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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| US government agencies and US law enforcement agencies have no power over me in Korea. |
Unless the Korean government decides to cooperate with them and grant them certain authority. |
The Korean government granting authority to foreign military police over civilians off-base in Korea? Yeah, right.
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| You seem to forget that MPs in Korea actually have law enforcement authority. It only applies over military personnel but they have actual authority. |
Re-read your own post here. The MPs only have authority over SOFA personnel. As I am not SOFA personnel, there is nothing to forget: they do not have authority over me off-base.
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| Yeah, right. And how exactly do you think they'll force me to show them my identification? |
Summon the Korean police, who DO have the authority to compel you to show your ID. Between the two- the MPs and the KNPs, one of them will have that authority. |
The Korean police have authority to demand I present identification when they are in the lawful performance of their duties and suspect me of a crime. Yet again, "looking foreign" is not a crime. But, sure, the MPs can summon the Korean police all they want. What the MPs certainly cannot do is detain me while they await the arrival of said Korean cops. The MPs on the other hand have no authority whatsoever over me or any other non-SOFA personnel off-base.
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| They do have authority over SOFA personnel. So if you refuse to show your ID, what's to stop the table full of soldiers in civilian clothing right next to you from pulling the same thing? If the MP looks weak in front of you, what do you think will happen at the next table? |
I couldn't care less. It really is not my problem. And I am not the MP's problem as--wait for it--can you guess what I'm going to type here?--the MP has exactly zero authority over me off-base.
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| Yet again: the MPs do not have the authority nor the duty to check identification of non-SOFA personnel off-base. |
Yes, they technically don't. |
There's no "technically" about it. The MP has no authority over me or any other non-SOFA personnel off-base.
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| But do you think they will get a stern reprimand for checking the IDs of a few English teachers who happen to be in some bar right next to the base? |
I couldn't care less. It's not my problem. Nor am I the MP's problem unless he violates the law and my rights. Then the problem will be his and his chain-of-command's.
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| You seem to think that either the cops care or someone else would care in that situation. That's amusing. |
I expect law enforcement personnel to be rather more concerned than you appear to be with people's rights and also with what law enforcement personnel's duties are and are not.
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| What, you think there's never been a case where some GI decided to claim he was an English Teacher and maybe tried to make some claim of "You can't demand my ID"? I'm willing to be that that's happened before. |
You didn't really read the thread all that well, did you? A few months ago, 'twas published in the court-martial results that a soldier did try that and he was punished for it.
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| And I'm willing to bet that in order to prevent that they will find a way to see your ID, one way or the other. |
And how do you propose the MPs perform this unlawful act in a lawful manner?
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| And if you do frequent that bar, and odds are the MPs might too, do you really want to cop an attitude with the MPs who when they're off duty, might decide to beat the crap out of you. Of course you can rest comfortable knowing that the KCops and the MPs will totally back you over them. |
Ah, here's the Steelrails I remember: vigilante violence. Well, in the first place I don't frequent bars. In the second place, if the MP decides to assault me, I certainly won't let it rest there. I'd be more than happy to take it to both the Korean civilian authorities and the USFK authorities. Or do you think that a military police badge exempts someone from consequences for his crimes? |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
Growing a set would be the larger issue. |
Yes, because the true test of manhood is crying about civil rights in a night club in Itaewon to a couple of MPs who really couldn't give a shit who you are if you are not army.
I love how in a country where so many of the foreign men spend their working day in the company of kids, displays of masculinity are of the utmost importance, even in the most trivial of situations. |
I love how in a country where so many of the posters are supposed to have reading comprehension skills...they don't.
Try reading the post again for the context in which that statement was made.
Again...more posters projecting emasculating behaviors onto others.
Rather telling.
And this...
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| Transmorgifier got it right after a day of babysitting kindy acting all macho on the internet is all you got. |
Rollo...grow up...seriously.
And this is priceless
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| And if you do frequent that bar, and odds are the MPs might too, do you really want to cop an attitude with the MPs who when they're off duty, might decide to beat the crap out of you. |
This is the type of attitude of a coward.
