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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| crashlanding wrote: |
As one of the few people on Earth who has taught English in Finland and South Korea after studying English in the United States and the U.K., I have to say that I'm fascinated to see a conversation about how English is taught in both countries.
I also must say that I'm quite puzzled as to why no one has asked to talk to me about this, despite my rather unique experience. Phillipson, on the other hand, has never taught in either of the two. |
Oh yeah, actually please let us know. I looked into Finland and it seems like maybe it's a matter of smaller population, smaller student to teacher ratio, and a geographic location that doesn't put it on the brink of war. I am interested in how good their english level actually is though, I don't like the word "competent" as a measure of how proficient someone is in a language.
And the girls, how do the girls in Finland compare.... |
All of my Swedish friends said their superb English skills have a lot to do with how Sweden rarely uses dubbing, preferring subtitles and the original English. The quality of English education is so good, that Swedes are able to listen to the English, while at the same time understand what's being said (by reading the subtitles).
Even in countries that have subtitles (like Japan) the quality of English education (IMO) is not as great, and so people rely a lot more on simply reading instead of reading and understanding (hearing, recognizing) the English being spoken.
Obviously it's a random theory and maybe isn't true, but I thought it was interesting, and might be similar to Finland.
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| crashlanding wrote: |
As one of the few people on Earth who has taught English in Finland and South Korea after studying English in the United States and the U.K., I have to say that I'm fascinated to see a conversation about how English is taught in both countries.
I also must say that I'm quite puzzled as to why no one has asked to talk to me about this, despite my rather unique experience. Phillipson, on the other hand, has never taught in either of the two. |
Oh yeah, actually please let us know. I looked into Finland and it seems like maybe it's a matter of smaller population, smaller student to teacher ratio, and a geographic location that doesn't put it on the brink of war. I am interested in how good their english level actually is though, I don't like the word "competent" as a measure of how proficient someone is in a language.
And the girls, how do the girls in Finland compare.... |
All of my Swedish friends said their superb English skills have a lot to do with how Sweden rarely uses dubbing, preferring subtitles and the original English. The quality of English education is so good, that Swedes are able to listen to the English, while at the same time understand what's being said (by reading the subtitles).
Even in countries that have subtitles (like Japan) the quality of English education (IMO) is not as great, and so people rely a lot more on simply reading instead of reading and understanding (hearing, recognizing) the English being spoken.
Obviously it's a random theory and maybe isn't true, but I thought it was interesting, and might be similar to Finland.
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crashlanding
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Oh yeah, actually please let us know. I looked into Finland and it seems like maybe it's a matter of smaller population, smaller student to teacher ratio, and a geographic location that doesn't put it on the brink of war. I am interested in how good their english level actually is though, I don't like the word "competent" as a measure of how proficient someone is in a language. |
I can best answer this question with an anecdote. In the early 2000's when one of the Harry Potter books just came out, bookstores throughout Finland were selling out of English dictionaries. Why? Because children were buying up the dictionaries to read along with the English version of the novel (which naturally came out several months before a Finnish translation could be made and printed). They couldn't wait and didn't want to wait for the Finnish version.
Compare that to student enthusiasm--or lack thereof--in South Korea, where learning English has been made a chore by a factory-style education system.
South Korea's school system, as well as its university system, is substandard because of South Korea's obsession with improving its school system. This is a paradox Americans in the post-NCLB era should think long and hard about.
Sadly, no one will listen to me on this point. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| crashlanding wrote: |
I can best answer this question with an anecdote. In the early 2000's when one of the Harry Potter books just came out, bookstores throughout Finland were selling out of English dictionaries. Why? Because children were buying up the dictionaries to read along with the English version of the novel (which naturally came out several months before a Finnish translation could be made and printed). They couldn't wait and didn't want to wait for the Finnish version.
Compare that to student enthusiasm--or lack thereof--in South Korea, where learning English has been made a chore by a factory-style education system.
South Korea's school system, as well as its university system, is substandard because of South Korea's obsession with improving its school system. This is a paradox Americans in the post-NCLB era should think long and hard about.
Sadly, no one will listen to me on this point. |
i did. I think a BIG BIG thing is that Koreans are so worried about being the same and doing the "right" thing, they never foster true curiosity that leads to movement. Theyre curious superficially or in ways so they can confirm their Koreanness, but as someone who been with Koreans all of his life, and 13 years here, as well as being a super curious and artistic person (youll have to trust me), I find it 100% uninspiring. I dont think its just their education system, its the Confucianism that makes people feel the "proper" way as well as their influence from Chinese and Japanese nieghbors being here uninvited for centuries. I dont even really even rate artists here. Its all from that mindset. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
| crashlanding wrote: |
I can best answer this question with an anecdote. In the early 2000's when one of the Harry Potter books just came out, bookstores throughout Finland were selling out of English dictionaries. Why? Because children were buying up the dictionaries to read along with the English version of the novel (which naturally came out several months before a Finnish translation could be made and printed). They couldn't wait and didn't want to wait for the Finnish version.
