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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: I am a moralist |
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By that I mean that I believe that there is a right and wrong and that it isn't restricted to the country of one's origin or the people that one deals with.
The old saying 'two wrongs do not make a right' illustrates this wonderfully. For example, if a Korean employer supposedly breaks the contract that act does not give permission for the western teacher to violate the agreement. To do so would be to commit a second wrong and nothing right will come of it.
The duel breaking of the contract can lead to the childish excuse, 'he did it first'. That excuse doesn't hold water in the west and it doesn't hold water here. To point the finger at the other person is merely a weak justification for one's violations but doesn't cover up the fact that the western teacher broke the agreement and is in the wrong.
People may not like what I wrote in another thread but that is their choice. Even if the two guys told 100% of what happened, the Korean acts are not permission for them or other westerners to condemn Koreans and trash them whenever possible.
The 30 day notice may be contested but according to most contracts, if the teacher acts in away that brings down the reputation of the school they are employed at they still can be fired.
Their subsequent actions have tarnished their employers reputation and the schools are in the right it they choose not to continue the employment of the two teachers.
Again saying 'they did it first' does not relieve the westerner of any responsibility that comes with the violation of the contract on their part. |
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chrisinkorea2011
Joined: 16 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ok so i dont post that much on here, because I enjoy just reading the posts and seeing how others think and the such. However I gotta say that you are being pretty damn immature about this whole thing. You are trying to come off with your "mightier than thou" tirade which is rather childish.
Here are the FACTS
1. you DONT know the entire situation about the two guys in the other thread as in their actions, the korean guy's actions and what was said.
2. Korea is a country that can be sometimes pretty damn biased in their choices and thoughts on foreigners.
3. The justice system here is FLAWED. It has been for a LONG time. How do I know that? Im korean blooded and have friends, family members, etc who were BORN in korea in the 50, 60, 70's said that even then corruption and horrible thinking were a common occurance. Am I saying that it ALWAYS was corrupt in choices for foreigners? No but it sure as hell occurred more often than not.
4. You are parading on here about morals, childish actions etc when you were coming off in the same childish manner in your rantings to others because they questioned where you were coming off from. We call that a hypocrite in ANY country.
Sir/maam imma have to ask you to remove yourself kindly from your high horse. good day to you  |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, you are a moralist who said "Westerners are not known for their honesty.", and "There are only a few bad Koreans.".
In the interest of keeping things honest, as you insist of others, how about showing where ANYONE here said they thought this:
| kinship wrote: |
Again saying 'they did it first' does not relieve the westerner of any responsibility that comes with the violation of the contract on their part.
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chrisinkorea2011
Joined: 16 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
Yes, you are a moralist who said "Westerners are not known for their honesty.", and "There are only a few bad Koreans.".
In the interest of keeping things honest, as you insist of others, how about showing where ANYONE here said they thought this:
| kinship wrote: |
Again saying 'they did it first' does not relieve the westerner of any responsibility that comes with the violation of the contract on their part.
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But that would mean Kinship would have to fess up! cant have that |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: I am a moralist |
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| kinship wrote: |
The old saying 'two wrongs do not make a right' illustrates this wonderfully. For example, if a Korean employer supposedly breaks the contract that act does not give permission for the western teacher to violate the agreement. To do so would be to commit a second wrong and nothing right will come of it.
The duel breaking of the contract can lead to the childish excuse, 'he did it first'. That excuse doesn't hold water in the west and it doesn't hold water here. To point the finger at the other person is merely a weak justification for one's violations but doesn't cover up the fact that the western teacher broke the agreement and is in the wrong.
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You are either a well educated troll or someone that is very confused. I'm not sure which. Anyway, if an employer doesn't respect a contract they can't expect anyone else to respect it. It's a mutual agreement. It's really low to get someone to fly all the way to another country only to take advantage of them in a position of vulnerability. You are entitled to your opinion though, even if noone cares about it. I will commend you for letting the guy that is asking for advice on a court case get back to his issues so everybody can play this game with you on a seperate thread.
I guess what I'm really trying to say is that Korea has been a homogenous society for years now. It's culture and language are distinct which make difficult for foreigners to understand. As guests in this country we can take the high road by doing things like potato. |
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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I gotta say that you are being pretty damn immature about this whole thing |
Actually I am not. I am merely making an explanation for my point of view.
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| You are trying to come off with your "mightier than thou" tirade which is rather childish. |
Why? Because it hits home and you do not like it?
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| Korea is a country that can be sometimes pretty damn biased in their choices and thoughts on foreigners. |
So? All that shows, and I pointed it out, that Korea is just like western countries and again you do not like it. You want Korea to be some ideal nation following parameters you have conjured up and they know nothing about.
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| The justice system here is FLAWED |
So? Again Korea proves it is not a Utopiian nation and just like western countries. Again, you hate it because it doesn't do what you want and you forget that you are not alone. Other people have ideas different than yours and they want to see them implemented just like you do yours.
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| Im korean blooded and have friends, family members, etc who were BORN in korea in the 50, 60, 70's said that even then corruption and horrible thinking were a common occurance |
So? Corruption is everywhere, it isn't news. What is of interest is why didn't your friends and families change the system when they had the chance?
People like you and the two guys are a dime a dozen. Year in and year out we see and hear the same things.
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| You are parading on here about morals, childish actions etc when you were coming off in the same childish manner in your rantings to others because they questioned where you were coming off from. We call that a hypocrite in ANY country |
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If you read through that thread, you will see where I took the time to respond to the many people and presented my point of view, I am not going to re-say the same things over and over. I am not hypocritical at all as I require myself to meet the same things I talk about.
As I said in one post in the other thread, when bad things take place against me I try to return good instead of bad. It works, you all should try it.
