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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
| Uh, Japanese beer is WAY better than the crap called Korean beer. |
Certainly true that many people, including quite a few Koreans too, seem to prefer Japanese beer of the two.
Personally, having lived for long periods in both countries and being a keen beer drinker, I don't really rate either J beer or K beer very highly. When I lived in Japan, I got sick of the fact that all the beer tasted pretty much the same, in spite of the impression given by differing labels on the cans in the convenience store. In Korea, the same - I can drink it if I have to but it just tastes all the same to me.
In Korea, the one I do quite like is Stout and likewise in Japan, I quite like the Asahi & Kirin black beers for the same reasons.
So to someone thinking of moving from Japan to Korea who likes beer - well, if you're fond of Japanese beer then don't worry because it's widely available and quite popular in Korea; if you think Japanese beer is kinda boring, then don't worry either because Korean beer is too. And the one big advantage Korea does have in the beer stakes, is that there is a much wider range of imported beers here than in Japan and at much better prices.
More generally speaking to the OP re switching from Japan to Korea, as someone who's spent the mid 90s to the present day in one or the other, my 20 won would be that the advice from mnjetter above is closest to what I'd say. Especially this part ...
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| It sounds like you're ready for a change from Japan, so you might really enjoy yourself here. |
I'd echo that and say just go for it and give it a try. Japan is certainly the cooler one of the two to like and be seen liking and, to be fair, many people have very good reasons for preferring it. But in the last decade and a half, I've met plenty of people who've lived in both and found their time in Korea to be as good as or better than the one they had in Japan. Not everything, but a lot depends on the individual and their own willingness to make it work. |
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ippy
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
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These are my favorite discussions.
I did jet 2005-2009
Came to korea 2009-2011
Came back to japan 2011 - ongoing.
I taught JHS pretty much all of them (Epik, JET and dispatch).
So all ALT/NET experience and all of it at the same grade.
A few things (with the ESID proviso):
You are MUCH more responsible for your classes in korea. In japan youre more your classic team teaching role. In korea youre T1. If you want to teach, youll like teaching more in korea i think. It certauinly felta lot more fulfilling.
Speaking of...
(this might be tempered by the fact i taught at an all girls middle school in korea), but i got WAY more enjoyment teaching in korea. The only way to explain it is that korean middle school kids feel a lot like japanese elementary school kids in their POSITIVITY and outward going attitude to lessons (I donot mean in their emotional or intellectual development).
The level is sort of the same... but if i was a bit of a pedant id say that the bell curve is pretty similar but that korean students maybe are a few points higher on average. In addition you are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to find students in Korea with fluency (usually students that were sent to the philippines for a few months of summer schooling or the like).
For the most part though the middle students are pretty much the same level. Thes also the same general interest in English you might find in japan, but the kids in korea feel much more inclined to play up a bit if youre a soft touch (im a soft touch).
Truthfully i got a lot of job fulfillment teaching in korea and it was honestly a stack of fun.
I also get some fulfillment in japan, but it can be a little more... frustrating maybe. I wont go into it since im sure you know for yourself being a teacher in japan, but i can tell you that korean kids are a breath of fresh air in many ways and you might have to teach in a normal middle school in japan to understand just why that is.
The kids are lovely in both countries mind you and you can get job fulfillment anywhere youre teaching, but honestly i adored teaching in korea. My second graders (when i first arrived) are the best group of students ive ever taught. They werent the best students, but even the lowest students were really cheerful and friendly.
Which brings me to...
Celebrity.
You know what its like in japan. No one gives a crap if you exist or not. One of my mates actually complained about this the other day in fact. Truth is, i like it, you can just get on with things and pick up a pay cheque. In korea you are MUCH more public property. The kids treat you like a celebrity, mums will throw their kids at you when youre hungover out shopping at home plus, and ajjumas will prattle on at you not even caring if you patrtake in the conversation. Youre on display a lot more, and youre more special for it. Maybe this is an inverse rule the closer you get to a big city. But i live rural japan and people are far too polite to start whittering at me in the street just because im not korean.