Compare that to student enthusiasm--or lack thereof--in South Korea, where learning English has been made a chore by a factory-style education system.
South Korea's school system, as well as its university system, is substandard because of South Korea's obsession with improving its school system. This is a paradox Americans in the post-NCLB era should think long and hard about.
Sadly, no one will listen to me on this point. |
i did. I think a BIG BIG thing is that Koreans are so worried about being the same and doing the "right" thing, they never foster true curiosity that leads to movement. Theyre curious superficially or in ways so they can confirm their Koreanness, but as someone who been with Koreans all of his life, and 13 years here, as well as being a super curious and artistic person (youll have to trust me), I find it 100% uninspiring. I dont think its just their education system, its the Confucianism that makes people feel the "proper" way as well as their influence from Chinese and Japanese nieghbors being here uninvited for centuries. I dont even really even rate artists here. Its all from that mindset. |
You can thank Joseon's yangban elite for that, who by the way simply became collaborators with successive powers to the present day. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
| crashlanding wrote: |
I can best answer this question with an anecdote. In the early 2000's when one of the Harry Potter books just came out, bookstores throughout Finland were selling out of English dictionaries. Why? Because children were buying up the dictionaries to read along with the English version of the novel (which naturally came out several months before a Finnish translation could be made and printed). They couldn't wait and didn't want to wait for the Finnish version.
Compare that to student enthusiasm--or lack thereof--in South Korea, where learning English has been made a chore by a factory-style education system.
South Korea's school system, as well as its university system, is substandard because of South Korea's obsession with improving its school system. This is a paradox Americans in the post-NCLB era should think long and hard about.
Sadly, no one will listen to me on this point. |
i did. I think a BIG BIG thing is that Koreans are so worried about being the same and doing the "right" thing, they never foster true curiosity that leads to movement. Theyre curious superficially or in ways so they can confirm their Koreanness, but as someone who been with Koreans all of his life, and 13 years here, as well as being a super curious and artistic person (youll have to trust me), I find it 100% uninspiring. I dont think its just their education system, its the Confucianism that makes people feel the "proper" way as well as their influence from Chinese and Japanese nieghbors being here uninvited for centuries. I dont even really even rate artists here. Its all from that mindset. |
You can thank Joseon's yangban elite for that, who by the way simply became collaborators with successive powers to the present day. |
well, one more big point to compare it to western thought is the western (American?) concpt of sticking to your guns, be a man, do what you say. It creates movement and defines a person by giving them a direction. In Korea, theyre not taught anything like that, which leads then to just follow whoever in the circle has the power. The yangban are glamourized a bit but they seemed to be not so educated. Remember, students also copied the texts of their teachers before, so that doesnt lead to much independant thought either.
the cronyism is still the norm. the opposite side is the lack of a social morality alot seem to have. that lack of individual morality and a group morality, combined with a superficial nationalism which truely has little to do with Korea or themselves, just another group to be in, to gain some kind of power. Ive always said alot of the locals seem to like to say "Korea" more than know what is Korea. Oh well....
Ive never made a thing about Koreans and the way they want to study. I know that its no way I would ever learn. BUT I also make no beans about. I teach them to study their books and repeat after me. I hope they learn from my example. I know they think Im kind and interested in them. I have a great life and they get what they want. Thank god for that.
It is amazing that still in 2012 they can be so inward-looking, even compared to the 90s, the girls are leaps and bounds ahead of the guys. I know, they want to be this and that, but they havent progressed that inwardly imho. They dress like Tokyoites, eat tacos and lattes, etc, but still...Just goes to show, doesnt matter that you have, its what you are. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Well qualified local teachers and under-qualified foreig |
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| crashlanding wrote: |
"Antagonism between well qualified local teachers and under-qualified foreigners" is one of the "Results of importing young native speakers in China, Japan, Korea" that will be highlighted by an internationally recognized British scholar who has been paid to give a conference talk in Seoul later this year.
I've thankfully left South Korea and will never go back, but an email jumped into my inbox about Robert Phillipson, who has written books about "language imperialism" and who has been invited to speak about English language teaching. Phillipson is a professor at the Copenhagen School of Business and he has worked for decades fighting the tide of native speaker teachers and promoting instead local, non-native speakers teaching English because of their superior confidence.
Phillipson was kind enough to email me the Powerpoint for his presentation. The quotes above are from slide 36. Here are other quotes from that slide:
"Proof of the incompetence of local decision-makers who are responsible for such policies"
"Proof of the opportunism, economic and political of organizations in the UK, Australia, USA, Canada supplying models of an Anglo-American way of life rather than appropriately qualified teachers."
