|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:51 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| kinship wrote: |
I think every long termer in this country will disagree with you. I pointed to what is common knowledge on how westerners were telling newbies to avoid their criminal records by going to a different state to get it done. That dishonesty on the part of the westerners lead to the change to the FBI CRC.
Then, westerners were turning in fake licenses and doing other tricks to gain a Korean one. That dishonesty lead to another change. Don't sweep it under the rug and say it is human nature, it is dishonesty all the way around because people had a choice to do it right. |
Read your last sentence.
You are again not willing to see the basis of the issue. The point is, anyone, western or not, will look for loopholes to cheat a system if they can. Koreans do it all the time. Why are you so biased to such an extreme that this escapes you?
This semester alone, by exact calculations, 65% of my Korean uni students plagiarized their final projects with copy and paste, despite explicit instructions that they would fail if caught.
Last edited by crescent on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:55 pm; edited 4 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crescent wrote: |
| kinship wrote: |
Well since I have been wronged by both westerners and Koreans in this country, I did nothing in retaliation. Usually I found other work and did not take to the internet to trash Koreans.
|
But you just did twice now, take to the internet to trash westerners for a wrongly perceived reason. |
No, I took it to the source. I am saying my point of view right to their faces and they have a chance to respond with more facts and details but, if you noticed, they did not. They also did not present anything to refute one point I made.
I asked about the adjectives, specifically the word 'magically', they did not address that for it meant that they would have to confess that they fought back. Of course, they cannot confess on here because if a Korean spots it, they are doomed for sure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kinship wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Excuse me, but the changes in requirements have nothing to do with WESTERN dishonesty. It has to do with human nature. |
I think every long termer in this country will disagree with you. I pointed to what is common knowledge on how westerners were telling newbies to avoid their criminal records by going to a different state to get it done. That dishonesty on the part of the westerners lead to the change to the FBI CRC.
Then, westerners were turning in fake licenses and doing other tricks to gain a Korean one. That dishonesty lead to another change. Don't sweep it under the rug and say it is human nature, it is dishonesty all the way around because people had a choice to do it right. |
You are passing the buck. That was a blatantly flawed system. It was a failed immigration policy. Don't blame the west, the west didn't ship it's criminals over there on purpose. We have a system that works if it is understood and used properly. The Korean immigration system failed to do that. Korea is to blame for that, not westerners. Likewise, the west can't blame other countries for "sending" their criminals to us. It's our fault. I think Korea is far enough ahead in the game to take responsibility for it's actions. Maybe you think it is some kind of a hopeless country that needs to be looked after by the West, but I disagree. It is an independent country that can take care of itself. Korea can handle it's own immigration policies, that isn't the job of Western countries. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crescent wrote: |
| kinship wrote: |
I think every long termer in this country will disagree with you. I pointed to what is common knowledge on how westerners were telling newbies to avoid their criminal records by going to a different state to get it done. That dishonesty on the part of the westerners lead to the change to the FBI CRC.
Then, westerners were turning in fake licenses and doing other tricks to gain a Korean one. That dishonesty lead to another change. Don't sweep it under the rug and say it is human nature, it is dishonesty all the way around because people had a choice to do it right. |
Read your last sentence.
You are again not willing to see the basis of the issue. The point is, anyone, western or not, will look for loopholes to cheat a system if they can. Koreans do it all the time. Why are you so biased to such an extreme that this escapes you? |
Your are proving my point in the other thread about westerners not taking responsibility for their actions. Koreans were not going to the west and getting state CRCs so they could teach in their own country. Nor were they turning in fake western licenses to get a license they are entitled to.
It was solely a western act of dishonesty. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kinship wrote: |
| Your are proving my point in the other thread about westerners not taking responsibility for their actions. Koreans were not going to the west and getting state CRCs so they could teach in their own country. Nor were they turning in fake western licenses to get a license they are entitled to. |
I surely am not proving any of your points. It's bizarre how poorly you are doing here, and I'm starting to wonder if you are just playing games.
You are, for a third time ignoring the point that westerners are not alone in cheating the system. THere are a myriad of other ways to cheat other systems than by getting a CRC from out of state. Are you deliberately being dishonest in this thread about honesty, or are you unable to comprehend it?
How do you know Koreans do not cheat the system? I can recall 3 high profile examples in the past year alone of Koreans cheating the system to get jobs they are not entitled to.