Swings and roundabouts on this. Youll love just how genuinely youre treat with adoration. Youll also start moaning about the invasion of your private space.
Shops are worse in korea. You wont find creature comforts as easy, but on the flip side, no matter where you are, youre probably an hour or two away from a big city.
Hotels, transport and food will blow your head off at a) how awesome it is; and b) how cheap it is. Internet cafes are EVERYWHERE. Theres always a party somewhere. The music sucks for the most part (unless you love hip hop and rnb, but yeah... its alright for a night out. You can also pretty much blag your way into a lot of clubs by being a foreigner and cheerful. At least, i could 
Korean uni dudes are AWESOME fun.
The telly as great. Family outing and infinity challenge will give you a real idea of the honest un-threatened ajjoshi spirit. I think those two programes single handedly made me forgive any bullshit i came across in my time there. Yes, youll meet assholes, and theyll be WAY more in your face than in japan, but just count to ten and walk off.
Another negative is domestics.
Add to that the general mistreatment of animals.
It can stink something fierce. Think dotonburi. 
I dont think its as beautiful as japan in terms of nature either. But then again i live in nagano. I also lived in saitama and anything beats that hole.
Basically you should do it. It s a really fun place to live. You might end up loving it. But if you dont you can always check out china or thailand next.
Oh yeah, and you can save cash pretty easy. |
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mnjetter
Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Location: Seoul, S. Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Personally, having lived for long periods in both countries and being a keen beer drinker, I don't really rate either J beer or K beer very highly. When I lived in Japan, I got sick of the fact that all the beer tasted pretty much the same, in spite of the impression given by differing labels on the cans in the convenience store. In Korea, the same - I can drink it if I have to but it just tastes all the same to me. |
This.
Also, I am surprised by your view on celebrity, ippy! My experience in Japan was exactly the opposite. I literally taught every child from the age of 7 to 15 within a 15-minute driving radius in Japan. People I randomly ran into while shopping in the nearby city (a half-hour drive) would come up and tell me they saw me on the news, or heard of me from their sister-in-law whose child was in one of my schools, or some sort like that. I'd have small children walking past my house trying to get a glimpse in my living room window (to which I would hide next to the window and shout BOO! when they came up for a look, heheh). Here in Korea, I don't get a second glance from anybody. Especially now that I have a day job for which I have to wear office clothes like all the Korean working stiffs. But of course, in Japan, I was in a tiny village, and here, I'm in Seoul. Apples and oranges. Just interesting that we had such opposite experiences. |
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silence.kit
Joined: 14 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Japanese beer is a great deal better. They have a thriving microbrew scene whereas Korea has only two microbreweries and one of them is quite poor.
I drank loads of beer in Japan and never had a bad beer.
Swill is swill wherever you go (Asahi, Kirin, Hite, Cass), but Japan is far ahead of Korea when it comes to quality beer. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| silence.kit wrote: |
Japanese beer is a great deal better. They have a thriving microbrew scene whereas Korea has only two microbreweries and one of them is quite poor.
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Sorry, but I have to say that I wasn't ultimately any more impressed with the "microbrew scene" in Japan than I was with the number of differently labelled beer cans in the convenience store fridge.
I first lived in Japan long before the "microbrew scene" started. Initially, when one of these places started up near where I lived I was quite enthusiastic. I went along and although the prices were ridiculous, it was a really nice change to find they had a weizen type beer, a German style pils type, a dark beer they called "dunkeru" and an English "ale type". I travelled around Japan a hell of a lot and drove everywhere from Kyushu up to Hokkaido. Over a period of a few years I went to well over a dozen similar microbrew type places around Japan and unfortunately came to the depressing conclusion that, with only one exception that sticks out in my mind, they were all the damn same. They all had a weizen, a pils, a dunkeru and usually an ale type as well, and they were all stupidly expensive. Hell, for the most part, they even served the same food.
