting is about to start. Better get a move on.

alongway

Joined: 02 Jan 2012

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:15 am Post subject:

Quote:

There you go again--"I think" (something you should probably leave to others) instead of I know.

That's right, because I properly attribute personal opinion. The facts speak for themselves.
The anecdotal evidence in those articles was for your benefit, since you seem to put so much value in it. See those have relevant numbers in addition to anecdotal evidence. They don't have completely unrelated numbers and only anecdotal evidence and some tired blogger's opinion.

The numbers in those articles speak to those of us capable of higher level thinking. Like 4.8 billion in mens grooming. over 200 million in skincare 2 years ago during a time of rapid growth.

The I think was backed up with actual evidence though.

Quote:

I think you'll find a lot more retail space dedicated to selling men's cosmetics in the west than you would in Korea.

Quote:

Those are all facts, and actual evidence beyond I saw a guy in a cafe. These are real chains opening up mens sections on national level. What does your article have? 2 shops in Korea and a security guard wearing make-up. WOW. Definitely more likely to be thought of as the capital.

Yes, I spoke anecdotally about the lack of men's sections in korean stores, because I'd never seen them nor seen any evidence they exist. I was leaving that open for you to actually provide some evidence to the contrary, but you didn't. That's how grown-up discussion works. I know, all new territory for you. You see, i put that out there, and since you didn't bother to counter it with anything, I can only assume you accept that as something to actually be true. If you didn't, then I would have expected you to provide something like some websites from cosmetics companies showing off their in-store mens areas or something like that. Kind of like I just did for you.

The problem is you've got nothing to defend the article and just prefer to spin your wheels playing the wilful fool.

madoka

Joined: 27 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:32 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

The same company in 2009 claimed the Men's grooming industry (whatever that is) was 4.8 billion in the US.

. . .

Here is another interesting bit of info from the article. This company puts it at 2.6 billion while euromonitor had it at 4.8 billion years ago, that's quite a discrepancy. Makes you wonder how remotely reliable any of these numbers are.

Kudos for showing critical thinking skills rarely found on Daves. It's like finding a unicorn that poops rainbows.

Having worked for a company similar to Euromonitor in college, I can explain these discrepancies. Euromonitor is in the business of selling these "reports" to companies and investors. So they'll hire some peon like me and pay them a pittance to keep cranking out dozens of "studies/reports" on various fields. We received no special training or instruction and were thrown to the wolves like any random hagwon owner would.

Well, if the report said that nothing interesting was happening in the shoe market in Estonia, then no one would buy this $900 report. So the company uses hyperbole to generate interest in their reports. "Estonia's footwear market is booming! The market has increased 35% every year! Estonia is the biggest market for sandals in Europe!" Then maybe some company or investor would want to see what was going on in Estonia and pay for the report.

Even a brief glance at their reports shows that they use the terms cosmetics, grooming products and make-up interchangeably. You may also notice that their numbers contradict each other. This is probably due to the lack of training or expertise on the part of their writers.

So not only does companies such as Euromonitor have an agenda, the writer of the article has an agenda to come up with something interesting to entertain his readers. So he'll latch on to the wackiest sounding parts of the report, add some antidotal stories, and, voila, easy to write fluff piece for people to waste a few minutes on.

However, you'll never convince the Dave's peanut gallery otherwise, because they want to believe the story is true. Just look around Korea and you're way, way more likely to wonder if the men bath on a regular basis, let alone use make-up. But certain Dave's users don't like reality getting in the way of their biases.

Last edited by madoka on Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total

madoka

Joined: 27 Mar 2008

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:37 am Post subject:

alongway wrote:

There is a big difference between Skincare and make-up.. as usual the media has lumped them together with a couple anecdotal examples to create a "trend" in some far-off exotic country.

This is the same as all the articles declaring any bizarre weird crap that came out of japan as a "new trend" but when you actually asked anyone who lived there if they'd seen it they'd always answer "What? God no..that'd be weird"

What!?!? You mean Japanese men aren't all perverts who buy used girl's underwear from vending machines, hump anime body pillows, and try to legally marry video game characters?!?!?!

Netz

Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Location: a parallel universe where people and places seem to be the exact opposite of "normal"

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Appearance is power

atwood wrote:

Korean MEN spent almost $500 million on skincare last year, 21% of global sales. They are expected to spend more than $885 million this year.

http://news.yahoo.com/korean-men-makeup-foundation-success-051134289.html

Quote:

Evidence of this new direction in South Korean masculinity is easy to find. In a crowded Seoul cafe, a young woman takes some lipstick out of her purse and casually applies it to her male companion's lips as they talk. At an upscale apartment building, a male security guard watches the lobby from behind a layer of makeup. Korean Air holds once-a-year makeup classes for male flight attendants.

Man, you just can't make this stuff up.

What's good for the goose....

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