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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| How many lifers (living here since the 90s, married to a Korean, have a Korean kid or two, etc.) can speak Korean? Almost none at all. That should tell you something. |
Before all the regular lifers on here chime in with how fluent they are, I tend to agree with you from my experience. Having said that, virtually all the people I know who married Koreans have left the country so there's even less motivation than usual for them. The one guy I know who can speak Korean fluently can also speak a few other obscure languages pretty well. |
I know people that can and can't speak Korean well that are married with kids. The distinguishing factor in my experience is that those that can studied before they met their significant other. I haven't met anyone that started their relationship speaking English and then after marriage studied and practiced to a conversational level.
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
in that simple example we've made it much easier than it'd be in english just by being cognizant of the situation and how the language is used. there was a study (i can't find the link at the moment) that showed that the average korean uses a fraction of the words that an english speaker would use on a daily basis in speech.
anyways that's just some food for thought. however, for someone with the name "world traveler", you sure don't seem to have a very worldly mind. carry on. |
I have to say you are right and you are wrong. You are right that Korean is a lot more simple than English. However, you are wrong in assuming that is going to make it easier for an English speaker. Our minds have to adjust to that simplicity which is very hard. Learning spoken Korean requires that English speakers adjust the way you express yourself. Also, being cognizant of the situation requires understanding all the little nuances of what is being said around you. I will add that they use far less words, but the words are buried in subtle grammar. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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I can empathise with your feeling but '우리 나라' just means 'Korea'
It is often said out of earshot to non-Koreans.
Dont misunderstand it. |
If you are someone like steelrails, then you can tell yourself if just means "Korea" but since it is often said out of earshot of non-Koreans, it means 'our country' and basically 'not yours' I always ask Koreans why they can't say "This Country" as it works in English...Without fail, the ones who defend 'our country' have to start talking about the Japanese invading the country.. I know that it's just an expression and it's not intrinsically evil, but I also ask about immigrants who come to this country and if they are allowed to say 'our country.' Few would say yes to that one. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Korean to me is much more difficuolt then mandariin. Also Korean is less useful for obvious reasons. But i still made an efort to learn as much as i could. I did not want to live in a Western Bubble. Associate only with WEsterners. i could do that at home
Speak conversational mandarin in a month????? usually it takes months to somewhat master the tones.
I do not believe thatfor one second. i speak good mandarin but i have been in china for awhile and married to a chinese citizen. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
Korean to me is much more difficuolt then mandariin. Also Korean is less useful for obvious reasons. But i still made an efort to learn as much as i could. I did not want to live in a Western Bubble. Associate only with WEsterners. i could do that at home
Speak conversational mandarin in a month????? usually it takes months to somewhat master the tones.
I do not believe thatfor one second. i speak good mandarin but i have been in china for awhile and married to a chinese citizen. |
The interesting thing is that, although the grammar is different, I've found that the huge number of loan words cause Chinese and Korean to reinforce one another, a non-trivial benefit given the vocabulary is probably the most difficult element of both languages for a Westerner. Korean definitely seems harder than Chinese though; I thought the tones would give me trouble, but compared to those bloody double consonants (which still sound almost identical to me) they're not that bad. |
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Hugo85
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
Korean to me is much more difficuolt then mandariin. Also Korean is less useful for obvious reasons. But i still made an efort to learn as much as i could. I did not want to live in a Western Bubble. Associate only with WEsterners. i could do that at home
Speak conversational mandarin in a month????? usually it takes months to somewhat master the tones.
I do not believe thatfor one second. i speak good mandarin but i have been in china for awhile and married to a chinese citizen. |
The interesting thing is that, although the grammar is different, I've found that the huge number of loan words cause Chinese and Korean to reinforce one another, a non-trivial benefit given the vocabulary is probably the most difficult element of both languages for a Westerner. Korean definitely seems harder than Chinese though; I thought the tones would give me trouble, but compared to those bloody double consonants (which still sound almost identical to me) they're not that bad. |
I've found the double consonants to be pretty inconsequential in being understood. I've had more problem with 의 외 위 희 회 휘 and their change in pronunciation depending on their position within the word. I have no clue how to pronounce something like 의회. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Hugo85 wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
Korean to me is much more difficuolt then mandariin. Also Korean is less useful for obvious reasons. But i still made an efort to learn as much as i could. I did not want to live in a Western Bubble. Associate only with WEsterners. i could do that at home
Speak conversational mandarin in a month????? usually it takes months to somewhat master the tones.