It'd be fair to say that Korea doesn't really have these kind of places. But I don't see it as a big loss. Yes, you can go and drink something different to the local piss that you're sick of and convince yourself that you're sampling a "thriving microbrew scene" or whatever. But you'll pay a lot more for it than you would in Korea for just drinking something imported instead.
So pretty much like the convenience store fridge analogy for me - quite impressive variety on first glance, but all largely the same underneath.
Obviously, this is all completely personal opinion territory and as I said earlier, of those with a clear preference, the majority do undeniably favour the Japanese brands, a fair number of Koreans among them. But I honestly think some of those folk are at least slightly influenced by the feeling that it's cool to like Japanese stuff. I've had a few amusing encounters in Korea with people who extolled the virtues of Asahi and Kirin, whose enthusiasm for said Japanese beers suddenly waned dramatically when I pointed out that, in Korea, both of those tend to be beer brewed in China with an Asahi or Kirin label stuck on the bottle.  |
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heavymetalpancakes
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| ippy wrote: |
These are my favorite discussions.
I did jet 2005-2009
Came to korea 2009-2011
Came back to japan 2011 - ongoing.
I taught JHS pretty much all of them (Epik, JET and dispatch).
So all ALT/NET experience and all of it at the same grade.
A few things (with the ESID proviso):
You are MUCH more responsible for your classes in korea. In japan youre more your classic team teaching role. In korea youre T1. If you want to teach, youll like teaching more in korea i think. It certauinly felta lot more fulfilling.
Speaking of...
(this might be tempered by the fact i taught at an all girls middle school in korea), but i got WAY more enjoyment teaching in korea. The only way to explain it is that korean middle school kids feel a lot like japanese elementary school kids in their POSITIVITY and outward going attitude to lessons (I donot mean in their emotional or intellectual development).
The level is sort of the same... but if i was a bit of a pedant id say that the bell curve is pretty similar but that korean students maybe are a few points higher on average. In addition you are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to find students in Korea with fluency (usually students that were sent to the philippines for a few months of summer schooling or the like).
For the most part though the middle students are pretty much the same level. Thes also the same general interest in English you might find in japan, but the kids in korea feel much more inclined to play up a bit if youre a soft touch (im a soft touch).
Truthfully i got a lot of job fulfillment teaching in korea and it was honestly a stack of fun.
I also get some fulfillment in japan, but it can be a little more... frustrating maybe. I wont go into it since im sure you know for yourself being a teacher in japan, but i can tell you that korean kids are a breath of fresh air in many ways and you might have to teach in a normal middle school in japan to understand just why that is.
The kids are lovely in both countries mind you and you can get job fulfillment anywhere youre teaching, but honestly i adored teaching in korea. My second graders (when i first arrived) are the best group of students ive ever taught. They werent the best students, but even the lowest students were really cheerful and friendly.
Which brings me to...
Celebrity.
You know what its like in japan. No one gives a crap if you exist or not. One of my mates actually complained about this the other day in fact. Truth is, i like it, you can just get on with things and pick up a pay cheque. In korea you are MUCH more public property. The kids treat you like a celebrity, mums will throw their kids at you when youre hungover out shopping at home plus, and ajjumas will prattle on at you not even caring if you patrtake in the conversation. Youre on display a lot more, and youre more special for it. Maybe this is an inverse rule the closer you get to a big city. But i live rural japan and people are far too polite to start whittering at me in the street just because im not korean.
Swings and roundabouts on this. Youll love just how genuinely youre treat with adoration. Youll also start moaning about the invasion of your private space.
Shops are worse in korea. You wont find creature comforts as easy, but on the flip side, no matter where you are, youre probably an hour or two away from a big city.
Hotels, transport and food will blow your head off at a) how awesome it is; and b) how cheap it is. Internet cafes are EVERYWHERE. Theres always a party somewhere. The music sucks for the most part (unless you love hip hop and rnb, but yeah... its alright for a night out. You can also pretty much blag your way into a lot of clubs by being a foreigner and cheerful. At least, i could
Korean uni dudes are AWESOME fun.
