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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Who wants to make bets on how long this new ceasefire lasts? Egypt's role has been pleasantly surprising, Morsi (sp?) seems to be pragmatic when it's important. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: |
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http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/289-134/14657-4-common-myths-about-israel-and-gaza
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How did the (last) ceasefire unravel?"
President Barak Obama and the mainstream media in the United States and Israel place the blame squarely on Hamas. It is true that a barrage of Palestinian rockets have been fired into Israel, and that ending this rocket fire is the stated goal of the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. However, this simplistic summary leaves out crucial facts. Consider this chain of events, which followed a "lull" of sorts over the previous couple of weeks:
� Nov. 4: Israel killed a mentally ill Palestinian walking near the Israeli-imposed "no-go zone" inside the Gaza Strip - an event that triggered a rocket from Gaza into southern Israel, which did not cause any deaths or injuries.
Nov. 8: Four Israeli military tanks and a bulldozer entered Gaza, fatally shooting a 13-year-old boy who had been playing soccer by his family's house.
Nov. 10: In retaliation, two rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Israel, and an anti-tank missile injured four soldiers, when it hit an Israeli army jeep that had crossed over into the territory. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights reported the killing of five more Palestinians, four of whom were civilians � including two soccer players age 16 and 17 and two young men (18 and 19) who ran to the scene. Forty-nine others were wounded, including 10 children.
Nov. 11: Amid talks of a truce, six more Palestinians (all but one were civilians) were wounded and another was killed by both air strikes and troops on the ground.
Nov. 12: With Israeli air strikes continuing, two rockets from Gaza hit Israel.
Nov. 13: After two mid-afternoon air strikes, news services announced a truce had been agreed-upon.
Nov. 14: Israel ignored the nascent truce and assassinated Hamas military chief Ahmad al-Jabari. (It is questionable whether Israeli officials ever really wanted a truce. As Phyllis Bennis from the Institute for Policy Studies wrote in The Nation: "Earlier this year, on the third anniversary of the Gaza assault of 2008/9, Israeli Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz told Army Radio that Israel will need to attack Gaza again soon, to restore what he called its power of �deterrence.' He said the assault must be �swift and painful,' concluding, �we will act when the conditions are right.' Perhaps this was his chosen moment.")
A fact not known by most Americans, who see Jabari as merely a leader of "terrorists," is that Israeli activist Gershon Baskin confirmed that Jabari was engaged in peace settlement negotiations with Israel. In fact, he was due to send Hamas' version of a draft agreement to Baskin on the Wednesday evening before he was killed. It's worth asking: Did Israel intend to torpedo those efforts? |
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actionjackson
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Any place I'm at
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/289-134/14657-4-common-myths-about-israel-and-gaza
| Quote: |
How did the (last) ceasefire unravel?"
President Barak Obama and the mainstream media in the United States and Israel place the blame squarely on Hamas. It is true that a barrage of Palestinian rockets have been fired into Israel, and that ending this rocket fire is the stated goal of the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. However, this simplistic summary leaves out crucial facts. Consider this chain of events, which followed a "lull" of sorts over the previous couple of weeks:
� Nov. 4: Israel killed a mentally ill Palestinian walking near the Israeli-imposed "no-go zone" inside the Gaza Strip - an event that triggered a rocket from Gaza into southern Israel, which did not cause any deaths or injuries.
Nov. 8: Four Israeli military tanks and a bulldozer entered Gaza, fatally shooting a 13-year-old boy who had been playing soccer by his family's house.
Nov. 10: In retaliation, two rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Israel, and an anti-tank missile injured four soldiers, when it hit an Israeli army jeep that had crossed over into the territory. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights reported the killing of five more Palestinians, four of whom were civilians � including two soccer players age 16 and 17 and two young men (18 and 19) who ran to the scene. Forty-nine others were wounded, including 10 children.
Nov. 11: Amid talks of a truce, six more Palestinians (all but one were civilians) were wounded and another was killed by both air strikes and troops on the ground.
Nov. 12: With Israeli air strikes continuing, two rockets from Gaza hit Israel.
Nov. 13: After two mid-afternoon air strikes, news services announced a truce had been agreed-upon.
Nov. 14: Israel ignored the nascent truce and assassinated Hamas military chief Ahmad al-Jabari. (It is questionable whether Israeli officials ever really wanted a truce. As Phyllis Bennis from the Institute for Policy Studies wrote in The Nation: "Earlier this year, on the third anniversary of the Gaza assault of 2008/9, Israeli Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz told Army Radio that Israel will need to attack Gaza again soon, to restore what he called its power of �deterrence.' He said the assault must be �swift and painful,' concluding, �we will act when the conditions are right.' Perhaps this was his chosen moment.")
A fact not known by most Americans, who see Jabari as merely a leader of "terrorists," is that Israeli activist Gershon Baskin confirmed that Jabari was engaged in peace settlement negotiations with Israel. In fact, he was due to send Hamas' version of a draft agreement to Baskin on the Wednesday evening before he was killed. It's worth asking: Did Israel intend to torpedo those efforts? |
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I think certain posters might be skeptical of the bolded part so I've provided a few articles.
