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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| I get the old-fashioned gun collectors (and not surprised bluelake is one hehehe) |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| I don't know where you get your figures. 323 people killed by rifles in the US every year? That's probably just hunting accidents. Multiply that by 30 and you'll be closer to the real number of people who get killed by firearms in the US every year. |
Unlike your random out of your ass guessing, he got his number from the NY Times which was quoting the FBI's Uniform Crime report. And it's not hunting accidents; it's homicides:
"rifles of any type account for only a fraction of homicides in the United States � of 12,664 murder victims last year, 323 were killed with rifles" |
Purposely ignoring the rest of the figures related to firearms and the point that I made about your Second Amendment, eh?
Handguns 6,220
Unknown 1,684
Rifles 323
Shotguns 356
Yeah, whatever. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Regarding the Second Amendment, it expresses its purpose very clearly, and the radically-individualistic interpretation of the Second Amendment that many people like to throw up today is actually a perversion of the Amendment in question. Here is what Joseph Story, who served on the Supreme Court in the 1800s, had to say about it:
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| The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights. |
The Second Amendment was never about died by bear and Madoka hanging out, drinking a few beers, and shooting cans on the range together, and while I think they ought to be able to do that, I see nothing in the Second Amendment which guarantees their right to do it. It wasn't about hobbyists, nor hunters, nor really even about individual self-defense. No, the Second Amendment was about citizen defense of the country in order to obviate the need for, and the dangers associated with, standing armies. Well, right now America has the most powerful, most expensive standing army in the world, so so much for that, right? Cessante ratione legis, cessat et ipsa lex. The Second Amendment, in terms of its genuine original purpose, is totally defunct: national militias do not meaningfully defend our country, and the standing army is so potent that armed citizens have no chance of opposing it by force of arms. And so the Second Amendment has been perverted and inverted; once a collective right for the sake of citizen empowerment, now an individual right for the sake of distracting citizens from their disempowerment. There's a reason that the Second Amendment was largely spared in post 9/11 rights erosion: the current "interpretation" of it is trivial to those in power and soothes the segment of society most likely to actually revolt (how ironic, tossing guns to people to prevent revolution).
If America were to disband its standing army and rely on a combination of nuclear deterrence and citizen militias for its defense, I would see a lot of merit in that. Sure, guns would be prevalent, but seriously gun training and regulation would be as well, the sense of responsibility involved would probably be positive, and most importantly and wonderfully, America's international military adventurism would be at an end. If we're going to keep the present course, though, then the spirit of the perverted reinterpretation of the Second Amendment we are left with probably does more harm than good: it distracts "freedom lovers" from actual erosions of their freedom, it grants a false sense of security, and it fuels a gun industry which is largely responsible for flooding our nation (and to some extent, the world) with tools designed to kill one's fellow men at high rates with a minimum of difficulty. |
Mmm...How were the loyalists treated during and after the American Revolution? |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| 12XA7, I know the answer to that question but Canada has done so much to help America in recent history, so let's just say - I love you man. Thanks for your service. *hearty hug* |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
| 12XA7, I know the answer to that question but Canada has done so much to help America in recent history, so let's just say - I love you man. Thanks for your service. *hearty hug* |
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Moondoggy
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: guns |
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| Quack Addict wrote: |
| schwa wrote: |
Never owned one. Never fired one. Never will.
Can anyone else here relate? |
Nope. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. There are enough laws. When people break them, what can you do?
Did you know there are 45,000 deaths per year in America because of cars? Should we ban cars? |
Guns don't make people violent but they just make violent people much more effective. Killing and imprisoning killers doesn't work if we have a gun culture and easy access to guns for all. Psychopaths who plan on suicide later (like Adam Lanza, James Holmes, Cho SeungHui, and the Columbine shooters) are not going to be impressed with the death penalty, except to the degree that they are embracing the concept of killing just like those who support the death penalty. firearms definitely facilitate the slaughter of innocent human beings. Very strict gun control is needed |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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You can buy an assault rife at Wall Mart? FYI, they are currenly sold-out in Pennsylvania, Kansas and Alabama. [Facepalm]
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Guns Sold Out at Wal-Mart as Ammo Surge on E-Bay
With President Barack Obama endorsing sweeping gun restrictions in the wake of the school shootings in Newtown, Connecticut, prices for handgun magazines are surging on EBay (EBAY) and semi-automatic rifles are sold out at many Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (WMT) locations.
Wal-Mart, the world�s largest retailer, said yesterday that it would continue to sell guns, including rifles like the one used at Newtown, where 26 people, most of them children, were killed on Dec. 14. By contrast, Dick�s Sporting Goods Inc. (DKS) suspended sales of similar guns at its more than 500 stores.