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| Sir/maam imma have to ask you to remove yourself kindly from your high horse |
I am accused of that a lot yet I sit on no high horse. When people say that to me they usually want me to be just like them and that is wrong and an impossibility. I do not make things worse for other westerners and I am not about to join you or others like you who do. |
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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyway, if an employer doesn't respect a contract they can't expect anyone else to respect it. |
That isn't the point. Expectation is not a requirement but when a person signs a contract they are saying they will abide by it. There are no clauses in the contract which allow the other party to break the contract if one does.
In other words, you agreed to abide by the contract regardless of the actions of the other person.
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| It's really low to get someone to fly all the way to another country only to take advantage of them in a position of vulnerability. |
I would agree but again, Korea is not unique in this issue. Like I alluded to in the other thread, immigrants to western countries are in need of a westerner who can understand what they are going through and face. The experience gained here would or should motivate the westerner to make changes in their homeland. Yet I hear of few, if any, that do go that route to help others in their home country.
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| I guess what I'm really trying to say is that Korea has been a homogenous society for years now. It's culture and language are distinct which make difficult for foreigners to understand. As guests in this country we can take the high road by doing things like potato. |
Still not an excuse for acting bad in return. Why lower yourself to the level of the person you think is screwing you? |
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singerdude
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: I am a moralist |
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| kinship wrote: |
| The old saying 'two wrongs do not make a right' illustrates this wonderfully. For example, if a Korean employer supposedly breaks the contract that act does not give permission for the western teacher to violate the agreement. To do so would be to commit a second wrong and nothing right will come of it. |
I understand your argument about the two wrongs not making a right. What about the first wrong however? Take your example above. What would you recommend doing if you are the one being wronged? |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| In other words, you agreed to abide by the contract regardless of the actions of the other person. |
No. You agree to abide by the contract regardless of the actions of the other person, AND regardless of the fact that the legal system will most likely not allow you to receive proper justice. |
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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, you are a moralist who said "Westerners are not known for their honesty.", and "There are only a few bad Koreans.". |
I said the first part but the second looks out of context to me. And yes, if westerners were known for their honesty, we would not have had so many changes in the requirements to teach here.
I believe I gave two good examples about CRCs and driver's licenses. The second part, if you quoted me correctly, refers to the point that there are more good Koreans who do not do the things you accuse them of doing. If you read the accounts, you will see that only a few people, probably less than 10,are involved in this supposed travesty of justice. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kinship wrote: |
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| Yes, you are a moralist who said "Westerners are not known for their honesty.", and "There are only a few bad Koreans.". |
I said the first part but the second looks out of context to me. And yes, if westerners were known for their honesty, we would not have had so many changes in the requirements to teach here.
I believe I gave two good examples about CRCs and driver's licenses. The second part, if you quoted me correctly, refers to the point that there are more good Koreans who do not do the things you accuse them of doing. If you read the accounts, you will see that only a few people, probably less than 10,are involved in this supposed travesty of justice. |
Excuse me, but the changes in requirements have nothing to do with WESTERN dishonesty. It has to do with human nature. If that's not the case then why did I work for a Korean who got his PhD for copying out a dictionary? And why do so many Korean university students plagiarize as if it were an academic requirement?
Wow, CRCs SHOULD be required in educational positions as they are in other countries. |
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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I understand your argument about the two wrongs not making a right. What about the first wrong however? Take your example above. What would you recommend doing if you are the one being wronged? |
Well since I have been wronged by both westerners and Koreans in this country, I did nothing in retaliation. Usually I found other work and did not take to the internet to trash Koreans.
Sometimes, retaliating only makes things worse. I took the loss and moved on. That may make me a chump but it has allowed me to be successful here as a teacher. |
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kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Excuse me, but the changes in requirements have nothing to do with WESTERN dishonesty. It has to do with human nature. |
I think every long termer in this country will disagree with you. I pointed to what is common knowledge on how westerners were telling newbies to avoid their criminal records by going to a different state to get it done. That dishonesty on the part of the westerners lead to the change to the FBI CRC.
Then, westerners were turning in fake licenses and doing other tricks to gain a Korean one. That dishonesty lead to another change. Don't sweep it under the rug and say it is human nature, it is dishonesty all the way around because people had a choice to do it right. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| kinship wrote: |
Well since I have been wronged by both westerners and Koreans in this country, I did nothing in retaliation. Usually I found other work and did not take to the internet to trash Koreans.
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But you just did twice now, take to the internet to trash westerners for a wrongly perceived reason. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| kinship wrote: |
Still not an excuse for acting bad in return. Why lower yourself to the level of the person you think is screwing you? |
Why? From what I understand in the 80's and 90's ESL teachers were treated horribly here. I wasn't here so I can't confirm this personally but maybe some people that were here can help me out on that. I also know that our contracts are good, but they are good for a reason. In the past when people pulled runners it did encourage the hakwons and public schools to be more accommodating to foreigners. When foreigners publicized breaches of contract and injustices it did lead to changes in the Korean legal system that were beneficial to both foreigners and Koreans. In my opinion it has led to improvements in the way potential employees in hakwons and public schools have been screened as well as improvements in the contracts to attract people that aren't troublemakers. In this way it has led to more qualified instructors for Korean students that want to learn English. If you treat employees like they are all losers and the bottom of the barrel, then expect to get employees that are losers that come from the bottom of the barrel. If you hire qualified guys and treat them accordingly, you can expect them to go home and tell their friends. As word spreads you will get more qualified candidates. As ESL in Korea begins to be associated with these qualified and competent people, the quality of the candidates will continue to improve.
Or just keep bashing us and hold up the worst as the worst as the standard that we are all judged by. |
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