And I just told you of the PhD, and my uni students? They are exempt from being dishonest? Kreist, ever hear of Shin Jeong-ah? I bet according to you she was an anomaly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Why? From what I understand in the 80's and 90's ESL teachers were treated horribly here. I wasn't here so I can't confirm this personally but maybe some people that were here can help me out on that |
Maybe we should have rules on what we can use as examples as I was taken to task for using examples from other countries and other eras and now you are going to the past and another era to make a point.
Does the past justify bad behavior in the present? Are we here to retaliate for past indiscressions?
| Quote: |
| In the past when people pulled runners it did encourage the hakwons and public schools to be more accommodating to foreigners. When foreigners publicized breaches of contract and injustices it did lead to changes in the Korean legal system that were beneficial to both foreigners and Koreans |
.
I am not a fan nor supporter of midnight runs and I do not think those two reasonsdo your point justice. They are too broad as the midnight runs and publication of supposed bad treatment are/were not done solely in the name of obtaining justice.
The frivolous excuses used to justify their actions diminishes the worth of those two acts . It also bestows upon them some righteous motive that wasn't always present in the minds of those who committed them.
| Quote: |
| In my opinion it has led to improvements |
I do not think you could prove that sufficiently to anyone's satisfaction. How do you know that private meetings with those, who did not do midnight runs or published their subjective experience, lead to those improvements?
| Quote: |
| If you treat employees like they are all losers and the bottom of the barrel, then expect to get employees that are losers that come from the bottom of the barrel |
Only if you let it. Sometimes people need to toughen up. Who is to say that such treatment wasn't used to weed out the bad teachers?
| Quote: |
| If you hire qualified guys and treat them accordingly, you can expect them to go home and tell their friends |
The bold word is a bit of a sticking point with me. Who is qualified? Those who have education degrees or those who can adapt to a different culture? Many of the former have come here and fled because they could not do the latter and many of the latter may not have an education degree but they can still teach because it is a gift.
Qualifications are subjective. Now to address your point, even in its supposed darkest days of bad treatment, people still came to Korea to teach. It didn't seem to hurt them or the industry.
| Quote: |
| Or just keep bashing us and hold up the worst as the worst as the standard that we are all judged by |
I will repeat my question: If you think the Koreans have lowered themselves to a bad level, why go to their level and prove them right? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am however curious... why do you think that or wish to impose the Judea-christian ethics and morals (two wrongs don't make a right) on or within a culture that is largely not.
The "eye for an eye" option (he did it so I am returning the deed) clearly contradicts your view but is a common belief in more than 50% of the countries on the planet (including the foreign policy of most western governments).
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kinship wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
| kinship wrote: |
Well since I have been wronged by both westerners and Koreans in this country, I did nothing in retaliation. Usually I found other work and did not take to the internet to trash Koreans.
|
But you just did twice now, take to the internet to trash westerners for a wrongly perceived reason. |
No, I took it to the source. I am saying my point of view right to their faces and they have a chance to respond with more facts and details but, if you noticed, they did not. They also did not present anything to refute one point I made.
I asked about the adjectives, specifically the word 'magically', they did not address that for it meant that they would have to confess that they fought back. Of course, they cannot confess on here because if a Korean spots it, they are doomed for sure. |
I'm not taking about those specific guys. I obviously referred you trashing ALL westerners for their perceived lack of honesty.
Look! A moralist who makes sweeping generalizations!
Last edited by crescent on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| You are, for a third time ignoring the point that westerners are not alone in cheating the system |
You are either willfully being ignorant or you just do not see it. The requirements I used as examples were for westerners alone. They alone are responsible for the changes in their requirements. Why do you refuse to see that? The Koreans do not need nor use western visa/teaching regulations to accomplish what they want in their own country.
| Quote: |
| THere are a myriad of other ways to cheat other systems than by getting a CRC from out of state. Are you deliberately being dishonest in this thread about honesty, or are you unable to comprehend it? |
No, you have just gone to the absurd and I am not going to follow. I am not talking about what the people of other countries do, I am focused soley on those regulations imposed solely upon westerners.
There is not other geographical location involved. it is solely what westerners have done and done to themselves. Why do you refuse to see this?
| Quote: |
| I can recall 3 high profile examples in the past year alone of Koreans cheating the system to get jobs they are not entitled to. |
I wasn't talking about Koreans because what Koreans do in their own country does not affect the visa/teaching regulations westerns have to meet. You are bringing in examples that have nothing to do with what is being discussed.
