Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Moondoggy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/opinion/south-koreas-thirst-for-learning.html?_r=0

korea needs native english teachers like Mr. Rogers who understands the culture and speaks (or tries to learn) the language AND VALUE THE PEOPLE.

[newb]

[Konglishman]

[happiness]

and let them do it...i teach elementary school classes and I can see even the 1st grade kids are used to sitting, listening to cds, and writing in textbooks. they only know games (when they see my ipad or phone, which i have a ton of esl apps on, they scream...GAY-IIIIM! ) They have little personality left and are not largely able to recognize a good or efficient way to study. That keeps us ESL and the Korean English teachers (who maybe largely are not good English speakers) in business. I never knock the head-down lemming run into the wall over and over, I want to paint the road showing them the way. Thats the education business here.

Now and then, you can find a student whos outside the box, but theyre not lucrative enough an endeavor, no?

(this was half sarcastic/half truth)

[some waygug-in]

[Steelrails]

[PatrickGHBusan]

Steel is right.

The burden of adaptation is clearly on the foreign worker, not on the local employer.

Should an employer do things make the foreign worker more confortable in the worlplace? Sure, within reasonable limits.

Should the foreign worker understand and respect the workplace culture and norms of the place where he is working? You bet.

[some waygug-in]

[quote="S
Generally the newly hired employee adapts to the culture of the institution they join, not the other way around. Doubly so for someone entering another country.[/quote]


I'm not saying foreign teachers shouldn't learn about Korean language and culture.

They should.

But if you want them to respect your language and culture, you need to

respect theirs.

[PatrickGHBusan]

[Konglishman]

[tideout]

This debate, like some others, always comes around again. I suppose it's because there's no simple response to it and it really involves a lot of complex areas.

I do think Korean kids are more disciplined than US kids. I also think there is a lot of inefficiency in the system there and there's a very negative downside to how Korean kids spend their lives.

RE:Learning the language and the culture issue.

I think the vast majority of Waygooks don't learn Korean on a serious level for a lot of reasons - not the least of which is they don't see themselves as staying in Korea. For many, it's a place to work and not much more. It would be interesting to see if Filipinos (for example) castigate one another for not learning enough Korean....I don't have a reason for not thinking they do, it's just hard to imagine for me.

Add to this the general cultural attitude of Koreans that foreigners really are different and can't possibly understand Koreans anyway and you have a mix that's hard to change.

One simple thing that might change this a bit is a change in immigration rules. If I've worked for 2-3 years w/o any legal issues and/or completed contracts why not issue a more open ended visa to work for a 2-3 year period in Korea that's not tied to a particular emnployer? Then I might begin to see SK as a place that I'd likely return to for work etc..? Why learn a language (or about a culture) when your ability to work legally there is so tied to the arbitrariness of your average Hogwon or Korean co-worker relationship?

This isn't blaming anyone, but I don't think Korea's a "go-to" country like other places. People come to shop, work or do some business but I don't think it's seen as a primary place to spend extended periods of time for many.

[PatrickGHBusan]

Tideout, you make many valid points.

I will just say that the status and rights of foreign workers in Korea (teachers in this case) is pretty similar to that of foreign workers in many countries. In the vast majority of cases the visa is time limited, has requirements and limitations and is only issued if a local employer sponsors the foreign worker. So in essence, the foreign worker, nearly anywhere, is only in that country because of a job and derives his entire right to stay there from that sponsored employment visa.

As for Korea, there have been allowances made for people who wish to stay longer. The "points system" can allow someone to gain a residency visa (F-visa) if that person meets certain requirements. Is it easy? No, it is not, but then again residency is a big deal for any country.

A country would have trouble issuing a completely free foreign worker visa and in fact this concept is pretty rare (or does it exist at all?). Japan has a slightly more relaxed visa system but a foreign teacher still needs a sponsor. Transfer from one jop to the next may be easier there but it remains a transfer from one sponsor to another. As such, this is not "visa ownership". To gain true labor mobility in a foreign country, you need residency in some form, that is a pretty standard international norm.

Could Korean streamline the visa renewal process for those who have been there on E2s for a few years? You bet they could and I hope they do that at some point. Still, and this often gets overlooked, the E2 visa program was never meant to be a long term residency program. It was and is aimed at filling a specific need (language teaching) for a specific period (a year at a time).

As for learning Korean, you are basically right in what you say. I will say this however, if a foreigner see's Korea as "just a place to work" and nothing more (which is fine by the way), then they really have very little basis to expect more from Korea in the way of acceptance....

[some waygug-in]

All very good points.

Just one thought; I see quite a few ads for teaching in Japan that require

some knowledge of Japanese language.

Why doesn't Korea start doing the same?

[Unibrow]

If they want to send their kids to school for 12 hours a day that's their business

[tideout]

Patrick,
No arguments from me on what you're saying and I think you're especially right about it sort of becoming a residency issue at some point.

I've worked in about three countries outside of the US now (and familiar with a fourth). I do feel that Korea's the most "controlling" and least flexible of the places I've been, but that argument could easily be different for others.

"the E2 visa program was never meant to be a long term residency program. It was and is aimed at filling a specific need (language teaching) for a specific period (a year at a time)."

I think we're making similar arguments on the learning Korean issue. I went to Japan for a year of study when I was getting a B.A.. This was during the boom years of Japan and it was the hot language to learn. I spoke it a higher level than most waygooks speak Korean. The day I left Japan was essentially the last day I ever used it. No one to blame for it but it just wasn't a part of life after Japan (Unless you stayed in Japan, lived in L.A. or were in a specific business area). I'm somewhat surprised at the number of people who've been in Korea for 5+ years and don't speak more than elementary Korean - I include people who are married and say they really like living in Korea. In short, I'm not sure the E2 "profile" is more than what you're saying - short term with a limited interest in working in exchange for pay. Hopefully it fills a need on both sides.

"As for learning Korean, you are basically right in what you say. I will say this however, if a foreigner see's Korea as "just a place to work" and nothing more (which is fine by the way), then they really have very little basis to expect more from Korea in the way of acceptance...."

Yeah, I think we're on the same page. In my working relationship with "Korea" I really loved the kids and certainly hope that they will have a positive outlook on interacting with foreigners in their lives because of it. My relationships with Korean co-workers spanned the full range. I hope the best for them while recognizing it's not a place I'd want to live in for a long period.