The telly as great. Family outing and infinity challenge will give you a real idea of the honest un-threatened ajjoshi spirit. I think those two programes single handedly made me forgive any bullshit i came across in my time there. Yes, youll meet assholes, and theyll be WAY more in your face than in japan, but just count to ten and walk off.
Another negative is domestics.
Add to that the general mistreatment of animals.
It can stink something fierce. Think dotonburi.
I dont think its as beautiful as japan in terms of nature either. But then again i live in nagano. I also lived in saitama and anything beats that hole.
Basically you should do it. It s a really fun place to live. You might end up loving it. But if you dont you can always check out china or thailand next.
Oh yeah, and you can save cash pretty easy. |
This. I've done Korea for several years and Japan for a year. Japan is better in some aspects but at the end of the day, you'll be saving less money in Japan and have a less satisfying job. Also, I found I always felt alone and that people didn't know what to do around me because my Japanese wasn't perfect so people just stayed the F away from me in Japan whereas in Korea, people will go over the top trying to talk to you and befriend you.
I liked Japan but I found it to be cold, unfriendly, over expensive, and I didn't like the food. Then again, I only lived in Saitama and commuted to Tokyo so I'd imagine it wasn't like that everywhere. |
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silence.kit
Joined: 14 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
| silence.kit wrote: |
Japanese beer is a great deal better. They have a thriving microbrew scene whereas Korea has only two microbreweries and one of them is quite poor.
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Sorry, but I have to say that I wasn't ultimately any more impressed with the "microbrew scene" in Japan than I was with the number of differently labelled beer cans in the convenience store fridge.
I first lived in Japan long before the "microbrew scene" started. Initially, when one of these places started up near where I lived I was quite enthusiastic. I went along and although the prices were ridiculous, it was a really nice change to find they had a weizen type beer, a German style pils type, a dark beer they called "dunkeru" and an English "ale type". I travelled around Japan a hell of a lot and drove everywhere from Kyushu up to Hokkaido. Over a period of a few years I went to well over a dozen similar microbrew type places around Japan and unfortunately came to the depressing conclusion that, with only one exception that sticks out in my mind, they were all the damn same. They all had a weizen, a pils, a dunkeru and usually an ale type as well, and they were all stupidly expensive. Hell, for the most part, they even served the same food.
It'd be fair to say that Korea doesn't really have these kind of places. But I don't see it as a big loss. Yes, you can go and drink something different to the local piss that you're sick of and convince yourself that you're sampling a "thriving microbrew scene" or whatever. But you'll pay a lot more for it than you would in Korea for just drinking something imported instead.
So pretty much like the convenience store fridge analogy for me - quite impressive variety on first glance, but all largely the same underneath.
Obviously, this is all completely personal opinion territory and as I said earlier, of those with a clear preference, the majority do undeniably favour the Japanese brands, a fair number of Koreans among them. But I honestly think some of those folk are at least slightly influenced by the feeling that it's cool to like Japanese stuff. I've had a few amusing encounters in Korea with people who extolled the virtues of Asahi and Kirin, whose enthusiasm for said Japanese beers suddenly waned dramatically when I pointed out that, in Korea, both of those tend to be beer brewed in China with an Asahi or Kirin label stuck on the bottle. |
When was the last time you sought out beer in Japan because things have changed a lot since they were brewing average German-style beer. That's about where Korea is now, but Japan is far ahead and is doing great things with beer. I didn't run into a single wiezen or dunkel or whatever. I hate those beers.
They are incredibly expensive, I'll give you that, but they are much more skillfully crafted than anything I have tasted in Korea Breweries like Baird and Swan Lake amongst a long list (http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/breweries/brewers-directory-0-105.htm) of other breweries make a number of very good beers. I liked everything I tried from Baird, particularly the IPA and Brown Ale and Swan Lake makes a great Barley Wine. To compare them to things found in the average GS25 cooler in Korea is rather ignorant, no offense intended. Also, Japan seems to be much more privy to good beer and frankly just good booze. A good drink in Korea, of any kind, is very hard to find. A standard Old Fashioned will cost you at least 18,000 won. It's ridiculous.
