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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
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| In the 2011 Tuscon shooting, the killer was tackled to the ground when he ran out of ammo and attempted to reload. |
That shooter was not in a school setting, and anyway he was also using a handgun with 33 round clips! That's a standard high capacity magazine, the exact same as the one used by the Sandy Hook shooter. |
Yes and if he had only had 10 round magazines and had been tackled to the ground while attempting to reload many lives could have been saved. It seems you are focusing on one detail to avoid addressing the obvious. |
You deal only in hypotheticals. If he had only a 10 round magazine, he might have just brought 3 loaded guns instead. Or the planetary alignment at that precise moment might have resulting in him not fumbling the clip, in which case even more people would have died  Obvious pretty absurd to think about.
Basically you're saying the entire population should be punished and treated as criminals, banned from carrying larger magazine sizes, because in the very rare occasion that some psycho killer goes on a rampage he might fumble the clip (i.e. probably not). Talk about unreasonable. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
I have to wonder if this happened in response to the Sandy Hook shooting-
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(CNN) -- An interactive map showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit-holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has drawn a response from mostly disgruntled readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.
The interactive map published by the Journal News, prompting more than 1,300 comments as of Tuesday, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers.
"So should we start wearing yellow Stars of David so the general public can be aware of who we are??" wrote one commenter. |
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/25/us/new-york-gun-permit-map/index.html
No, it's not comparable to the government making people of certain religion wear a yellow star. It's called freedom of the press which is constitutionally protected. Some people need to get over their persecution complexes. |
It's an brazen disregard for peoples' privacy. It'd be like publishing everyone's individual voting records online, or displaying the amount of cash they have in their bank accounts. In fact it's much worse, since we know that NRA members have been getting death threats from crazed gun-grabber fanatics (openly calling for NRA members to be killed), so publishing this info literally puts their lives at risk. Off the charts ridiculous.
Last edited by visitorq on Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In the 2011 Tuscon shooting, the killer was tackled to the ground when he ran out of ammo and attempted to reload. |
That shooter was not in a school setting, and anyway he was also using a handgun with 33 round clips! That's a standard high capacity magazine, the exact same as the one used by the Sandy Hook shooter. |
Yes and if he had only had 10 round magazines and had been tackled to the ground while attempting to reload many lives could have been saved. It seems you are focusing on one detail to avoid addressing the obvious. |
You deal only in hypotheticals. If he had only a 10 round magazine, he might have just brought 3 loaded guns instead. Or the planetary alignment at that precise moment might have resulting in him not fumbling the clip, in which case even more people would have died Obvious pretty absurd to think about.
Basically you're saying the entire population should be punished and treated as criminals, banned from carrying larger magazine sizes, because in the very rare occasion that some psycho killer goes on a rampage he might fumble the clip (i.e. probably not). Talk about unreasonable. |
Last thread on this subject, if memory serves, you were also dealing in hypotheticals - that if someone had been there with a gun, they'd have stopped the killer.
Are hypotheticals not allowed if they run counter to your premise?
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Again, I ask, to all those who believe there should be no limits on gun ownership - why not RPGs and the like? Automatic weapons? ... armoured vehicles? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Again, I ask, to all those who believe there should be no limits on gun ownership - why not RPGs and the like? Automatic weapons? ... armoured vehicles? |
That sums it up pretty well. The right of the People (that's everyone) to bear arms shall not be infringed because they may be called into a militia at any time. Therefore, the 'arms' which are being protected would logically be those which a legitimate militia member would use. So no nukes, tanks, or artillery. But probably machine guns and possibly grenades.
It's pretty clear who has the right to bear arms, and what the purpose of that right is. If it simply said "The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" and that was the end of it, it would be much more ambiguous. But since it explicitly states that a Militia is "necessary to the security of a free state", it clearly implies that the arms which the People have the right to bear should be those worthy of a militia. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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That's pretty interesting.
