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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| fosterman wrote: |
here is how it will play out.
nothing will change. nothing with happen. this news story will blow over
as the next story comes out and the media move on.
then next year or 2 years later will want to be number 1
the korean virgina tec shooter still holds that record
lanza is now in number2.
someone will want to take the lead, so we will see more mass killings
and then the media , the liberals vs conservatives will argue again
nothing will happen again.
more killings, more children murdered and again, nothing will happen.
god bless the United states of America! wiiiinnniinngggg!!
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For once I agree with fosterman. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, people in this world like Visitorq exist and engaging them in a debate about the issue is probably counterproductive. I really hope this will be a turning point. President Obama has voiced strong support for gun control before and now he doesn't have to worry about reelection. Some things to think about are:
1) Close the loopholes that make it easy for people who can not pass a background check to buy a gun. Canada could be a model. In Canada, you have to pass an extensive background check in order to obtain a license to purchase firearms. The license must be renewed every five years.
2) Implement better enforcement of existing gun control laws. The gun lobby has done a lot to shield gun traffickers from any consequences.
3) Make people criminally liable for letting their mentally disturbed children have easy access to their guns. If you own a gun you'd better be responsible.
4) Ban the more dangerous types of firearms or the more dangerous features of such weapons like large capacity magazines. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Something like 2% of those killed are "terrorists". Usually the drone just goes in and blows up a whole village of innocent families that were just minding their own business. In fact, the only "terrorism" going on is the US military wantonly murdering and terrorizing the civilians in those areas. No crocodile tears for those children... |
I don't know whether Obama shed real tears or not - to me he always looks fed up more than anything else - but it is sadly all too possible for people to have no compunction about massacring a remote 'enemy' at the same time as genuinely caring for their own. Regardless, I'm glad you brought it up because these drone attacks ought to be publicly discussed and condemned as often as possible - if anyone in government is listening and actually cares about principles or about representing the people, that is.
Steelrails suggested locking up the mentally ill. I would suggest institutionalizing them for as long as they need treatment and supervision, rather than turning them loose with a prescription and a faint hope that they'll stick to it. This requires public spending.
I tend to agree that stricter gun control laws are not going to fix this problem. In a country as vast as the United States, already saturated with guns, removing all illegal firearms would be a mammoth undertaking, so it is quite likely impracticable to deny potential killers access to guns. A better way would be to work toward a more stable and healthy society, one in which the mentally ill are treated and which produces more well-adjusted individuals and fewer sociopaths. One step toward this would be to reduce the working week, allowing parents more time to devote to their children, who would then spend less time under the meaningless barrage of mass media from their televisions, PCs, and consoles. Another step would be to make a more serious effort to give career guidance and training to teenagers. This latter would not only lead to young adults feeling more valued and being more productive, but would also mean troubled individuals could be identified. The phenomenon of the male who runs amok occurs in all societies, but evidently more in some than in others - more in U.S. society now than in the past. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| In a country as vast as the United States, already saturated with guns, removing all illegal firearms would be a mammoth undertaking |
Check out the stats on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
There's pretty much a gun for everybody in the U.S. No wonder Koreans think that everybody owns a gun in the U.S.; it's because we do!
Forget about gun control. Ain't happening, so we better start thinking of something else. We are on the cusp of printing our own guns at home with no one the wiser!
http://www.businessinsider.com/it-is-now-possible-to-download-and-3d-print-a-working-ar-15-assault-rifle-2012-8
Hell, people have been attending AR-15 build parties for years now, where you can get the necessary parts from a CNC machine quickly, cheaply and quietly (i.e. no background checks, no wait time, no registration, no serial numbers). |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Obama visibly upset and shed some tears. |
Crocodile tears. Totally fake and obviously so. This is a man who regularly orders drone attacks on civilians, including children. And we're supposed to believe he's now "saddened" by the deaths of those people at the school? Politicians like him are absolutely ruthless and care nothing about regular people. To them this tragedy is just an opportunity to further their own agendas. One of the things on Obama's agenda is to "ban assault rifles" (i.e. set a precedent for incrementally taking down the 2nd Amendment altogether). Anyone who buys into his little performance is being duped.
As for my own reaction to the news: the first thing was to feel it was a senseless tragedy. The second thing what an absolute shame it was that somebody else wasn't armed except for the killer. He got to go in there and massacre so many helpless, disarmed people. Somebody should have been there to shoot back at him. It's a damn shame really. |
Wow. Sounds very callous. The man is a father as well. I got glassy eyed when I heard about it and not ashamed to say it.
You may not like the man, with good reason, but to suggest faking compassion for something so obviously horrific? Callous. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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America has to change its cultural view of gun ownership. Its the only way it will change.
Too many people want guns. That's the jist of it all. The government and others are good at changing America culturally. We have changed the way we culturally look at gays, women, minorities, the physically impaired, a whole host of people.