No offense SR, but some of us don't walk around in fear of other men.
And that statement is totally fictitious.
In defense of the MP's...most have enough of their masculinity in place that they wouldn't need to seek you out to attempt to prove it.
Again, if you want to show your ID...fine.
But it really isn't that big a deal to not show it.
Some of you are making this out to be some huge identity crisis.
Get a grip. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| The Korean government granting authority to foreign military police over civilians off-base in Korea? Yeah, right. |
I could certainly see them perhaps deciding to grant increased authority in certain areas or in certain capacities. Not very likely, but not outside the realm of possibility. Basically as long as it doesn't affect Korean nationals, they might consider any requests for increased authority.
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| Re-read your own post here. The MPs only have authority over SOFA personnel. As I am not SOFA personnel, there is nothing to forget: they do not have authority over me off-base. |
Yes, but you claimed that they have zero authority period. They do have authority, just not authority over you. That's different from "random dude off the street".
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| The Korean police have authority to demand I present identification when they are in the lawful performance of their duties and suspect me of a crime. Yet again, "looking foreign" is not a crime. |
Fine. "He was acting aggresively and distrubing the peace". You really think the cops would lack for an excuse to check your ID?
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| Re-read your own post here. The MPs only have authority over SOFA personnel. As I am not SOFA personnel, there is nothing to forget: they do not have authority over me off-base. |
You don't seem to quite understand that in order to fulfill their mandate of exercising authority over SOFA personnel, that that results in a grey area of exercising their duties. There's practical considerations to think about.
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| There's no "technically" about it. The MP has no authority over me or any other non-SOFA personnel off-base. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were involved in an altercation with a SOFA individual and the MPs responded, wouldn't there be some type of legal procedure involving them? At the very least they would take your statements and such. Isn't it more fair to say then that they have no authority over you baring certain circumstances?
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| I expect law enforcement personnel to be rather more concerned than you appear to be with people's rights and also with what law enforcement personnel's duties are and are not. |
Yes, they have to care about rights. They also have to performt heir duties. Sometimes in an effort to perform their duties, things bump up against people's rights. Some might chose to place greater emphasis on performing their duties than respecting your rights. It's not like that's an unusual thing for law enforcement to do.
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You didn't really read the thread all that well, did you? A few months ago, 'twas published in the court-martial results that a soldier did try that and he was punished for it.
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Yes. I was being sarcastic. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I don't think he was busted because the MPs went "Oh, you're an English Teacher? Sorry, we have no authority to ask for your ID". If all you could say was "I'm an English Teacher" and that would be that, then every GI would pull that excuse and they would just keep the MPs home. Obviously they don't do that, so obviously there is something that makes them keep doing what they do and asking to see ID.
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| And how do you propose the MPs perform this unlawful act in a lawful manner? |
By breaking the law and lying. The same thing cops always do.
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| Ah, here's the Steelrails I remember: vigilante violence. Well, in the first place I don't frequent bars. In the second place, if the MP decides to assault me, I certainly won't let it rest there. I'd be more than happy to take it to both the Korean civilian authorities and the USFK authorities. Or do you think that a military police badge exempts someone from consequences for his crimes? |
Hey, I didn't say it was right. I'm just saying that that's what might happen.
Look CentralCali, you are absolutely right in theory and in legal fact. I'm just trying to talk about the fact that those thing might not necessarily matter in this situation.
And really, things could turn a might bit ugly if you try to claim legal regulations while in some Juicy Bar owned by the mob. I mean, really. It's one thing if they walked into TGIFriday's and did that, it's another in a near-den of iniquity. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I could certainly see them perhaps deciding to grant increased authority in certain areas or in certain capacities. Not very likely, but not outside the realm of possibility. Basically as long as it doesn't affect Korean nationals, they might consider any requests for increased authority. |
It's completely out of the realm of possibility and it is not provided for by law. You know, that thing you evidently don't give a hoot about.