I do not believe thatfor one second. i speak good mandarin but i have been in china for awhile and married to a chinese citizen. |
The interesting thing is that, although the grammar is different, I've found that the huge number of loan words cause Chinese and Korean to reinforce one another, a non-trivial benefit given the vocabulary is probably the most difficult element of both languages for a Westerner. Korean definitely seems harder than Chinese though; I thought the tones would give me trouble, but compared to those bloody double consonants (which still sound almost identical to me) they're not that bad. |
I've found the double consonants to be pretty inconsequential in being understood. I've had more problem with 의 외 위 희 회 휘 and their change in pronunciation depending on their position within the word. I have no clue how to pronounce something like 의회. |
That's interesting. I've never heard that word said before, but I turned to Korean next to me, tried saying it, and she understood me fine and confirmed that I had pronounced it correctly. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: should i learn korean |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Alternatively: download Anki for free. Seriously, Anki is a total godsend for language learning. |
Seconded. I agree 100% with this. Anki is a great program and it can be tremendously useful for language learning.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
7) Its too hard to anchor. For some reason, the words just do not stick.
(eight) Too hard. In fact it is rated as the hardest language for westerners to learn.
9) Its useless. Unless you plan to live the rest of your life in Korea, then its simply not worth the effort. |
7 is a matter of experience. I vividly remember having someone say the word 회장실 to me 10 times and not being able to repeat it back. My mind just couldn't get a grip on these alien syllables. With time, you improve.
9 is increasingly less true in other countries, and think of the non-teaching job opportunities you would have if your Korean was good enough. And I mean real jobs, not posing on TV jobs. Who wouldn't like to get out of ESL and into something more satisfying? (And for those who wouldn't, please just take that as a rhetorical question.)
8 is the real reason people don't bother to learn Korean: the rest are just excuses and rationalizations.
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Most people who have been monolingual their whole life lose the ability to learn another language once they pass puberty. There are exceptions, but they are rare. For everyone else, it will take them a LONG time to learn the language...OR (a more likely senario) they will not learn it at all. How many lifers (living here since the 90s, married to a Korean, have a Korean kid or two, etc.) can speak Korean? Almost none at all. That should tell you something. |
Sorry, but that's rubbish. As babies we have the ability to acquire our first language or languages effortlessly and we lose that, but adults can and do learn second languages all the time. Adolescents may be better at memorizing and learning pronunciation, but full grown adults compensate by being better at abstract thought and contextualization.
| Fox wrote: |
| Korean definitely seems harder than Chinese though; I thought the tones would give me trouble, but compared to those bloody double consonants (which still sound almost identical to me) they're not that bad. |
Let's see if I can explain this right. The tongue should be tensed against whatever point of articulation you would use for the single consonant and then released, the same way you tense the index finger against your thumb when flicking something. So for ㄱ, the back of the tongue touches your palate near the back; for ㄲ, it does the same thing but you tense and release. The difference used to baffle me as well; now it's just a bit tricky.
However, I still have trouble distinguishing ㅜ from ㅗ from ㅓ sometimes, as well as final ㄴ from ㅇ. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How many lifers (living here since the 90s, married to a Korean, have a Korean kid or two, etc.) can speak Korean? Almost none at all. That should tell you something. |
Before all the regular lifers on here chime in with how fluent they are, I tend to agree with you from my experience. Having said that, virtually all the people I know who married Koreans have left the country so there's even less motivation than usual for them. The one guy I know who can speak Korean fluently can also speak a few other obscure languages pretty well. |
I know people that can and can't speak Korean well that are married with kids. The distinguishing factor in my experience is that those that can studied before they met their significant other. I haven't met anyone that started their relationship speaking English and then after marriage studied and practiced to a conversational level.