It will take a long time. In the meanwhile, enact gun laws that even the majority of gun owners agree on. The NRA opposes gun laws that even its own members think is okay as well as non NRA gun owners.
Start there. Work on taking away the power of the NRA. They are like the fundamental right and abortion. They see any laws that limits anything on guns as inviolate. Next work on the gun manufacturers.
Put those groups on the defensive.
PS: plenty of liberals own guns too visitorg. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
In the meanwhile, enact gun laws that even the majority of gun owners agree on. The NRA opposes gun laws that even its own members think is okay as well as non NRA gun owners.
Start there. Work on taking away the power of the NRA. They are like the fundamental right and abortion. They see any laws that limits anything on guns as inviolate. |
This is an excellent and accurate point. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
Wow. Sounds very callous. The man is a father as well. I got glassy eyed when I heard about it and not ashamed to say it.
You may not like the man, with good reason, but to suggest faking compassion for something so obviously horrific? Callous. |
Callous my ass. Obama can go to hell. You people just love making him out to be a victim on any issue. It's absolutely disgusting. I've never ordered drone attacks. I don't have the blood of children on my hands. So you can take your "callous" remarks and stick it... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
America has to change its cultural view of gun ownership. Its the only way it will change.
Too many people want guns. That's the jist of it all. The government and others are good at changing America culturally. We have changed the way we culturally look at gays, women, minorities, the physically impaired, a whole host of people. |
Guns have been the in the US for hundreds of years. These school massacres are a relatively new phenomenon. It has to do much more with our sick, twisted society being the most heavily medicated in the world, and frankly just having more spaced out, crazy people than anywhere else (although Europe is about the same). How many of these shooters were hopped up on SSRI's?
The reason I'm so adamant about this is issue is that I see our society sliding even more off the deep end. Our government is more corrupt and wicked than ever (literally run like a mafia). When civilization is on the decline we need access to means to defend ourselves from the crazies and the criminals.
All the authoritarian liberal chicken-necks think the government is going to protect them, but they are absolutely out to lunch. The police are useless at best (they sure as hell didn't save any of those kids) and corrupt and mafia-esque at worst. We need a strong dose of reality, not more Kony2012 ninnies prancing around telling us how trendy and liberal it is to be disarmed and helpless. That's why I'm done skirting around this issue - I'm calling it as it really is. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| In a country as vast as the United States, already saturated with guns, removing all illegal firearms would be a mammoth undertaking |
Check out the stats on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
There's pretty much a gun for everybody in the U.S. No wonder Koreans think that everybody owns a gun in the U.S.; it's because we do!
Forget about gun control. Ain't happening, so we better start thinking of something else. We are on the cusp of printing our own guns at home with no one the wiser!
http://www.businessinsider.com/it-is-now-possible-to-download-and-3d-print-a-working-ar-15-assault-rifle-2012-8
Hell, people have been attending AR-15 build parties for years now, where you can get the necessary parts from a CNC machine quickly, cheaply and quietly (i.e. no background checks, no wait time, no registration, no serial numbers). |
Very good post.
Gun-grabbing shills like ghostrider will be flailing in the wind on this issue forever. If laws get passed making it harder for law abiding citizens to legally own the guns they want, then they will just do so illegally. There are countless millions of guns available, if it has to get driven into the black market, then so be it. I will never, ever give up my firearms just because some authoritarian chicken necks tells me to. If they want to try and throw me and millions of other law-abiding people into prison (just like they've done with the drug war, including non-violent people who just want possess a few grams of marijuana and mind their own business) they're going to have a long, bloody fight on their hands. These people will not make the country a safer place, they will make it far, far worse off than it already is. They are liberal in name only. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| madoka wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| In a country as vast as the United States, already saturated with guns, removing all illegal firearms would be a mammoth undertaking |
Check out the stats on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
There's pretty much a gun for everybody in the U.S. No wonder Koreans think that everybody owns a gun in the U.S.; it's because we do!
Forget about gun control. Ain't happening, so we better start thinking of something else. We are on the cusp of printing our own guns at home with no one the wiser!
http://www.businessinsider.com/it-is-now-possible-to-download-and-3d-print-a-working-ar-15-assault-rifle-2012-8
Hell, people have been attending AR-15 build parties for years now, where you can get the necessary parts from a CNC machine quickly, cheaply and quietly (i.e. no background checks, no wait time, no registration, no serial numbers). |
Very good post.