I suppose something like an RPG would qualify though... according to that sort of reasoning. It's almost a "if you can carry it" sort of feel to it. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Unposter wrote: |
| We have seen a spate of school and other mass murders. All the statistics show that this has increased since the 1980s. It coincides with the loosening of gun laws and the mass marketing of automatic weapons. |
How on earth can you say this? A loosening of gun laws? In all the cities with the highest crime statistics, guns laws have only gotten tighter over time (often entailing outright bans, as in Washington DC and Chicago), not looser. |
Surely, if crime is high in areas with stricter gun control laws this is because both correlate with highly urbanized areas? I don't pretend to know how effective or not gun control laws are, but the pro-gun side of the debate often puts forward this correlation (between crime and strict gun control law) as if it proved gun control laws are ineffective or even exacerbatory, when actually it proves nothing unless certain other facts are assumed. |
There is no assumption. We know it was drug crime, because all the people killed were drug gang members. Causation, not correlation. The fact that the gun laws were stricter is more of an afterthought (proving that it is not effective at lowering the crime). There actually may be a causal link as well, i.e. that stricter gun laws cause more gun crime, but that's hard to prove. Mostly I'm content to point out that gun control doesn't work. |
The crime rate in the US peaked in the 70s and has trended downward (perhaps with a few blips) ever since. I'm not saying this proves gun control laws have been effective, but, in order to show they have had no effect, you need to show things would not have been worse without their introduction. Perhaps there are studies that might prove this one way or the other, but it is by no means obvious. The point is you expect crime rates to be higher in inner cities no matter what, and you need evidence to show crime rates would not have been higher still without gun control laws. Without such evidence, all you have is correlation, not 'proof' that gun control laws do not work.
In any case, this thread is about the school shooting, which is a different type of crime altogether to gang-related inner city violence, and of which the incidence has been on the rise since 1989. IMO security measures of any sort - whether it be outright bans on guns, armed guards in schools, or guns in glass cases - will not suffice without attention to social ills. Mentally ill people need to be treated (not merely drugged) and supervised. Parents need more time to spend with their children. The culture of fear and paranoia is part of the problem, and the illusory security of either more laws or more guns merely panders to that culture. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Korea, I am honestly not interested in interacting with you in any way on this forum. I would much prefer if we could just ignore each other. Kindly oblige, and refrain from posting at me. Thanks. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| The crime rate in the US peaked in the 70s and has trended downward (perhaps with a few blips) ever since. |
This is simply not true. The violent crime rate was markedly higher in the 80s (in the years after the war on drugs really got started) and early 90's (where it reached its peak).
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| Without such evidence, all you have is correlation |
See above.
| Quote: |
| In any case, this thread is about the school shooting, which is a different type of crime altogether to gang-related inner city violence, and of which the incidence has been on the rise since 1989. IMO security measures of any sort - whether it be outright bans on guns, armed guards in schools, or guns in glass cases - will not suffice without attention to social ills. Mentally ill people need to be treated (not merely drugged) and supervised. Parents need more time to spend with their children. The culture of fear and paranoia is part of the problem, and the illusory security of either more laws or more guns merely panders to that culture. |
I understand this sentiment, but I honestly think culture has less to do the violent crime rates than simply having bad legislation does. People love to trot out statistics about the US having such a high gun crime rate, but almost universally fail to account for the actual reason WHY. It isn't because of culture or moral decay, it's simply because of the war on drugs. Take that out of the equation, and suddenly the US looks quite reasonable (pretty much on par with other Western countries like the UK). Regarding school shootings specifically, sure, I guess you could blame that on the culture of death and drugs, but again it's really a minor source of homicide in the overall statistics (even though it has a much bigger impact in our psyche). In any case, I fail to see how banning guns would stop these shootings anymore than if we had a spat of school arsons and somebody proposed we ban/restrict matches as a solution. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
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Again, I ask, to all those who believe there should be no limits on gun ownership - why not RPGs and the like? Automatic weapons? ... armoured vehicles? |
Indeed why not?
