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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| oppa637 wrote: |
| If you are from the states, dont' forget about no taxes first 2 years. Or even if you have to pay taxes here, far less than in the states. |
No taxes the first two years only applies to public school (and public universities and public research institutes). Public school jobs are becoming increasing hard to get (especially if you are male). I heard public schools are trying to hire more gypos lately too (maybe because they know the culture better and because of their visa are less of a hassle to hire?).
About taxes in the U.S.- half of Americans pay no federal income tax at all and instead can recieve a refund check from the federal goverment (could be thousands of dollars). Americans can get food stamps and other benefits, too. There, rich people support poor people. Sure, you have to pay into social security if you work, but that amount is matched by one's employer, and you get that money back when you hit age 62. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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3500 USD is pretty good money in the States (Not just Korea)
http://www.ehow.com/info_7746957_average-annual-salary-america.html
Quote:
National Averages
The average worker in the United States earns an average hourly wage of $20.90, reports the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' 2010-2011 occupational handbook. This rings up to an average annual salary of $43,460.
It's better than the average wage earnings in America...which is considerably higher than the average in Korea. (3500*13 (severance) is 45,500 USD.
Yeah if you are in a high-ranking corporate position then it's not a lot of money. But it's probably more money than 90-95% of the teachers here make a month. |
Plenty of people in their 30's and 40's make more than 3500 USD a month and aren't exactly "corporate high fliers." And I don't know about you, but when I'm in my late thirties, it doesn't exactly make me feel better that my E-2 visa capped earnings are better than 95% of my fellow TEFLers considering that the majority of them are without skills, in their early to mid twenties extending the uni party because they gave up looking for a job after 6 months when one didn't fall into their laps.
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| All that said - teaching has NEVER been a "lucrative" occupation. It is firmly planted into what would be considered "middle class" just about everywhere on the planet. |
In my opinion, a teaching salary isn't lucrative because of the benefits it comes with like summer and christmas vacations, full extended health care benefits , guaranteed fixed contract for life once you're tenured and defined benefit pension plans. Of course people don't go into teaching for the "money." It is simply a lifestyle choice and I would actually argue that if you factor in all of these benefits, it IS a lucrative career choice and worth far more in net present value than a corporate hack making 130k a year without the guaranteed pension with the standard 2 weeks of vacation a year.
If what you mean by teaching is TEFL in Korea then that is a whole other story.
TEFLing in the ROK gives none of the lucrative benefits that a teacher would, say in Canada, get. And that would make sense because the job requires a fraction of the responsibility. The salary is capped, the pension is lousy, more and more jobs in public schools and unis are requiring camps and extra work over vacation periods. I could be wrong, but I see TEFL in Korea in the future becoming just like any other corporate job back home. A 40 hour work week with standard vacation with the sole difference being no upward mobility in the former. When I'm 40 years old? No thanks. The ceiling in Korea is just too low unless you're married but then you will be taking on a spouse and familial responsibilities in a country with a very small social security net and job options for women.
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| If you want to get rich, get a job as an investment banker on Wall Street, Bloor street or in the London financial district. |
Again you don't have to be the above to make a healthy salary with the chance of making more topping out in the 80-100k range by the time you're 45 in your home country.
Investment bankers don't actually make a very good wage unless you're one of the lucky few that make it to the top without burning out. Associates just work 2-2.5 times more (80-100 hour work weeks) than the normal schmuck making 30 dollars an hour on a 40 hour work week.
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| There are lots of jobs in TEFL and there are lots of career opportunities for those who wish to make a career out of it. |
I would agree, but like I was earlier, you're speculating here. A career implies that things aren't going to change for the worst in the next 30-35 years. I think there will always be teaching jobs but the pay and benefits however just won't be as good.
It is true in that it is whatever you make out of it. But I think the individuals that have made it work for them, would have made it work for themselves back home all the same. They are obviously motivated no socially inept and always looking to network for new opportunities. The average TEFLer in Korea that is here for over a few years, based on my experience, isn't exactly the "go getter" type but that is just the way I see it.
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| Unless you are in a pretty "in-demand occupation", your average, fresh-out-of-college grad is NOT going to make that at home (although the career path at home can quickly outpace what your average TEFLer will earn over the long run). |
I think this is what I was trying to get at. Many out of college grads give up on the career path because they don't want to get crapped on for a few years before they get anywhere in a company. Or they don't want to MOVE to a city in their country where there is work It is a generation of entitlement. If they want to come to Korea to travel, delay reality and extend the party for a year then so be it but I see more and more people staying longer. Instead of retraining for something that could bring a great middle class standard of living in their home country they choose to waste away in Korea teaching EFL before its too late. If I've seen this situation once, I've seen it dozens of times. Many don't go back and keep teaching EFL and then sooner or later become that old guy at the bar in Hongdae. No that there is anything wrong with that if that makes you happy but I sure as hell don't want to be there when I'm that age. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
Sorry newbs but the wage earned by the vast majority of esl teachers here is, was, and has always been about 2- 2.3M a month, enabling you to save just over a million won-roughly 1000 US$ - per month.