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Israeli peace activist: Hamas leader Jabari killed amid talks on long-term truce
Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit, says Israel made a mistake that will cost the lives of 'innocent people on both sides.'
Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. |
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085
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Israel killed its subcontractor in Gaza
Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza. This title will no doubt sound absurd to anyone who in the past several hours has heard Jabari described as "an arch-terrorist," "the terror chief of staff" or "our Bin Laden."
But that was the reality for the past five and a half years. Israel demanded of Hamas that it observe the truce in the south and enforce it on the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. The man responsible for carrying out this policy was Ahmed Jabari. |
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886?block=true |
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Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Thank god the people of Gaza have a respite from Israeli terror attacks and the unrelenting bombing campaign. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Syria death toll tops 30,000, human rights group says
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The death toll in Syria�s 18-month civil war has broken the 30,000 barrier, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said today, and the casualty rate shows no signs of abating |
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/syria/120926/syria-death-toll-30000-syrian-observatory-human-rights
Anway according to some posters :
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In Syria, the administration is providing support and weapons to al-Qaeda and their sympathizers. Foreign fighters are streaming into Syria. The rebels are massacring Christians and other minorities, killing civilians, and perpetrating gross war crimes. We are supporting jihadists, just like in Kosov |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2832184&highlight=#2832184
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Syrian rebels are massacring Christians and using terrorists bombings. It will end up like Libya. The Western media says the whole population is against the regime, yet over a year after the murder and rape of Gadaffi the government is still fighting people loyal to him. |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?p=2835951&highlight=#2835951
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HAMAS takes care to avoid civilian casualties. They target military bases and installations, not civilians. When there is a risk of hurting civilians, they call off the rocket strike. Unfortunately, sometimes there is collateral damage, because the IDF hides in apartments, synagogues, and hospitals to use innocents as human shields. Unfortunately, due to the actions of the terrorist government of Likud, the Israeli people are at the mercy of HAMAS rockets. It is unfortunate, but Israel bears the moral burden for this latest terror attack on Palestinian civilians. |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=224316&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
Syrian rebels bad
Libyan rebels bad
Hamas = freedom fighters
Hezbollah = freedom fighters
Gaddafi good
Libyan rebels bad
Israel = The greatest evil in the world.
Syria's government good
Sudan's government good
Iran's government good
All makes perfect sense doesn't it?
Not going to discuss motives right now,but it would not be too difficult to guess what they are. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Israel is NOT occupying Gaza it is BLOCKADING Gaza. |
The Israeli government can call it whatever it likes, the U.N. still considers it to be occupation, as I wrote above. No amount of quotes from Israeli government officials is going to change that.
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The U.N can call it what it likes. Pop quiz. How many Muslim/Arab states are there at the U.N? And how many Jewish states?
That's why the U.N claims occupation. Too bad the facts don't fit it.
There is no occupation in Gaza of buildings or territory by Israel. There is no continued military presence in Gazan territory.
Perhaps the U.N should read up on the definition of "occupied" instead of making up their own. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
All makes perfect sense doesn't it?
Not going to discuss motives right now,but it would not be too difficult to guess what they are. |
Remember where "Soviets bad, al-Qaeda good" got us?
Some of us would like to avoid that position in the future. We should stop giving financial/material support to either side in these small regional conflicts on the other side of the world. The U.S. would be a lot better off.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| That's why the U.N claims occupation. Too bad the facts don't fit it. |
Because locking down the borders of a sovereign territory with military force is actually a public service that the native population should appreciate, right? Using force to restrict the movement and imports of a population against their will is occupation, which is why you'll only find pro-Israel groups saying it isn't. And even if we say it isn't "occupation", it's still morally reprehensible oppression of the civilian population which requires a permanent and just solution. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| That's why the U.N claims occupation. Too bad the facts don't fit it. |
Because locking down the borders of a sovereign territory with military force is actually a public service that the native population should appreciate, right? Using force to restrict the movement and imports of a population against their will is occupation, which is why you'll only find pro-Israel groups saying it isn't. . |
I never said or implied it was a public service. Any reason you are attempting to mislead the conversation?
Using force to restrict the movement and imports of a population fits the definition of "blockade" much better than "occupation". Webster's is free online you can check it for yourself and see.
Once again the facts don't fit. Israel withdrew from Gaza years ago. It continues to blockade Gaza in an attempt to restrict the flow of materials Hamas and other militant groups use for their rockets. But they are not occupying Gaza in any real sense of the word. It's propaganda produced for the consumption of what the Soviet leader Lenin used to call "useful fools".
As far as oppression of the populace I can agree with you. Unfortunately until Hamas and the other groups agree to a permanent cease-fire there's not much Israel can do. No other state in the world would agree to take terrorist groups (which don't recognize it) into their territory. It would be like America allowing AQ groups immigrat | | |
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