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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
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| I mean if he went into any high powered professional office and started interviewing people and asking who didn't have a degree he'd just end up talking to the janitor. |
He won't find many liberal arts grads, unless they went on to law school, and even then the lawyers with liberal arts undergrads (less T14) are chasing ambulances and skimming off foreclosures and not working in glass towers.
Anyway, the two articles I posted above are pretty good. The talk about a bubble and this and that is fine and good given the level of student debt. What is the purpose of college? That's the question. |
He'll find liberal arts students who went to the best schools. There are huge differences between the value of degrees based in school reputation. That being said, except for the bottom of the barrel schools, a degree is still a good investment, as born out by employment numbers and average earnings. There are lots of problems, especially jobs requiring degrees that shouldn't, but I think several people here are overstating their case. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I mean if he went into any high powered professional office and started interviewing people and asking who didn't have a degree he'd just end up talking to the janitor. |
He won't find many liberal arts grads, unless they went on to law school, and even then the lawyers with liberal arts undergrads (less T14) are chasing ambulances and skimming off foreclosures and not working in glass towers.
Anyway, the two articles I posted above are pretty good. The talk about a bubble and this and that is fine and good given the level of student debt. What is the purpose of college? That's the question. |
He'll find liberal arts students who went to the best schools. There are huge differences between the value of degrees based in school reputation. That being said, except for the bottom of the barrel schools, a degree is still a good investment, as born out by employment numbers and average earnings. There are lots of problems, especially jobs requiring degrees that shouldn't, but I think several people here are overstating their case. |
If one attends an Ivy then the world is open. It makes no sense to base the value of a thing referenced to the exceptions.
I do not believe university is a necessarily good investment. (why do people swing from education being a religious good to it being a financial good?) Less intelligent people don't go to university. For a good measure of value, we need to look at similar people from similar family structures with similar IQ who did and did not attend uni. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I mean if he went into any high powered professional office and started interviewing people and asking who didn't have a degree he'd just end up talking to the janitor. |
He won't find many liberal arts grads, unless they went on to law school, and even then the lawyers with liberal arts undergrads (less T14) are chasing ambulances and skimming off foreclosures and not working in glass towers.
Anyway, the two articles I posted above are pretty good. The talk about a bubble and this and that is fine and good given the level of student debt. What is the purpose of college? That's the question. |
He'll find liberal arts students who went to the best schools. There are huge differences between the value of degrees based in school reputation. That being said, except for the bottom of the barrel schools, a degree is still a good investment, as born out by employment numbers and average earnings. There are lots of problems, especially jobs requiring degrees that shouldn't, but I think several people here are overstating their case. |
If one attends an Ivy then the world is open. It makes no sense to base the value of a thing referenced to the exceptions.
I do not believe university is a necessarily good investment. (why do people swing from education being a religious good to it being a financial good?) Less intelligent people don't go to university. For a good measure of value, we need to look at similar people from similar family structures with similar IQ who did and did not attend uni. |
It's simple, look at job wanted ads for good jobs and look at how many require a degree. It can be a bubble in specific circumstances, such as low quality schools that allow anyone in, but as a whole if you look at actual numbers rather than blogs or YouTube videos it's clearly not. There are few paths to success, other than entrepreneurship, entertainment, slinging yayo, or blue collar jobs like plumbing, that don't require a degree. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Most of those people in the video were young, which is a shame that they don't have a good job, but as the article mentioned young people fresh out of college will always have a harder time getting a good job. I'd be willing to bet that as they get older their degree will be more valuable to them. |
How is that degree going to get more valuable? In fact it becomes virtually worthless after a few years of working some crap minimum wage job. Good jobs hire people with skills and experience. Academic qualifications are less important (although for good jobs they usually are still essential, but you're often looking more at a masters degree or better).
You don't need a degree to be a plumber. Or a carpenter. Or an inventor. Or to work for small business, developing a skill set that will enable you to start your own business someday. The problem is that everyone wants to be a lawyer, doctor, or corporate executive. Only some people can do that. But you can make a good, honest living doing nearly any kind of trade job or setting up a small business. The catch is that you need actual skills - this requires a long apprenticeship phase, but certainly does not require a college degree. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Most of those people in the video were young, which is a shame that they don't have a good job, but as the article mentioned young people fresh out of college will always have a harder time getting a good job. I'd be willing to bet that as they get older their degree will be more valuable to them. |
How is that degree going to get more valuable? In fact it becomes virtually worthless after a few years of working some crap minimum wage job. Good jobs hire people with skills and experience. Academic qualifications are less important (although for good jobs they usually are still essential, but you're often looking more at a masters degree or better).