And you are proving me correct because you refuse to see that you are showing that westerners are not taking responsibility for their actions. You are blaming people that have nothing to do with the changes in requirements for westerners. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kinship wrote: |
I will repeat my question: If you think the Koreans have lowered themselves to a bad level, why go to their level and prove them right? |
Self interest. It's not fun being a slave. That is why. At the end of day, who cares what an ignorant racist thinks of me? I have no reason to prove anything to someone who won't see me as a human being.
I wouldn't ask a minority in the USA to try to prove themselves to a white supremacist. There is no need for a minority in the USA to spend their life trying to prove themselves to a skinhead. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kinship wrote: |
[
You are either willfully being ignorant or you just do not see it. The requirements I used as examples were for westerners alone. They alone are responsible for the changes in their requirements. Why do you refuse to see that? The Koreans do not need nor use western visa/teaching regulations to accomplish what they want in their own country. |
Is the issue here dishonesty? Or CRCs? Koreans cheat their own system and therefore are just as dishonest. What, the westerner is dishonest because he scammed a CRC, but the Korean who faked a PhD is not?
| Quote: |
| No, you have just gone to the absurd and I am not going to follow. I am not talking about what the people of other countries do, I am focused soley on those regulations imposed solely upon westerners. |
I see, so to prove that westerners are more dishonest than others, we should only focus on what the westerner does.
| Quote: |
| I wasn't talking about Koreans because what Koreans do in their own country does not affect the visa/teaching regulations westerns have to meet. You are bringing in examples that have nothing to do with what is being discussed. |
This discussion is on the topic of dishonesty. You are implying that westerners are more dishonest than others. I am bringing in examples of dishonesty on other sides to show western dishonesty os not greater.
You are obviously a troll and I'm embarrassed its taken me this long to see it. No one can be this much of an imbecile, so it must be an act.
Last edited by crescent on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I am however curious... why do you think that or wish to impose the Judea-christian ethics and morals (two wrongs don't make a right) on or within a culture that is largely not. |
First off, two rights don't make a wrong has no foundation in Judeo-Christian ethics. If I said to 'turn the other cheek' then you would have a point.
Second, to answer you, I am not talking to Koreans or trying to impose it upon their society. I am talking to westerners who have been taught this from their childhood who need to know that that lesson applies to their behavior in any country they go to.
We do not throw out what we have been taught to justify our bad actions in response to perceived bad treatment.
| Quote: |
| The "eye for an eye" option (he did it so I am returning the deed) clearly contradicts your view but is a common belief in more than 50% of the countries on the planet (including the foreign policy of most western governments |
I am trying to avoid any religious discussion, so I will be careful with my words. To use a different culture's beliefs to justify one's own bad response when they are NOT from that particular culture means that they are using those cultures as an excuse to justify ignoring their own culture's teachings in order to exact some revenge for whatever reason they may have. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Self interest. It's not fun being a slave. That is why. At the end of day, who cares what an ignorant racist thinks of me? I have no reason to prove anything to someone who won't see me as a human being. |
I think you would get an argument over the use of the word 'slave' and though I disagree with you I won't address it. Suffice it to say we really are not slaves here but I amsure som efeel like they are.
I also think that you are intelligent enough to see what I am saying and how it applies. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kinship wrote: |
Second, to answer you, I am not talking to Koreans or trying to impose it upon their society. I am talking to westerners who have been taught this from their childhood who need to know that that lesson applies to their behavior in any country they go to.
|
Why does it apply to any country they go to? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kinship
Joined: 24 Jan 2013
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| You are implying that westerners are more dishonest than others |
Now I see what you have done. You have misunderstood the main word I used in my comment. I used the word 'reputation' and that word does NOT imply that westerners are more dishonest than any other people of any other nation. It merely states a fact that they are KNOWN THAT WAY, whether it is true or not.
You may not be dishonest but given the reputation that has come to westerners as a whole because of the actions I mentioned and many other actions (remember the girl that mailed drugs to herself in a cake? I believe she lived in Busan at the time), westerners in general are labeled as dishonest.
It is unfair but, like people on this board, other people from other nations do not want to be specific either and make generalizations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