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When I met my wife I knew next to no Korean. Her English was half decent. We used English to communicate for that first year even if I did start to study. I became fluent over the years as I studied and practice. However, I know lots of westerners who studied Korean a bit before meeting their K-spouse and then stopped doing so as their spouse bascially translated everything when they were out and about. It does roll both ways. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
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I can empathise with your feeling but '우리 나라' just means 'Korea'
It is often said out of earshot to non-Koreans.
Dont misunderstand it. |
If you are someone like steelrails, then you can tell yourself if just means "Korea" but since it is often said out of earshot of non-Koreans, it means 'our country' and basically 'not yours' I always ask Koreans why they can't say "This Country" as it works in English...Without fail, the ones who defend 'our country' have to start talking about the Japanese invading the country.. I know that it's just an expression and it's not intrinsically evil, but I also ask about immigrants who come to this country and if they are allowed to say 'our country.' Few would say yes to that one. |
I think you missunderstand the meaning and significance of 우리 in general. Lots of westerners do make that mistake however. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| think you missunderstand the meaning and significance of 우리 in general. Lots of westerners do make that mistake however |
The same word can have different meanings for different people. Someone could call me the "N" word and I could get upset. Then you could come on here and say, "well I think you are misunderstanding it." What you are actually saying is, "don't take it the wrong way."
So when Koreans say "우리나라" they don't mean "ours."?? Foreigners are meant to be included in that statement? |
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Cymro
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Without drawing attention to the issue, I use '우리나라' and '우리말' in conversation myself in reference to Wales and Welsh. It confuses Koreans and makes them contemplate the meaning of the terms. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| postfundie wrote: |
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| think you missunderstand the meaning and significance of 우리 in general. Lots of westerners do make that mistake however |
The same word can have different meanings for different people. Someone could call me the "N" word and I could get upset. Then you could come on here and say, "well I think you are misunderstanding it." What you are actually saying is, "don't take it the wrong way."
So when Koreans say "우리나라" they don't mean "ours."?? Foreigners are meant to be included in that statement? |
They do mean ours but not necessarily as a put down towards you. That is where the confusion happens for a lot of us. The same thing happens with wayguk saram or wayguk in. In Korea it means something pretty neutral, however many of us take it personally or as some sort of clue that its an exclusion of some sort.
So 우리나라 can simply mean "Korea", it can also mean "our country" which in essence for a Korean it is. The starting point is different in English so of course confusion occurs.
You can of course choose to take it as some sort of insult or racist put down, that is entirely your call. Or can actually discuss this with Korean friends of yours and figure out where it comes from and how they mean it.
Let me provide a more personal example...
We have a son and a daughter. In English I will often refer to him as my son and seldom as our son. A person asks me is this your son, I will say yes he is my son.
Switch to Korean and it becomes 우리 아들 and almost never 내 아들. Why? because that is how Koreans view and refer to their family.
Another example, when my mother first visited Korea and I introduced her to my wifes parents, I refered to her as 우리 어머니. In English I would have said "this is my mother".
Nothing offensive is implied in this. |
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kyosuro
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I have worked at a university for the past three years that hires a very large number of English language teachers . Those of you that know Korea know which one it is (^60). At this university there is one, ONE, native English speaker who knows more than small talk, because it was their major at university, and even then, this person's ability has fossilized at the low-intermediate level. I leant this person three Korean DVDs a year and a a half ago and this person has yet to see all of them and return them. This person lives in an English bubble (does not actively try to understand the Korean language that s/he is hearing all the time). A few other Westerners working at this university who know basic small talk act like they're really good at Korean, and praise and overestimate each others' abilities. The rest of the English teachers don't know s*** so they believe that people who know basic small talk in Korean actually have communicative ability, and the fakers don't deny it. No. Small talk does not equal communicative competence in Korean. Anyone who is honest should be willing to admit this. Anyone?
In addition, the half and half Kyopos (born and raised in Korea, then moved to Western countries as young adults, then returned to Korea in their 30s-40s) are happy to let this delusion continue, because it gives them all the power in Korea. Men with Korean wives, ever wonder how much power your wife has because you don't have any Korean language competence? Does that ever bother you?
Learning Korean is tremendously hard as an adult, especially as a Westerner (easier for Japanese speakers). 99% of us don't know s***. Admit it. |
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