You don't need a degree to be a plumber. Or a carpenter. Or an inventor. Or to work for small business, developing a skill set that will enable you to start your own business someday. The problem is that everyone wants to be a lawyer, doctor, or corporate executive. Only some people can do that. But you can make a good, honest living doing nearly any kind of trade job or setting up a small business. The catch is that you need actual skills - this requires a long apprenticeship phase, but certainly does not require a college degree. |
How many people who go to a college would be willing to do low class work, regardless of how it paid, as a carpenter or a plumber? Not to mention how many job openings are there really for that kind of work, especially in this economy where good paying blue collar jobs are increasingly going overseas or being phased out. The one that I see a lot of people doing, at least in the unofficial sample of my friends on facebook, is turning to being a nurse when they can't find a job in their field. You mention apprenticeships, but how many of those are even offered in the States? I think community college is great, but this is besides the point of whether a BA/BS is worthless.
I would say that a major problem is companies wanting people to have degrees for things like being a receptionist or an office aid, but that's a different discussion. I've known many people, most people it seems like, who for the first year or two out of college don't find a good job, and do part time or minimum wage work before they are able to make a breakthrough somehow. Again, the numbers all show that for most people college is still a good investment, but they also show that there are many problems. Many of the problems aren't the faults of the colleges themselves, but some of course are. Experience is much more valuable than a degree, but in most professional fields you aren't going to get that experience with out a degree, and if you can even get in, you will be passed over for people with the degree when it comes time to move up in almost any organization. |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| The wealthy Koch brothers have enough money to pay off everyone's student loan and then some. Let's make them pay off student loans. They owe it to America after the crap they've pulled in the last 30 years. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
| The wealthy Koch brothers have enough money to pay off everyone's student loan and then some. Let's make them pay off student loans. They owe it to America after the crap they've pulled in the last 30 years. |
How do they owe me? I've never met them or had anything to do with them.
The problem was and still is, easy money. The creditors and debtors are both to blame for this. |
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mnjetter
Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Location: Seoul, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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In this thread, I agree with Steelrails for the most part. I am a debtor myself, with over $80k in loans. However, I have a good job here in Korea that enables me to save enough to pay it off as necessary. I believe in personal responsibility, and consider it a matter of pride that I've never been delinquent on a loan, and take responsibility for the conscious decision I made to weigh the quality of education against the likely financial hardship that follows. I do with more people would be encouraged to take personal responsibility, and I fear that forgiving student loan debt outright will simply lead to more problems---students will feel safer in taking out loans that they know they don't have to pay back, and universities will continue to give their upper administration million-dollar salaries while increasing tuition and fees far beyond the rise of inflation.
On the other hand, there are certainly things that need to be addressed. Student debt should be seen as no different from other kinds of debt, and should be dischargeable in bankruptcy. I've heard stories of people who have died, and their student loans get automatically transferred to their next-of-kin who are already reeling under the cost of having tried in vain to keep their loved one alive.
Also, I would make two changes to the loan system itself.
1) The interest rate should never be above 5%. Period.
2) There should be things in the loan contract that are not able to be changed without the debtor's consent. When I signed on to my loans, I made a conscious note that they were all variable-rate loans. That was a deciding factor in my decision to take loans out at the time. I thought that, even though two were at 6.8% and one at 7.9%, they will go down over time, since they were already close to the 8% max. Much to my surprise, two years later, I find out that when they got sold to the Great Lakes financial company for the repayment period, they had somehow been transformed into fixed-rate loans without my permission or even my knowledge. I cannot find any other people complaining about this on the web, and there doesn't seem to be a civil or criminal proceeding against Great Lakes, so I assume this is a legal practice. It shouldn't be. Thanks to this, I will be unable to buy a house or save for retirement in my current career track until I am in my 60s. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
The problem was and still is, easy money. The creditors and debtors are both to blame for this.
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Depends on who you mean by debtors. If you mean private equity barons like Mitt Romney then I won't argue. But if you mean poor minorities who were aggressively sold ARMs they didn't understand . . .
I'm also not too keen on blaming 18-year-olds whom are told they must get a good education to obtain a bright future, but lack any available capital to do so, being only 18-years of age. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
The problem was and still is, easy money. The creditors and debtors are both to blame for this.
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Depends on who you mean by debtors. If you mean private equity barons like Mitt Romney then I won't argue. But if you mean poor minorities who were aggressively sold ARMs they didn't understand . . .
I'm also not too keen on blaming 18-year-olds whom are told they must get a good education to obtain a bright future, but lack any available capital to do so, being only 18-years of age. |
This is another problem. At 18 you're either an adult or you aren't. No excuses. If they aren't competent enough to sign loans then they aren't competent enough to vote and should the ability to do both stripped away. Otherwise, like voting, you make your bed and you lie in it.
I agree that debt should be debt. Student loans should be able to go into bankruptcy. Along those lines, people who willfully default and evade on their loans should be able to have their degrees seized and their credentials revoked.