Searches of five kinds of semi-automatic rifles on Wal- Mart�s website showed them to be out of stock at stores in five states, including Pennsylvania, Kansas and Alabama.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-19/guns-sold-out-at-wal-mart-as-ammo-surge-on-e-bay.html |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| madoka wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| I don't know where you get your figures. 323 people killed by rifles in the US every year? That's probably just hunting accidents. Multiply that by 30 and you'll be closer to the real number of people who get killed by firearms in the US every year. |
Unlike your random out of your ass guessing, he got his number from the NY Times which was quoting the FBI's Uniform Crime report. And it's not hunting accidents; it's homicides:
"rifles of any type account for only a fraction of homicides in the United States � of 12,664 murder victims last year, 323 were killed with rifles" |
Purposely ignoring the rest of the figures related to firearms and the point that I made about your Second Amendment, eh?
Handguns 6,220
Unknown 1,684
Rifles 323
Shotguns 356
Yeah, whatever. |
A mature adult would admit he was wrong and move on.
Died by Bear only talked about rifles. I only talked about rifles. For some reason you decided to bring in "firearms."
You keep at an argument that only you brought up and think you're still somehow in the right. Keep tilting at those windmills.  |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Guns Sold Out at Wal-Mart as Ammo Surge on E-Bay |
You guys have no idea what kind of selling frenzy there is right now. The largest AR store in California stopped taking phone calls this week, because they sold out of everything. Even the hard to sell expensive models priced at over $2000. Ammo prices went from $0.26 a few months ago to $0.80 a round for .223. Every gun shop out there has sold out of nearly everything that people suspect may get banned. I had to wait three hours in line to buy my stuff. I have five rifles waiting for my background check right now and I would have bought ten more if they were available. It's nuts. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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^ I missed out on a serious investment move...could have churned M-16s for quick profit if I saw this one coming.  |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| madoka wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| I don't know where you get your figures. 323 people killed by rifles in the US every year? That's probably just hunting accidents. Multiply that by 30 and you'll be closer to the real number of people who get killed by firearms in the US every year. |
Unlike your random out of your ass guessing, he got his number from the NY Times which was quoting the FBI's Uniform Crime report. And it's not hunting accidents; it's homicides:
"rifles of any type account for only a fraction of homicides in the United States � of 12,664 murder victims last year, 323 were killed with rifles" |
Purposely ignoring the rest of the figures related to firearms and the point that I made about your Second Amendment, eh?
Handguns 6,220
Unknown 1,684
Rifles 323
Shotguns 356
Yeah, whatever. |
A mature adult would admit he was wrong and move on.
Died by Bear only talked about rifles. I only talked about rifles. For some reason you decided to bring in "firearms."
You keep at an argument that only you brought up and think you're still somehow in the right. Keep tilting at those windmills. |
A mature adult wouldn't have a 16 year-old girl as his avatar...Just saying.
Last edited by 12ax7 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Guns Sold Out at Wal-Mart as Ammo Surge on E-Bay |
You guys have no idea what kind of selling frenzy there is right now. The largest AR store in California stopped taking phone calls this week, because they sold out of everything. Even the hard to sell expensive models priced at over $2000. Ammo prices went from $0.26 a few months ago to $0.80 a round for .223. Every gun shop out there has sold out of nearly everything that people suspect may get banned. I had to wait three hours in line to buy my stuff. I have five rifles waiting for my background check right now and I would have bought ten more if they were available. It's nuts. |
The selling frenzy you should pay attention to is at the stock markets. Gun manufacturers' stock are dropping fast. The largest shareholder of the company that makes the Bushmaster rifle (the same kind the killer used) just announced they will be dumping their stocks. |
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ricochet
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Location: carpetbagging...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:52 am Post subject: |
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'i want a big gun for Christmas to kill the bad man that shot me and my friends in class. our teacher was teaching us about loving each other no matter where or what we...bang, bang we're dead.'  |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Guns Sold Out at Wal-Mart as Ammo Surge on E-Bay |
You guys have no idea what kind of selling frenzy there is right now. The largest AR store in California stopped taking phone calls this week, because they sold out of everything. Even the hard to sell expensive models priced at over $2000. Ammo prices went from $0.26 a few months ago to $0.80 a round for .223. Every gun shop out there has sold out of nearly everything that people suspect may get banned. I had to wait three hours in line to buy my stuff. I have five rifles waiting for my background check right now and I would have bought ten more if they were available. It's nuts. |
I ordered stuff from Karri's Guns, Bravo Company, and AIM a few days ago and it's ALL showing up today. Panic, what panic? |
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