So you'll save 12K in a year.
Time to put down the crackpipe and those fantasies of vast wealth tompatz. |
Base salary at a public school - 2.1m (for 22 classes per week - 88/month)
extra classes (up to 6/wk @20k each allowed under a GEPIK contract) - .5m
Housing - .5m
annual airfare (1.3mx2) - .2m
6 weeks of paid annual vacation (as compared to 2 at a hagwon) - .2m
medical / pension (usually unpaid at a hagwon) .2m
value of remuneration package for a NEWBIE at a PS = 3.7m per month or 44.4million krw per year.
Add a couple years of experience to that and it rapidly approaches 50m per year.
Damn... those extras really do add value to a base remuneration package
and double damn... hagwons really do SUCK.
And YES, I agree, the average TEFLer will only manage to save about US$12k per year.
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| misher wrote: |
| Quote: |
3500 USD is pretty good money in the States (Not just Korea)
http://www.ehow.com/info_7746957_average-annual-salary-america.html
Quote:
National Averages
The average worker in the United States earns an average hourly wage of $20.90, reports the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics' 2010-2011 occupational handbook. This rings up to an average annual salary of $43,460.
It's better than the average wage earnings in America...which is considerably higher than the average in Korea. (3500*13 (severance) is 45,500 USD.
Yeah if you are in a high-ranking corporate position then it's not a lot of money. But it's probably more money than 90-95% of the teachers here make a month. |
Plenty of people in their 30's and 40's make more than 3500 USD a month and aren't exactly "corporate high fliers." |
And far more people regardless of age make less. That's why the average is LESS than 3500 USD a month.
Sure if you are lucky...but chances are for most they are not going to be one of those people making more than 3500 USD just like most people aren't now.
| misher wrote: |
| Instead of retraining for something that could bring a great middle class standard of living in their home country they choose to waste away in Korea teaching EFL before its too late. If I've seen this situation once, I've seen it dozens of times. Many don't go back and keep teaching EFL and then sooner or later become that old guy at the bar in Hongdae. No that there is anything wrong with that if that makes you happy but I sure as hell don't want to be there when I'm that age. |
And that is why SOME of us don't just "waste" our time away in Korea. Look for and make your own opportunities and it is perfectly possible to make more money here than back home.
As for being the "old guy at the bar in Hongdae" I've never been there and haven't seen the inside of a bar in years. Not when there are more lucrative choices to spend your time at. If most can't see them...it's because they either can't or don't want to.
That said I agree with Messrs Ttompatz and nautilus about what the AVERAGE tesol'er will save. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| oppa637 wrote: |
| If you are from the states, dont' forget about no taxes first 2 years. Or even if you have to pay taxes here, far less than in the states. |
No taxes the first two years only applies to public school (and public universities and public research institutes). Public school jobs are becoming increasing hard to get (especially if you are male). I heard public schools are trying to hire more gypos lately too (maybe because they know the culture better and because of their visa are less of a hassle to hire?).
About taxes in the U.S.- half of Americans pay no federal income tax at all and instead can recieve a refund check from the federal goverment (could be thousands of dollars). Americans can get food stamps and other benefits, too. There, rich people support poor people. Sure, you have to pay into social security if you work, but that amount is matched by one's employer, and you get that money back when you hit age 62. |
Speaking of social security this is what Forbes has to say about it...this is Forbes and not some conspiracy theory blog.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2012/06/03/the-ugly-truth-about-social-security-is-revealed/ |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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And South Korea is going to be any better when &^%$ hits the fan UrbanMyth? What makes Korea such a great prospect for when you are 50+ years old and grey? You have no idea what government policy will be in another 20 years. You better be socking away those precious Sejongs if you're in it for the long haul. Unless you're planning to buy a cheap piece of land in a 3rd world country to retire on sans good healthcare facilities and political stability. Or you can walk out of here when you are 40 with a few houses paid off back in Canuckistan while walking into a government job plus starting a "consulting" business on the side like another poster on here but for some reason I don't think that happens to too many people.
Nowhere is perfect, but I'll place my bet on Canada, thanks. If you had a choice, and I believe you don't now that you have been in Korea for many years, (funny you still don't speak Korean to at least a semi fluent level considering you will be spending the rest of your better working days there), you probably would as well. Hence your decade + long crusade on here against whiners or individuals that have reasonable criticisms of the place. It justifies the position you've put yourself in. Keep at it.
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And far more people regardless of age make less. That's why the average is LESS than 3500 USD a month.
Sure if you are lucky...but chances are for most they are not going to be one of those people making more than 3500 USD just like most people aren't now. |
And many of those people probably have a high school diploma if that. Especially in the rural south.
I'd be curious to see the stats on the average wage by a university degree holder. Your attempt to use stats and compare university educated people that dropped 40k for their degree (Korea Teflers) to EVERYONE in the US doesn't work.