The solution is not in debt forgiveness but in restructuring both education and the economy to focus on gainful employment rather than capital gains or the welfare state. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
| The wealthy Koch brothers have enough money to pay off everyone's student loan and then some. Let's make them pay off student loans. They owe it to America after the crap they've pulled in the last 30 years. |
I still have a chunk of change I gotta pay until I'm free and clear and obviously I'd breathe a sigh of relief if I knew I didn't have to pay anymore, but the post above is indicative of what imo is wrong with so many today. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| If you don't want to pay D.C on ideological grounds I can definitely understand, but saying that rich people owe you personally is a stretch. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I agree that debt should be debt. Student loans should be able to go into bankruptcy. Along those lines, people who willfully default and evade on their loans should be able to have their degrees seized and their credentials revoked. |
This already happens to an extent.
| Quote: |
| In some states, professional licensing bodies can cancel or suspend professional licenses of student loan defaulters. Some licensing bodies can refuse to issue licenses to student loan defaulters. Professions that are affected by this include attorneys, doctors, state officers and teachers. You can request the body to review the action. |
Of course, this underscores the totally arbitrary nature of licensing; either one is competent to practice law/medicine/teaching/etc, or they aren't, and once you start withholding licences for non-competency-based reasons, you've shown it's not about determining competency at all.
What I dislike about Steelrail's reflexive "blame both parties" position is that it ignores the fact that the current system was designed by predatory usurers, with active and malicious intent, to operate like a spider-web. The fly may have been foolish to get caught, but that's what it is: foolishness, not guilt. The student taking the loan is a foolish actor, while the lending industry is a malevolent actor. This is a real difference, and ought to be taken into account when assigning "blame." |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| How many people who go to a college would be willing to do low class work, regardless of how it paid, as a carpenter or a plumber? |
I don't know. What I do know is that work is work. Better to make a living as a plumber than to waste your 20's and 30's working a dead end min. wage job.
| Quote: |
| Not to mention how many job openings are there really for that kind of work, especially in this economy where good paying blue collar jobs are increasingly going overseas or being phased out. The one that I see a lot of people doing, at least in the unofficial sample of my friends on facebook, is turning to being a nurse when they can't find a job in their field. You mention apprenticeships, but how many of those are even offered in the States? I think community college is great, but this is besides the point of whether a BA/BS is worthless. |
There are always job openings if you have the right skills. If nothing else, you just charge less than your competition (it's supply and demand). I'm not sure how cut throat the plumbing sector is, but I'm guessing there's more opportunity there than with lib. arts majors... People will always need the services of plumbers.
| Quote: |
| Again, the numbers all show that for most people college is still a good investment |
Really? What numbers are those? If you're working as a waitress 5 years after racking up $80k in debt to get a degree you've never used, then I pretty much guarantee you it's not going to be a good return on investment. If you're talking in averages, then by all means show me the data (I'd actually be curious to see it). |
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sallymonster
Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Location: Seattle area
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Most of those people in the video were young, which is a shame that they don't have a good job, but as the article mentioned young people fresh out of college will always have a harder time getting a good job. I'd be willing to bet that as they get older their degree will be more valuable to them. |
How is that degree going to get more valuable? In fact it becomes virtually worthless after a few years of working some crap minimum wage job. Good jobs hire people with skills and experience. Academic qualifications are less important (although for good jobs they usually are still essential, but you're often looking more at a masters degree or better).
You don't need a degree to be a plumber. Or a carpenter. Or an inventor. Or to work for small business, developing a skill set that will enable you to start your own business someday. The problem is that everyone wants to be a lawyer, doctor, or corporate executive. Only some people can do that. But you can make a good, honest living doing nearly any kind of trade job or setting up a small business. The catch is that you need actual skills - this requires a long apprenticeship phase, but certainly does not require a college degree. |
How many people who go to a college would be willing to do low class work, regardless of how it paid, as a carpenter or a plumber? Not to mention how many job openings are there really for that kind of work, especially in this economy where good paying blue collar jobs are increasingly going overseas or being phased out. The one that I see a lot of people doing, at least in the unofficial sample of my friends on facebook, is turning to being a nurse when they can't find a job in their field. You mention apprenticeships, but how many of those are even offered in the States? I think community college is great, but this is besides the point of whether a BA/BS is worthless.
I would say that a major problem is companies wanting people to have degrees for things like being a receptionist or an office aid, but that's a different discussion. I've known many people, most people it seems like, who for the first year or two out of college don't find a good job, and do part time or minimum wage work before they are able to make a breakthrough somehow. Again, the numbers all show that for most people college is still a good investment, but they also show that there are many problems. Many of the problems aren't the faults of the colleges themselves, but some of course are. Experience is much more valuable than a degree, but in most professional fields you aren't going to get that experience with out a degree, and if you can even get in, you will be passed over for people with the degree when it comes time to move up in almost any organization. |
http://lh6.ggpht.com/-n8OVV5ysPtM/T8gZq2WqXhI/AAAAAAAAMDU/N_FV9UbKB40/cwjmo120531%25255B5%25255D.gif |
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