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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Aren't we constantly being told that we are on the brink of environmental catastrophe and that we need to limit our consumption and impact on the environment? Surely then, a stably declining population would be a good thing? |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Please watch the whole video.
If the US gets old without young people to keep the economy the US will become like Japan . Only immigration has kept the US going and will keep the US going. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
| If the US gets old without young people to keep the economy the US will become like Japan . Only immigration has kept the US going and will keep the US going. |
Even the author admits that this is just a bandaid, since immigrants quickly reach American fertility rates after immigrating.
And while it would be a temporary fix, large-scale immigration presents the necessity of major cultural change. On the whole (as a voting block), immigrants from Latin America oppose gay rights and support 'pro-life' positions in greater numbers than Americans. Latin American immigrants also often maintain the national identity of their birthplace, rather than their adoptive home. And I suppose I'd be wasting my time reminding you of how Mexico lost half of its country because of immigrants who identified more with their old home than with their new one. Last thing we want to do is learn from the mistakes of others. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Even the author admits that this is just a bandaid, since immigrants quickly reach American fertility rates after immigrating. |
Precisely. We are all going to have to deal with the reality of an ageing population. Importing large numbers of people from abroad (many of whom will themselves become a tax burden) does nothing to tackle this issue. It merely keeps the ponzi scheme going. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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You know, purely as an aside, the greatest crime of Bernard Madoff was not defrauding people, it was doing something that resulted in everyone and his brother describing everything as a "ponzi scheme."
Social security is not a ponzi scheme. Medicare is not a ponzi scheme. Immigration is not a ponzi scheme. The entropy-driven universe spiraling towards heat death is not a ponzi scheme. X seeming unsustainable over infinite time does not mean X is a ponzi scheme. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| But an unsustainable economic system based on ever greater levels of consumption and debt-based growth (hence the need for ever more workers and consumers) amid a declining natural resource base does seem to me to be rather ponzi-like. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| It's just the tree of usury producing its inevitable fruit. Calling it a ponzi scheme implies there's something fraudulent or secretive about it, but there's nothing especially secretive or fraudulent about the socially-destructive impact of usury; even pre-modern man was well aware of it's implications. That's what's so perverse about the status quo: everything you need to know to condemn it is completely in the open and above the table. Sure, there are individual instances of fraud here or there, but the system would be broken even without them. |
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GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:04 am Post subject: |
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At least it helps the US put off the day when we have to deal with the problem.As the author says immigration has kept the US from going the way of Japan or Western Europe. Of course you want talented immigrants and they ought to get entry to the US first.
WSJ is not any kind of left wing source. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| It's just the tree of usury producing its inevitable fruit. Calling it a ponzi scheme implies there's something fraudulent or secretive about it, but there's nothing especially secretive or fraudulent about the socially-destructive impact of usury |
Can you define usury, please? Is it simply charging interest on credit, or is it something else? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| GENO123 wrote: |
At least it helps the US put off the day when we have to deal with the problem.As the author says immigration has kept the US from going the way of Japan or Western Europe. Of course you want talented immigrants and they ought to get entry to the US first.
WSJ is not any kind of left wing source. |
No, but it has almost always been pro-immigration. It is more of a "old-school"/N.East Republican mouthpiece: ie free market for everything,small government, with little focus on social issues.
Anyway,
Why Declining Fertility isn't the Root Problem of the US
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| The total fertility rate (births per average woman in her lifetime) is about what it was three decades ago. The scary drop over the last several years is apparently due to the recession and looks like it's bottoming out. (In fact, as recently as 2009 I could write, quite reasonably, of the "unmistakable trend" toward higher fertility�look at the increase from 1976 to 2008.) |
| Quote: |
| The U.S. has the highest fertility among major rich countries. Many of the countries above the U.S. on the following list have tried hard to get their populations to have more children, for some of the reasons Land suggests. It mostly doesn't work. Here are the 2012 total fertility rates for a range of countries, from CIA estimates. I don't think I missed any rich countries with higher fertility than the U.S. |
I am definitely pro-immigration, but I'm a libertarian when it comes to labor (ie if I were dictator, I'd have open borders). I just think the fertility issue is a pretty weak reason to have immigration reform. There are enough economic reasons to justify reform. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's just the tree of usury producing its inevitable fruit. Calling it a ponzi scheme implies there's something fraudulent or secretive about it, but there's nothing especially secretive or fraudulent about the socially-destructive impact of usury |
Can you define usury, please? Is it simply charging interest on credit, or is it something else? |
Lending money for interest. Not legal "usury," actual usury: it traps people in de facto servitude and redirects wealth upwards in a cumulatively greater fashion. At best, it's like having an angry bull ploughing your fields: if you're really careful and competent you can probably keep him somewhat calm and on task and score some net productivity, but you're probably going to slip up sooner or later, and then what? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's just the tree of usury producing its inevitable fruit. Calling it a ponzi scheme implies there's something fraudulent or secretive about it, but there's nothing especially secretive or fraudulent about the socially-destructive impact of usury |
Can you define usury, please? Is it simply charging interest on credit, or is it something else? |
Lending money for interest. Not legal "usury," actual usury. |
Lending money for interest is defensible. If interest is reasonably close to inflation + 3% (to cover typical rate of defaulting loans), its just credit lending. The world needs credit for starting businesses and the purchase of expensive consumer products to be held for a long time (such as cars or housing). |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Lending money for interest is defensible. If interest is reasonably close to inflation + 3% (to cover typical rate of defaulting loans), its just credit lending. The world needs credit for starting businesses and the purchase of expensive consumer products to be held for a long time (such as cars or housing). |
Housing is a perfect example of my case. Lending money to buy houses drastically drives up the prices of houses, which in turn forces the average person to borrow to ever have a chance, which in turn drives up housing prices more due to broader borrowing, which in turn eventually leads to dysfunction. Housing prices need to be aggressively driven down, not pumped up. Cars are another example of this dysfunction: automobile dealerships take out loans to purchase and stock cars, which consumers then take out loans to buy for their use. That's two points at which usury increases the effective price of a product without actually improving it; two leaks in our economy. Redistributing wealth to the poor fellow who is at risk of starving is inefficient but humane; redistributing wealth to someone because they already have a fantastic amount of wealth is likewise inefficient, but there's nothing of humanity in it, so we ought not to do it. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| There are enough economic reasons to justify reform. |
Such as record high unemployment? |
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