That aside a gun is clearly far more useful and practical for almost any kind of personal self-defense be it in the home or on the street. It's easy to load, carry and use and (in the case of handguns) easily concealable and easy to utilize. Try lugging a RPG downstairs at three in the morning to investigate what you think is a burglar. Not only it is hard to carry and difficult to use...but even if it was a burglar and you got off the first shot...you'd likely take out not only him but your apartment and the next door's neighbors as well. Rifles and handguns just don't have that kind of destructive power. |
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Spartacist
Joined: 18 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| People love to trot out statistics about the US having such a high gun crime rate, but almost universally fail to account for the actual reason WHY. It isn't because of culture or moral decay, it's simply because of the war on drugs. |
Are you saying there isn't a war on drugs in other countries? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacist wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| People love to trot out statistics about the US having such a high gun crime rate, but almost universally fail to account for the actual reason WHY. It isn't because of culture or moral decay, it's simply because of the war on drugs. |
Are you saying there isn't a war on drugs in other countries? |
Not in Canada or the UK, or countries that regularly get compared the US as if they're some kind of utopias due to gun control. Other countries that have massive amounts of drug-related crime (as well as strict gun control) include Mexico, Brazil, Russia, and others. The constant is never gun control, rather it's typically drug prohibition that is to blame. Obviously the US attracts a lot more drug gangs than other countries like Canada, due to it being the largest market for drugs in the world, so this skews the violent crime rate up a great deal (something like 80% of violent crime in urban centers is gang related). But the US is actually quite a bit safer than countries like Mexico or Russia, even though it has much looser gun laws.
Note that most, if not all, of the darkest countries (having the most violent crime) have tighter gun control laws than the US. Clearly gun control is not a meaningful variable to use when assessing violent crime rates, and it must be that others factor are to blame (i.e. drug and/or gang-related crime).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Haha, wow. Now that is funny! Germany has over 2.5 drug drug offenses per person each year?? The Netherlands (famous for being a place where one can legally smoke weed, and enforcement of drug laws is lax at best) has more than 22X the drug offenses as the US? I think your source might be *just a little bit* out to lunch there... |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Captain Korea, I am honestly not interested in interacting with you in any way on this forum. I would much prefer if we could just ignore each other. Kindly oblige, and refrain from posting at me. Thanks. |
Don't like my posts, don't reply to them. No one is holding a gun to your... well, you know. 
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
[
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Again, I ask, to all those who believe there should be no limits on gun ownership - why not RPGs and the like? Automatic weapons? ... armoured vehicles? |
Indeed why not?
That aside a gun is clearly far more useful and practical for almost any kind of personal self-defense be it in the home or on the street. It's easy to load, carry and use and (in the case of handguns) easily concealable and easy to utilize. Try lugging a RPG downstairs at three in the morning to investigate what you think is a burglar. Not only it is hard to carry and difficult to use...but even if it was a burglar and you got off the first shot...you'd likely take out not only him but your apartment and the next door's neighbors as well. Rifles and handguns just don't have that kind of destructive power. |
I thought the US Right to Bear Arms was related to being in a Militia and defending against tyranny. Surely a personal RPG would come in handy for such things.
If we're gauging it on destructive power, then maybe 'assault weapons' and the like should be classed differently.
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As well, perhaps someone should tell the PM that there is no WAr on Drugs in Canada.  |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, Canada: land of the hardened drug criminal, ready to take on the rest of the world!
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B.C. gangsters in over their heads in Mexico
Gangsters from British Columbia are increasingly doing business with drug cartels in Mexico � a recklessly naive trend that has resulted in five deaths in the past four years, police say.
As part of a weeklong series on the effects of the Mexican drug war, CBC News spoke with law enforcement officials in B.C.'s Lower Mainland who say the killings are a clear sign greed is driving local gangs to do business in Mexico.
"It's just naivet� � they have no idea who they're messing with," said Doug Spencer, a former gang investigator with the Vancouver Police Department.
"They're messing with people that kill 50 people and decapitate their heads and throw them in a grave � an unnamed grave � and these gangsters up here think they can go down there and play ball with those guys? They're finding out pretty quick what it's like, right?"
[...]
Nearly 50,000 people have been killed in drug-related violence since the Mexican government launched its crackdown in 2006. |
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/03/05/bc-mexico-gangs.html |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think we both know that Canada has a 'polite disagreement' with drugs. Whereas Mexico has something more like a drug apocalypse, and the U.S. has a drug war. |
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