Gun-grabbing shills like ghostrider will be flailing in the wind on this issue forever. If laws get passed making it harder for law abiding citizens to legally own the guns they want, then they will just do so illegally. There are countless millions of guns available, if it has to get driven into the black market, then so be it. I will never, ever give up my firearms just because some authoritarian chicken necks tells me to. If they want to try and throw me and millions of other law-abiding people into prison (just like they've done with the drug war, including non-violent people who just want possess a few grams of marijuana and mind their own business) they're going to have a long, bloody fight on their hands. These people will not make the country a safer place, they will make it far, far worse off than it already is. They are liberal in name only. |
You fall back on the same, old, unfounded arguments. You can not come up with a single example to support your claims. There is no precedent for claiming that gun control will turn out like the war on drugs. What happened after New York City quadrupled its number of police officers on the street and began aggressively stopping and frisking suspicious people for illegal weapons? New York City experienced a big drop in crime and is now a much safer city to live in.
"Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide."
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html
That is the pattern we keep seeing again and again: more guns= more homicides. One pattern we're not seeing is gun control turning out like the war on drugs. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| You fall back on the same, old, unfounded arguments. You can not come up with a single example to support your claims. There is no precedent for claiming that gun control will turn out like the war on drugs. What happened after New York City quadrupled its number of police officers on the street and began aggressively stopping and frisking suspicious people for illegal weapons? New York City experienced a big drop in crime and is now a much safer city to live in. |
You are the most inept debater ever. Because everything you post is pack of lies. All of your propaganda is easily debunked:
| Quote: |
| Despite all the talk of declining crime and increased numbers of stop-and-frisks, are the two connected? The short answer is no! All of the graphs in today�s post make it clear that the astronomical increase in stop-and-frisks came well after the significant decrease in number of murders, and thus cannot be the cause of the drop. |
http://www.forbes.com/sites/naomirobbins/2012/03/23/visualizing-stop-and-frisk-and-murder-rates-in-new-york-city/
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| Mayor Bloomberg has publicly admitted that the use of stop, question and frisk has no correlation with the murder rate, and under direct questioning his personal counsel could not confirm the nature of its relationship with the decrease in homicides. The connection to gun violence is also tenuous at best, considering the historical rise under this administration of stop, question and frisks along with the relatively unchanged number of shootings; this causal link is further weakened by the news that as stop, question and frisks have declined this year, the number of New Yorkers being shot has went down rather than up. |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/15/nypd-stop-and-frisks-homicide_n_2136810.html
But I know an authoritarian like yourself probably gets off on the notion of the US turning into a police state, with gestapo thugs setting up check points and frisking innocent people as if they're all potential criminals. Sounds like your ideal society. |
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saram_
Joined: 13 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:41 am Post subject: |
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http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/
This article is certainly worth a look.
A different way of looking at what has happened here.
People who are having mental health issues in the States need more help!
The below excerpt is interesting.
Unfortunately guns cannot be taken out of society, but much more is needed when dealing with individuals who need assistance!
According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| saram_ wrote: |
http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/
This article is certainly worth a look.
A different way of looking at what has happened here.
People who are having mental health issues in the States need more help!
The below excerpt is interesting.
Unfortunately guns cannot be taken out of society, but much more is needed when dealing with individuals who need assistance!
According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do. |
From that article:
| Quote: |
When I asked my son�s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. �If he�s back in the system, they�ll create a paper trail,� he said. �That�s the only way you�re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you�ve got charges.�
I don�t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael�s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn�t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise�in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.
With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill�Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation�s largest treatment centers in 2011. |
So get your child convicted of a crime and the state will provide some kind of treatment in a prison. Hopefully, Obamacare will make other options more affordable, but please don't leave your AR-15 assault rifle lying around if you have a dangerously mentally ill child. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:51 am Post subject: |
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I am a gun owner. I have a license to carry in my state. I do carry (much of the time), when home. Here's what I've come to feel about all of this:
1. I want nation-wide permits. I want a nation-wide system -- ONE system -- for everyone. Washington D.C. and Illinois/Chicago can stuff it. They're the only hold-outs left, and they're losing in the courts, anyway. We have a patchwork of laws around the USA that is just not working.
2. I want requirements on handguns to be slightly more strict, with a REAL background check that includes a centralized database.
I want ownership requirements to include classes (I took a 3 day course with the police). I want these courses to include shooting. My state requires just an internet course, and that's a joke, IMHO.
If you are on any sort of medication, you need a doctor's clearance, and it needs to be restrictive. I also want there to be oversight, because some liberal groups purposefully make ludicrous restrictions in order to attempt to keep anyone from owning a gun. (Google "Shelly Parker Annie get your gun") for more about this, and why liberals pulling crap like this is why the NRA is so much against restrictions.
http://womensissues.about.com/b/2008/06/26/annie-get-your-gun-supreme-court-overturns-dc-handgun-ban.htm
3. I want a gun list of approved guns for carry. I don't mind limiting that to 10 round or less weapons WITH safeties.
I don't mind limiting capacities to 10. The problem is that you can stick a 33-round magazine in a sub-compact Glock 26 and turn a 10-round compact gun into a 33-round one. (Side-note, many of these mags are made in Korea... bet you didn't know that one).