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| Yes, but you claimed that they have zero authority period. |
Bull. I have consistently claimed that the MPs have no authority over non-SOFA personnel.
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| They do have authority, just not authority over you. That's different from "random dude off the street". |
The MPs have no authority over "random dude on the street"As the MPs do not have authority to be conducting sweeps of civilians off-base, my assertion is 100% correct: the MPs have no authority over non-SOFA personnel off-base.
Perhaps you've noticed a common pattern in my posts here? That pattern would be the term "non-SOFA personnel off-base." And those would be the very words you just pretended I did not state.
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| The Korean police have authority to demand I present identification when they are in the lawful performance of their duties and suspect me of a crime. Yet again, "looking foreign" is not a crime. |
Fine. "He was acting aggresively and distrubing the peace". You really think the cops would lack for an excuse to check your ID? |
I don't care. If the KNP officer has a justifiable excuse, fine, he can check me, he can even detain me if it's legally necessary. What is not permissible is for a foreign MP off-base to detain me or any other non-SOFA personnel when we are not threatening their safety.
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| You don't seem to quite understand that in order to fulfill their mandate of exercising authority over SOFA personnel, that that results in a grey area of exercising their duties. There's practical considerations to think about. |
You don't seem to fully grasp the English language is what I'm getting from your posts here. Once again: I don't care what problems the MPs have with "enforcing their mandate" off-base. Their "mandate" does not include excercising police powers over non-SOFA personnel off-base.
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| Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were involved in an altercation with a SOFA individual and the MPs responded, wouldn't there be some type of legal procedure involving them? At the very least they would take your statements and such. Isn't it more fair to say then that they have no authority over you baring certain circumstances? |
Taking witness statements from non-SOFA personnel off-base is not excercising police authority over said non-SOFA personnel. It is simply conducting an investigation of an offense allegedly committed by SOFA personnel.
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| Yes, they have to care about rights. They also have to performt heir duties. |
How many times do you have to be told this? Their duties do not include searching non-SOFA personnel off-base.
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| Sometimes in an effort to perform their duties, things bump up against people's rights. |
Now you're just making up excuses for unlawful behavior.
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| Some might chose to place greater emphasis on performing their duties than respecting your rights. |
Yet again: their duties do not include police powers over non-SOFA personnel off-base.
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| It's not like that's an unusual thing for law enforcement to do. |
And it's not unusual for law enforcement agencies who tread on rights to incur serious debts to their jurisdiction (municipal, state, federal) and, of course, to have a case dismissed by the court because of that quaint little "bumping up" you seem to like.
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| Yes. I was being sarcastic. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I don't think he was busted because the MPs went "Oh, you're an English Teacher? Sorry, we have no authority to ask for your ID". If all you could say was "I'm an English Teacher" and that would be that, then every GI would pull that excuse and they would just keep the MPs home. Obviously they don't do that, so obviously there is something that makes them keep doing what they do and asking to see ID. |
Once again: I don't care what problems the MPs have with exercising their jurisdiction over SOFA personnel off-base. The simple fact of the matter is that the MPs have no jurisdiction over non-SOFA personnel off-base.
Regarding the SOFA member in question, I'll go out on another limb and advance the idea that perhaps other SOFA personnel present witnessed his false official statement to the MPs and reported him to his chain-of-command.
This isn't going out on a limb here: did you ever consider that the mere presence of uniformed military police keeps the vast majority of the SOFA personnel a bit more settled down than otherwise?
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| And how do you propose the MPs perform this unlawful act in a lawful manner? |
By breaking the law and lying. The same thing cops always do. |
Ah, anything at all to make it sound like you know what's what, huh?