I wasn't talking about Japanofiles that love everything Japanese; I'm saying that most beer in Korea tastes like crap and at least Japan has widely available and very tasty alternatives. I went to several bars that served a wide variety, such as beers from Stone or Brooklyn Brewing.
I do think it's absurd that people in Korea spend 9,000 won on an Asahi when it tastes like Cass, but that's beside the point. Next to America, Japan is the most exciting place in the world for beer. There really isn't even much of an argument. It's just a better place for beer, if you're willing to pay for it. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Japan has better beer and then some if you can afford it |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| silence.kit wrote: |
To compare them to things found in the average GS25 cooler in Korea is rather ignorant, no offense intended.
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You misunderstood there. My reference to convenience store fridges was to those in Japanese convenience stores. Where a lot of people are initially impressed with what appears to be a vast array of Japanese canned beer, only for further investigation to reveal it's same piss in different can.
| silence.kit wrote: |
| Next to America, Japan is the most exciting place in the world for beer. There really isn't even much of an argument. |
Like I said, this is personal opinion territory and it's getting silly if anyone tries to paint their opinion as more than just a personal opinion, even if it's a popular one.
And I'm not saying Korea is a better place for a beer drinker, just that I don't think there's that much difference when you factor everything in, including the much greater accessibility of quality imported beer in Korea. I know a lot of people would disagree, and don't really need that confirming, but I've encountered enough folk who didn't to be confident it's a reasonable opinion. To be fair, most who shared my view were fellow Europeans, and if I had an America-centric view then I might see it differently. |
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silence.kit
Joined: 14 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
| silence.kit wrote: |
To compare them to things found in the average GS25 cooler in Korea is rather ignorant, no offense intended.
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You misunderstood there. My reference to convenience store fridges was to those in Japanese convenience stores. Where a lot of people are initially impressed with what appears to be a vast array of Japanese canned beer, only for further investigation to reveal it's same piss in different can.
| silence.kit wrote: |
| Next to America, Japan is the most exciting place in the world for beer. There really isn't even much of an argument. |
Like I said, this is personal opinion territory and it's getting silly if anyone tries to paint their opinion as more than just a personal opinion, even if it's a popular one.
And I'm not saying Korea is a better place for a beer drinker, just that I don't think there's that much difference when you factor everything in, including the much greater accessibility of quality imported beer in Korea. I know a lot of people would disagree, and don't really need that confirming, but I've encountered enough folk who didn't to be confident it's a reasonable opinion. To be fair, most who shared my view were fellow Europeans, and if I had an America-centric view then I might see it differently. |
Is there much better access to imported beer in Korea? There's a variety of German beers here, a few Belgian beers, and a handful of American beers. I went to several beer bars in Japan and found a MUCH greater variety of beers there. Korea doesn't even have a proper beer store.
Edit: Admittedly I am much more familiar with the beer scene in the States than I am anywhere else and it seems to me that they are brewing the widest variety of beers (even though I haven't been familiar with it for years). I can't speak for German microbreweries, but only a handful of styles seem to make it out of Germany. Belgian beers have quite a bit of variety, but it seems they are constricted some by tradition. Of course this is just my opinion. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| silence.kit wrote: |
Is there much better access to imported beer in Korea? There's a variety of German beers here, a few Belgian beers, and a handful of American beers.
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No, there's a huge lot more than that. And given that I'm also factoring in what you can get from supermarkets etc. to take home, then I'm definitely sticking to a 'yes' as the answer to that question. If you go to a Home Plus or E-mart here, you'll almost certainly have beers from about 20 different foreign countries or more. In fact, about a month ago I actually counted how many different foreign countries' beer my local Home Plus was stocking - it was 32. Over the last 3 years, I've had half a dozen people now (or then) living in Japan come to visit me. All of them said they thought the range of foreign beers you'd see on your average shopping trip here was much better than what you'd see on the equivalent shopping trip over there.
