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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: MetaFitx is swaddled in cottonwool |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
[waddled in during your time in Korea?
(1)This is the most gossiping, heirarchical-establishing, relegating others to outsider status in daily life, jealous society I've ever lived in. I've lived in Japan, Taiwan, France, Ireland, Australia, and Germany. I've worked in Japan, Taiwan, France and Australia. I've studied in Ireland and Germany.
Lived - not been for a brief vacation. I'm a male Brit in his 30s. I live and work in Korea. While I agree with the Urban Myth's points about saudiman and have re-thought my advice to him, y(2)you can be the nicest waygug on planet earth and run up against first grade nastiness, pettiness, envy and slander in your job here like nothing else I've experienced. Anywhere.
All workplaces all over the world have backstabbers, gossipers, jealous gits ready to put somebody else in their perceived 'place'. Korea and Koreans are no different but the intensity is far worse here because of the culture that strongly emphasises Koreans stick together against outsiders even when Koreans are wrong.
(3)Many waygugs with perception as opposed to those who are not good at understanding what is going on in their workplace see that no matter how good they are at their job or decent and generous to their Korean co workers, if an issue comes up that's that - the Koreans band together. The waygug is not considered equal under any circumstances whether that is explicitly stated or not.
(4)If you are friendly with Korean co workers and another Korean co worker makes trouble for you, forget about your co worker's support. They are not loyal to you no matter how good you are to them - they fall in line with the heirarchy and in that heirarchy you are always at the bottom and excluded from vital information and genuine respect. No matter how good your Korean is. No matter if you hang out with your Korean co workers.
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I took the liberty of editing your post in order to respond to some of the points you made here and numbered them for greater clarity.
1. You must have been in some great work situations then. I've worked in several workplaces in my home country before coming here...and I've heard more gossiping and tittle-tattle there than here as a general rule.
2. Again you must have been lucky. It can be just as bad back home and even worse..because there since you are one of the "locals" you are often expected to take sides and play along with the office politics...whereas here you can play the foreigner 'card' and insulate yourself somewhat. I suggest you do a Google search and visit some sites like Ihatemyjob.com. There are numerous sites like that with literally thousands of people posting about jobs in their home countries and how hellish their particular situation is. While some people bring it on themselves and others do exaggerate...that is true here as well.
3. I've had Koreans take my side of an issue against other Koreans. Generally speaking though (and again this is true no matter where you go) people will side with people they have to work alongside with for a few years more than they will with a temporary worker who in most cases they will never see again. People also tend to side with their national counterparts more than they do an expat. Neither of these are uniquely Korean traits.
4. Again see number 3. You can (with time) win decent trustworthy Korean friends and not the 'fairweather' friends you seem to be making. But that does involve time and a fair amount of 'give and take'. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Apologists amaze me. They say, "You should understand Korean culture. Watch and learn the Korean way." But when we do and get a negative opinion of what we've observed we're attacked. In no newb, I've put in my time here. I have observed Korean culture. I would say without equivocation (from my personal experience) that Koreans (especially females) hold a grudge stronger and longer than most people back home. Koreans at large are also remarkably comfortable with gossiping. I was always taught that it was low behavior to spread rumors. If I hear some I keep it to myself. In my opinion, Koreans are much more comfortable spreading rumors than Westerners I know. That are also remarkably good at the passive-aggressive thing. Pretending to be your friend while undermining you at every step. That's just my experience. Again, when Koreans (or apologists) say that we don't understand Korean culture they are wrong. I understand it fine. There are just aspects of it that I find highly disagreeable.
Lastly, we are told to remember that different cultures often do things differently, and that they place different value on different things. What's offensive to us might not be offensive to them. Yet when we point out something "different" that we find offensive, apologists (like someone above) come on and say "No way, they are no different in this respect than anybody else in the world." Why can't there be differences between cultures for gossiping and grudge holding? Or can differences only be acknowledged when we deem them 'value neutral' or tilted in favor of Koreans? Is no criticism of Korea, however valid the observation, ever allowed past the PC police? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| Apologists amaze me. They say, "You should understand Korean culture. Watch and learn the Korean way." |
Never said anything like that in my post. It was a general remark. If anything it should read like this.