Again, as I've said I've left South Korea (and I wasn't really an EFL teacher per se, so this isn't really an issue for me), but my heart really does go out to all of you guys who are struggling in that filthy, angry place. I wanted all of you to know what's going on.
I'm not well versed in Korea politics, but I've been told Phillipson is being used as a pawn by certain political groups to give international credence to the growing anti-English movement in the upper echelons of Korean society, and his presentation will probably be used to cut budgets to hire native speakers in public schools and encourage Korean universities to abandon English-language instruction.
I imagine the lower middle class of South Korea will suffer the most from this. For them, linguistic talent and the drive to learn English are collectively one of the few socioeconomic equalizers in a deeply unfair and hierarchical society.
I have a copy of his speech and Powerpoint presentation if anyone's interested. Just PM me. |
Having qualification and the ability to actually speak English are two different things. The reason we have been imported is because we speak English and the Koreans could not. Their ability to communicate and use grammar (ie. sending emails, business communications, etc) were terrible. While, they are getting better and there are many who have near fluency, there are still many who are terrible at English and mix up their words. We are still needed for the kids and the teachers to get use to fluent English whether people like it or not. It has nothing to do with imperialism but about Koreans having the strongest grasp of English that makes it the best exporter amongst Asian countries in the future and becomes it's own imperial master. As far as bringing in "foriegn influences", talk to the numerous families that send their kids abroad to study English. The culture is changing. But, ours is different from 50 years ago too.
Basically, the 1980's generation is coming into power and they hate us and want to blame us "foriegners" for all of their problems. This is just another excuse.
There are many countries that have some varying use of English. Some are great at it and some are terrible. Just look at the Japanese who want to keep foriegners at arms length and live through translators. Look at how the Koreans have leaped over the Japanese in both English ability and economic growth. This is because many of the powers that be here in Korea had ignored these xenophobic voices.
Let me also add, that in regards to Korean English and Conversation teachers, that the kids view them in the Confucian hierarchy and as Korean. This means that outside of class, the kids speak to them in Korean. But they also rarely speak to them because of that Confucian intimidation factor that younger feel for older. Also, most Koreans still are not always teaching English in English. With us, kids are less afraid to approach us and usually want to come over and talk to us practicing English during breaks and lunch time. We also use English in the classroom. These are some of the benefits of having "Native Speakers" in the classroom. If the Koreans provide no joint curriculum to teach from, then whose fault is it? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
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well, one more big point to compare it to western thought is the western (American?) concpt of sticking to your guns, be a man, do what you say. It creates movement and defines a person by giving them a direction. In Korea, theyre not taught anything like that, which leads then to just follow whoever in the circle has the power. . |
You mean Western concepts like "Keeping up with the Jones?" and being part of the "in" crowd?
Don't kid yourself fella...there's precious little individual acting going back on home either. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Unibrow wrote: |
| The spread of English has been a product of Anglo American imperialism, it's hard to dispute that. |
It's such a shame that South Korea embraced that Anglo American imperialism. I imagine it is this imperialism that has played a major role in the famines they have suffered as well as the numerous refugees that are desperate to escape to China for a better life. From what I understand a lot of South Korean refugee women are sold as wives to Chinese men over the internet. At least North Korea was wise enough to reject the evil western influence. Hopefully this kindhearted white man can talk some sense into the indigenous peoples of South Korea. It makes me proud to be a westerner when someone like this offers his insight to a population that can't be trusted to determine it's own fate. His resume and degrees are also very impressive, unlike the filthy native speakers that come here with their worthless bachelor degrees they received from the now debunked American university system. |
Really? Which country is actually startving today? Looking at all the chubby kids and career women walking down Tehran-No, I'd say it's apparent. One country got rich by trading with the evil west and another got poorer by avoiding the evil west thereby sending it's women to China to do whatever it takes to eat. This "white man" is a tool. But enjoy your delusions, sir....
PS. Don't you think when some of these young Americans go home, they're going to have a bad impression of your country if you keep spouting off xenophobic garbage at them? America will roar back economically stronger than before; it's just a matter of time. Have a nice day over there at Anti-English Spectrum good sir.... |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| America will roar back economically stronger than before; it's just a matter of time. |
I really hope so! |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
[
well, one more big point to compare it to western thought is the western (American?) concpt of sticking to your guns, be a man, do what you say. It creates movement and defines a person by giving them a direction. In Korea, theyre not taught anything like that, which leads then to just follow whoever in the circle has the power. . |
You mean Western concepts like "Keeping up with the Jones?" and being part of the "in" crowd?
Don't kid yourself fella...there's precious little individual acting going back on home either. |
I think it is more prevalent in Korea though. Went curtain shopping with the wife, and all the guy selling the curtains could talk about was how "Koreans prefer this, Koreans don't like that etc." |
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