4. I don't want weapons allowed that do not have an external safety. The Glocks DO NOT have an actual physical external safety, and despite the fact that they are some of the best guns out there, they are responsible for a very large number of negligent discharges. Glock has suckered people into the "safety is your brain and your trigger finger" crap, along with listing several "internal safeties" which are really nothing other than internal parts that keep the thing from going off if you drop it.
I carry a Ruger LC9 in 9mm, or a S&W 1911 SC Commander in .45 Cal. Both are about 8 to 9 rounds capacity, with supplied magazines.
Ruger LC9: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XNBQIpYpYBI/TTW9lPk3fTI/AAAAAAAAAPs/zOb2oPGf2Rw/s1600/Ruger+LC9+%252807%2529.jpg
S&W 1911SC: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7094/7206139800_7fa67c7100_z.jpg
The S&W is kind of big, and not something comfortable to carry. I spent over $200 on a full system for carry from Milt Sparks (belt/holster) that secures it well, and is safe. I don't skimp on quality. Stupid friggin' idiots who carry Glocks "mexican-style" in their pants, with no holster, shouldn't be allowed to carry at all if they're that dumb.
The LC9 disappears in my front dockers shorts pocket in a small holster, and is literally one of the safest guns you can carry. It has a heavy trigger pull, an external safety, is hammer-fired (isn't going to go off if you drop it). I never carry this without a holster (I won't carry any gun without a holster).
I also LOVE revolvers, and will be getting one in the near future. Revolvers usually carry 5 to 6 rounds.
5. I have never owned an "assault weapon." To tell you the truth, though, it's just a media phrase that sells newspapers. Other than a few fancy do-dads that make the gun look more scary, they're no different than other semi-autos. The gun that was used in the recent shootings was a .223 Bushmaster. This is, essentially, the same gun that the military carries (but they carry it in the 5.56mm NATO round -- virtually identical, and the better AR's will chamber and shoot both).
Personally, I don't feel the argument for assault rifles is holding-out too well. Banning them outright will NEVER work, because there are hundreds of thousands out there. Those of you non-Americans who think the US should just ban them and the police confiscate them have no freaking clue what you're talking about. I PROMISE you, this would be tantamount to a trigger for a civil war in the USA. Don't even think of going there. If you think this is even remotely possible, you are totally misinformed.
A good idea, however, would be to stop all sales of certain semi-auto guns, followed by an immediate ban on magazines on capacities over 5. Included must be a magazine buy-back program paying people $25 per magazine. This will get many off of the streets, and people who still keep them will hoard them like gold. Make them a felony to own. That's fine. Don't mind that at all.
If they want to stop the sale of semi-auto rifles in certain calibers, and limiting them to a capacity of 5, for example, then that's the way they need to go. This will drive the costs up on legacy weapons to the point where people will lock them up and not use them. This has been demonstrated to happen in the past.
Those of you who know nothing about guns and AR's is that the newer guns are so light, so mobile, and fire with so little recoil that a kid can use them (they weigh under 6 pounds). Even still, you can see how lethal they are. The .223/5.56 round is cheap, plentiful, and as mentioned, there is little recoil. Bigger/heavier guns, like the AK-47 and .308 are just not as mobile and easy to carry around. Go ahead and ban high-capacity mags and severely restrict who can buy the guns -- no issues there. But it's the .223/5.56 guns that are making it easy for Johnny crazy-boy to carry an assault rifle anywhere and shoot-up a school. Here is a 7 year-old kid firing essentially the SAME gun used in the recent shoot-out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N07enhvt1qg
There are even newer/more lethal calibers out there, which can be chambered in the same guns. The 6.8 SPC/SPC II is much more powerful than the .223/5.56, yet recoils barely much more. The .300 Whisper/.300 Blackout is another like it.
6. Lastly, I would like to see arming at least 2 or 3 teachers or administrators per school. Armed individuals are kept at schools in the Philippines, Peru, and Israel, for example. I would like training to be yearly, and bi-annual shooting practice a requirement. Wouldn't be a bad idea for them to carry a small taser, as well. This gives them a non-lethal option.
7. Get rid of "gun-free zones," other than certain government offices. They are proving to be nothing more than mass-shooting magnets. Schools can remain gun-free, as far as the public is concerned, but with the caveat that certain staff members (or armed guards) have them.
8. Buying and carrying a handgun should be made part of a system -- legally -- that requires the proper holster for safety, and a storage safe that passes certain regulations (yet is not restrictively expensive). If the gun is not on your person, or being taken apart for cleaning/care, then you keep the thing in your safe.
I could go on, but I am out of time for now. I am open to any questions.
Last edited by Swampfox10mm on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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