"You should understand work culture."
There is NO culture on Earth that is immune to gossiping, office politics and holding grudges. Personal experience is fine to report certainly...it shouldn't be taken as gospel and stated as fact.
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Again, when Koreans (or apologists) say that we don't understand Korean culture they are wrong. I understand it fine. |
Well then sir, I must take off my hat to you. Been here myself 12 years (going on 13), have a number of good Korean friends, been invited to Chusok/New Year dinners and have had any number of discussions with them...and I wouldn't venture to claim that I understand Korean culture.*
*(Excepting the parts of it that my friends represent.)
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Why can't there be differences between cultures for gossiping and grudge holding? |
There certainly can be. As I said in my post above it can be even worse at home since there you are more likely to be involved (even against your will) in office politics and taking sides. Whereas here you can play the foreigner card and be excepted from the worst of it. |
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newb
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Most posters are correct in that most Koreans are highly jeolous people. As a result, most Koreans are very unhappy at work. At my school, they do a lots of useless task and mindless work which they always complain about among themselves, but never questions the logic. They are almost like robots being controlled by their master.
They're jeolous because I don't have to put up with it like them. The way they express their jeolousy is by saying "I envy you........." But I alway give them the smiley face. |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| Been here myself 12 years (going on 13), have a number of good Korean friends, been invited to Chusok/New Year dinners and have had any number of discussions with them...and I wouldn't venture to claim that I understand Korean culture.* |
I thought you were a gyopo. Are you a gyopo? |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Koreans - the control freaks. Just get used to it and put up with it. Korea is still a great place to be. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Apologists amaze me. They say, "You should understand Korean culture. Watch and learn the Korean way." |
Never said anything like that in my post. It was a general remark. If anything it should read like this.
"You should understand work culture."
There is NO culture on Earth that is immune to gossiping, office politics and holding grudges. Personal experience is fine to report certainly...it shouldn't be taken as gospel and stated as fact.
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Again, when Koreans (or apologists) say that we don't understand Korean culture they are wrong. I understand it fine. |
Well then sir, I must take off my hat to you. Been here myself 12 years (going on 13), have a number of good Korean friends, been invited to Chusok/New Year dinners and have had any number of discussions with them...and I wouldn't venture to claim that I understand Korean culture.*
*(Excepting the parts of it that my friends represent.)
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Why can't there be differences between cultures for gossiping and grudge holding? |
There certainly can be. As I said in my post above it can be even worse at home since there you are more likely to be involved (even against your will) in office politics and taking sides. Whereas here you can play the foreigner card and be excepted from the worst of it. |
Very few that I know and have read about here have had your experiences.
You must have been very lucky or you have completely misread the situations that you've been in and have very little awareness.
No, you don't make friends with the locals, especially the men. At least not true friendships that are lasting.
I don't believe you. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Been here myself 12 years (going on 13), have a number of good Korean friends, been invited to Chusok/New Year dinners and have had any number of discussions with them...and I wouldn't venture to claim that I understand Korean culture.* |
I thought you were a gyopo. Are you a gyopo? |
No. I'm as WASP as they come. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Apologists amaze me. They say, "You should understand Korean culture. Watch and learn the Korean way." |
Never said anything like that in my post. It was a general remark. If anything it should read like this.
"You should understand work culture."
There is NO culture on Earth that is immune to gossiping, office politics and holding grudges. Personal experience is fine to report certainly...it shouldn't be taken as gospel and stated as fact.
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Again, when Koreans (or apologists) say that we don't understand Korean culture they are wrong. I understand it fine. |
Well then sir, I must take off my hat to you. Been here myself 12 years (going on 13), have a number of good Korean friends, been invited to Chusok/New Year dinners and have had any number of discussions with them...and I wouldn't venture to claim that I understand Korean culture.*
*(Excepting the parts of it that my friends represent.)
| Scorpion wrote: |
| Why can't there be differences between cultures for gossiping and grudge holding? |
There certainly can be. As I said in my post above it can be even worse at home since there you are more likely to be involved (even against your will) in office politics and taking sides. Whereas here you can play the foreigner card and be excepted from the worst of it. |
Very few that I know and have read about here have had your experiences.