Unsurprisingly, because supermarkets there will often stock nothing but Japanese brands. When you do get a range of other countries' beer in a supermarket, you'll be lucky if the number reaches double figures. In the (fairly large) Japanese city where I used to live, there was this fairly quaint oddity of a liquor shop which did have a very good selection from all over the world, including some I've never seen here. But that guy's prices reflected the fact that very few people interested in foreign beer (a) existed locally and (b) knew of his shop, and a place like that was a bit of a one-off. He also had extremely random opening hours and I made many a wasted trip there!
It seems like you're an American who's really into the "microbrew scene". If you were saying that for an American into the microbrew scene, Japan is a better bet than Korea then I doubt I'd argue. Largely because I'm neither of those, nor are many of the other beer drinkers I know.
Anyway, we obviously have different preferences in beer and could go round in circles for ever so it's probably best we agree to disagree. Cheers!
...and apologies to the OP for this alcoholic hijack of your thread. |
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Brooks
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if I am in Korea again I will check out those two stores you mentioned.
It is good to shop in Korea with yen in my pocket. I can save money. I do think Korea has gotten more expensive than it used to be.
Beer is expensive in Japan. There is variety, though. The Oktoberfest will start soon in Yokohama. Beer and glasses are all from Germany.
Near the Sky Tree there is a restaurant with five bars. One is British, one Czech, one Belgian, one American, and one German.
Also, near Ryogoku is the bar Popeye`s, which has at least 40 microbrews from Japan. |
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah imported beer is pricey in Korea, too. I've only seen 10 different imported beers in my local Homeplus and Emart and they're priced at 3.5k up a can. That's more than you'd pay in a convenience store in the UK and 50% more than some deals in supermarkets.
Why? I have no idea. Beer doesn't have a short shelf life and can be brewed anywhere, under license. Yet you can get 2 liters of Korean beer for less than the price of 2 cans of Holsten. Luckily I like Cass Red and it comes in cans and bottles. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| mushroomyakuza wrote: |
| Some of you seem to have a lot of good things to say about China, wondering if you speak from personal experience or second hand accounts? |
I've never worked in Japan, but I have worked in both Korea and China. China is a waste hole of *bleep*. My advice is stick with your original question: Stay in Japan or move to Korea.
My experience with China:
-The pay is low
-You have to put up with the constant government propaganda
-The internet is heavily censored so you can forget about net surfing unless you buy into a VPN (and even then that can fail because the government tries to shut those down).
-I never found Chinese particularly friendly aside from two student who I was friends with
-No health insurance |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| mushroomyakuza wrote: |
| Some of you seem to have a lot of good things to say about China, wondering if you speak from personal experience or second hand accounts? |
I've never worked in Japan, but I have worked in both Korea and China. China is a waste hole of *bleep*. My advice is stick with your original question: Stay in Japan or move to Korea.
My experience with China:
-The pay is low it's entirely possible to make the same or more as K with qualifications
-You have to put up with the constant government propaganda not noticed this so much; don't watch the news, and the wife isn't interested in that stuff
-The internet is heavily censored so you can forget about net surfing unless you buy into a VPN (and even then that can fail because the government tries to shut those down). the internet is censored, but am able to do whatever with a good VPN (works always)
-I never found Chinese particularly friendly aside from two student who I was friends with wouldn't say everyone is particularly friendly (many are), but certainly not rude either (some are)
-No health insurance healthcare is cheap, supplemental insurance is not that expensive, many meds that require a scrip in the west or Korea can be bought without a prescription at pharmacies |
Hey, MD, sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience in China. I'm curious as to when you were there and where you lived. My experience has been a bit different (blue above). I've been in Shanghai for a couple of years after having lived in Seoul for five. I enjoy both places. I would not rule out Shanghai as a possible next location if I was the op. |
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