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| Ah, here's the Steelrails I remember: vigilante violence. Well, in the first place I don't frequent bars. In the second place, if the MP decides to assault me, I certainly won't let it rest there. I'd be more than happy to take it to both the Korean civilian authorities and the USFK authorities. Or do you think that a military police badge exempts someone from consequences for his crimes? |
Hey, I didn't say it was right. I'm just saying that that's what might happen. |
Glad to see that you do have a clue or two on this, then. As the poster above mentioned, many--if not most--of us don't live in fear of some over-zealous soldier taking so much offense at our dismissal of him when he's exceeding his authority that he'll track us down and throttle us. But, what the hey, say the guy does get that peeved and the next time I happen to be in Itaeweon and he sees me, he assaults me, ensuring that I know who he is and why he's doing that. I'm off to two, perhaps three, destinations as soon as practicable: 1-medical care, 2-Korean police station, 3-that soldier's CO's office.
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Look CentralCali, you are absolutely right in theory and in legal fact. I'm just trying to talk about the fact that those thing might not necessarily matter in this situation.
And really, things could turn a might bit ugly if you try to claim legal regulations while in some Juicy Bar owned by the mob. I mean, really. It's one thing if they walked into TGIFriday's and did that, it's another in a near-den of iniquity. |
See last comment above.
By the way, in my 20 years military service, which included of course standing Courtesy Patrol and Shore Patrol duties, not once did I request proof of identification of anyone in civilian attire off-base, nor did I see any CP, SP, or MP do that. So, let me explain this to you as simply as I can: The OP asked a question as to fact, which was answered by me along with at least one other poster with the facts.
p.s. I hope you enjoyed the sarcasm in the one or two places it reared its head in this post.
Last edited by CentralCali on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:16 am; edited 3 times in total |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| I guess that staying out past curfew is such a major concern for the military.So soldiers might lie to the MPs. Not my problem. Indoctrinate them better during basic training so they learn not to lie. If that doesn't work confine them to base at all times. There are bars on base. Or (and Im surprised this already hasnt happened) insert some kind of id chip into their shoulders. |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:41 am Post subject: |
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the fact is, the MP's can kick your ass, put a gun to your head!
put hang cuffs on you, arrest you and throw you into a Korean jail,
search you, strip search you, put a finger up your butt, do what ever they see fit. and you can call a lawyer, go to your embassy, right to the president, do what ever.. and nothing will happen.. and nothing will happen to those MP"S.. why? simple they are from THE UNITED STATES MILITARY!
their badge and their gun pretty much mean, F*** YOU, do as I say or find out what happens.
sad but true story.. world police my friend. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| ^ And with that post this thread is full on into delusional. |
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Paddycakes
Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: |
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the fact is, the MP's can kick your ass, put a gun to your head!
put hang cuffs on you, arrest you and throw you into a Korean jail,
search you, strip search you, put a finger up your butt, do what ever they see fit. and you can call a lawyer, go to your embassy, right to the president, do what ever.. and nothing will happen.. and nothing will happen to those MP"S.. why? simple they are from THE UNITED STATES MILITARY!
their badge and their gun pretty much mean, F*** YOU, do as I say or find out what happens. |
Hey, man, this is Dave's, not Gay Penthouse Letters.
"I never thought this could happen to me... I was in South Korea teaching English when suddenly..." |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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the fact is, the MP's can kick your ass, put a gun to your head!
put hang cuffs on you, arrest you and throw you into a Korean jail,
search you, strip search you, put a finger up your butt, do what ever they see fit. and you can call a lawyer, go to your embassy, right to the president, do what ever.. and nothing will happen.. and nothing will happen to those MP"S.. why? simple they are from THE UNITED STATES MILITARY!
their badge and their gun pretty much mean, F*** YOU, do as I say or find out what happens.
sad but true story.. world police my friend. |
An MP tried that to me once but I round-house kicked him to the jaw and all his teeth fell out. My girlfriend then kicked the other MP guy in the nuts and I hit him with an uppercut so hard his head hit the roof of the bar. Then I flew away with my girlfriend to Mars where we danced with Martians and David Bowie. It was an awesome night.
True story .....world peace my friend. |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:56 am Post subject: |
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all I am saying is, it could happen.. seriously.. think about it..
they are USA MP's |
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Koharski
Mod Team
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:22 am Post subject: |
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I think this has run its course.
Koharski |
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