I spent 40k on my degree and yeah I was born into privilege ( a middle class rural Canadian family) but I'm not going to look at some stat saying that the majority of people my age make 14/hr at the grocery store, shrug my shoulders and say "could be worse, I guess my 3.5 million KRW/month is a GREAT SALARY" WHy the hell would I go out and get a degree if I'm just going to be on a treadmill making 3000$/month for the rest of my life? I would like to have a family one day too and that kind of salary stinks if you want your kid to have a shot at the same privileged middle class lifestyle I had in Canada. Heck a unionized factory worker at Honda in Ontario makes more than an EFL teacher in Korea.
I don't think its a stretch to say that someone with at least a degree will be making much much more than a TEFLer at a PS or hagwon after 3-4 years of post grad work experience (Tompatz already pointed that out) putting capped out hagwon/PS salaries on the low end.
And please don't say the jobs aren't there for recent grads. I've heard enough of this and IMO the job situation isn't that bad. It just isn't like the 1980s where kids were walking out of their unis into good jobs sans hard competition. Jobs are there, its just this generation wants to either extend the party and travel (valid reason I guess as it is good life experience) is too entitled to take something crappy at first that could get better later through hard work, inflexible, or they're just plain lazy, socially inept and whiny from being spoiled.
Another reason is that perhaps they just don't fit in anywhere in western society and would rather dodge its expectations and live an isolated existence as an outsider in a foreign society that places little to no expectations on them. All the power to them but for individuals like this, please don't justify your position to stay in Korea based on financial, pragmatic reasons such as "the salary is so much better here!" "You will have to pay taxes back home!" "There is no free housing!" "THe economy is in ruins! Best to stay here if you're smart and can make it work!" A lot of newbies will get trapped in the ROK long term and will find it harder to go back to their respective countries when they want to return if they listen to such drivel.
I'll say it again. TEFL in Korea is great for getting some travel experience in a different culture and paying back some debt for 1-2 years. I wouldn't recommend it for the long haul as the economy back home isn't that bad if you are motivated. For the people that "make it work" here on an E-2 visa over decades, all the power to you, but I believe that if you can "make it work" in Korea, that go getter attitude should have made it work for you back home too when you were on the job hunt after graduation. /end rant |
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AsiaESLbound
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Location: Truck Stop Missouri
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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It's a way to save money for travel, revisiting certain places to bring key earlier life experiences to a closure, and more importantly; money to enable you to retrain into a new career or start a small business such as in landscaping, construction, or other skill you might already have or go train a year to get at a tech school for licensure. Sometimes state job centers will also have programs where the state pays to sponsor people into certain areas such as nursing and sometimes even IT to fill positions in the microtrend of onshoring IT services in small incubated companies though it's very difficult to be allowed to fill a seat. I feel going to tech school for a specialized skill you can do self employed would be ideal along with your business degree and acumen coupled to allow you to manage and lead yourself into money. That year of training would also be a great time to start the business planning and development such as acquiring tools, permits, experience, written plan, licensure, and contacts. You can also set yourself up by working a year or two in your specialty upon getting licensure to get experience and time your striking out on your own with seasonal or market needs. Or you can just work job for $12 to $15 wage if not a self employed type, but $20 to $40 an hour with 1 or 2 Winter months off is ideal.
If you want a CFA, HVAC, TEFL, DELTA, or other occupational license in order to practice a well paying specialty, you have to pay to self sponsor yourself rather than expecting companies to start you. Self starter go getters are who figure it out. If you fall, get up and try again by stepping down to something that you can do well that pays enough to allow savings. In my case, helping mother and sister was a major trap more than once, but I know that's never to happen again to me so I can finally be my own person starting at the age of 40 now without obligation to fly home to pay mom's bills and go broke in the process. On my own as an independent man pursueing happiness and freebirdin' as an individual who only answers to customer need. A self declaration of independence is empowering me even though I don't yet have lots of money, but the journey is what counts even more than what you can have in the end. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:58 am Post subject: |
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That was an opinion piece written by a rich Republican who wants to invest his retirement money in the stock market and doesn't like the idea of forced savings.
For people who payed into Social Security, the payouts are never going away. Why? Old people vote in proportionally higher numbers than all other demographics. In politics, Social Security is referred to as the "third rail": you (as a politician) touch it, you die.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail_of_politics |
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Firearcher
Joined: 22 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:04 pm Post subject: unemployed |
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| Yep I feel the pain on this thread. I will be out of work next month, have tons of experience but cannot land a job. |
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Firearcher
Joined: 22 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a job posting excerpt.
"We are currently looking for 2 native speaker teachers. Women are preferred but others may apply "
So we have 2 genders as we did before.
1. Female
2. Others
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FastForward
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: unemployed |
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| Firearcher wrote: |
| Yep I feel the pain on this thread. I will be out of work next month, have tons of experience but cannot land a job. |
Seems like the market isn't as good as it was last year when I found a job, but there are plenty of hagwon jobs out there. Don't know what you are looking for and how much you want to make, but kindy jobs seem plentiful. |
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