You must have been very lucky or you have completely misread the situations that you've been in and have very little awareness.
No, you don't make friends with the locals, especially the men. At least not true friendships that are lasting.
I don't believe you. |
Whether or not you believe me makes no difference to the facts. Or to me for that matter. |
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nero
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Koreans, as a collective, are desperately insecure. This manifests itself in the c-blocking and passive-aggression from the men, the empty boasting and bitchiness and the 'looks over substance' superficiality that is so prevelant here.
I am from a small country the people of which are also pathetically insecure. I recognise the symptoms.
Americans don't get it. They have never been on the outside looking in.
Yes, there is bitching in other countries. it is usually from those who feel powerless.
I was completely screwed over for halloween by my lovely co-teacher who told me that we wouldn't be having a halloween party as there had been 'too many school picnics' and we had to use the day set aside for halloween party to 'catch up. I stupidly believed her and prepared the minimum of 'fun' halloween activities to do with my class.
Arrive at school yesterday. My co-t has been there for 3 hours preparing her classroom. She had huge halloween parties for each of her classes. She told my students we were having a halloween party. They came in costumes. I felt like a douche-bag.
Luckily I had some activities etc for them...but why would you do that?
Clam. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Whether or not you believe me makes no difference to the facts. Or to me for that matter. |
I don't care what you report, one way or the other. It doesn't change what I know or what other's know to be true.
I'm just saying that you've had a very unusual experience. Or maybe you're just an incredibly lucky person. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Whether or not you believe me makes no difference to the facts. Or to me for that matter. |
I don't care what you report, one way or the other. It doesn't change what I know or what other's know to be true.
I'm just saying that you've had a very unusual experience. Or maybe you're just an incredibly lucky person. |
So because it hasn't happened to you or others that you know of...it can't happen to anyone?
I have no doubt that you know it to be true in your case or to be true in other cases
But to arrogantly assert that this is true period...is a bit much to swallow unless you've personally surveyed every foreigner in Korea. And that would include ones who are married to a Korean...many of whom are likely to say that their husband/wife is also a good friend.
Personally I know that is not true in my case as I have two very good male Korean friends who've gone to bat for me when I was a newbie in Korea. |
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Peter258
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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In general, do employers/recruiters ask you to provide a reference or instead, do they insist on contacting your former school's manager/principal?
What if you worked at a big hagwon franchise, and had a falling out with the manager but have a good reference from a Korean coteacher?
I was planning on using a Korean coteacher as a reference and giving recruiters his cell #. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
Image: The earth. The enemy is the ground beneath your feet. It has the gravity that holds you in place, a force of resistance. Root yourself deep in this earth to gain firmness and strength. Without an enemy to walk upon, to trample, you lose your bearings and all sense of proportion.
Authority: If you count on safety and do not think of danger, if you do not know enough to be wary when enemies arrive, this is called a sparrow nesting on a tent, a fish swimming in a cauldron - they won't last the day.
--Chuko Liang |
 Yeah and the Chinese are famous for their amazing military record.
Don't keep yourself awake at night dude. Devious people are usually miserable. Don't become like one of them. |
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Saudiman
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: |
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I've decided I have to move on. I'll come back to K-land once more for a visit but not to teach.
I spoke to a recruiter I had once worked with before the events that occurred, and described what happened. He told me that in the few years since I've been to Korea, all the schools have gotten much better with communications among each other.
He also told me that many schools and hagwons today want at least one reference from every Korean school you have taught at. I don't plan on teaching in a hagwon. Regardless, that means a reference from 7 different schools just on that EPIK contract, not to mention that university afterwards and jobs from before, which for me would make about 14 altogether, considering I also worked at multiple locations before on the same contract. Besides, Koreans move on from schools, a couple of my former places have closed, etc. All of this means, as he said, I would probably never get another position in Korea and that I should focus my energies on other places.
I am currently in Saudi Arabia. It's not paradise, but less xenophobia and no fussing about my weight, as many Saudis themselves are overweight. Glad to be out of K-land, I guess.
Why subject myself to narrow-minded and xenophobic folks? |
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