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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| lemak wrote: |
| As a 100kg male I personally enjoyed it. Where else on Earth can you get away with body checking a grandma or 25kg waif in high heels and have it considered thoroughly acceptable? Commendable even. Especially the public transport. Ends up like a full contact sport. You want the handicapped spot? Not on my watch, Gramps! |
Yeah, but sometimes they can get quite indignant if you do it to them. When in Rome...respect the Romans' right to stroll around oblivious, but don't try it yourself.
It's a bit like when driving. You are responsible for not colliding with anything in the zone in front of your vehicle; be prepared for people to pull out in front of you at any time. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| Dodge7 wrote: |
| I just can't understand the passive aggressive seating arrangement on the buses here. People intentionally sit on the outside so as to make it difficult for you to try and squeeze past them to get to the window seat. Just scoot over and let the person sit down. And in turn, when people have to get off at their stop, why should they have to squeeze past you again? Stand up and let the person comfortably get out of their seat!! I always stand up and let the window seat person get out easily, hopefully Koreans will see this and start a trend in my area. |
They don't want to sit over the wheel well. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
Yeah, but sometimes they can get quite indignant if you do it to them. When in Rome...respect the Romans' right to stroll around oblivious, but don't try it yourself.
It's a bit like when driving. You are responsible for not colliding with anything in the zone in front of your vehicle; be prepared for people to pull out in front of you at any time. |
Frackin right! Especially with young women. I've been broadsided by a few of these monsters while walking against a wall with nowhere to move , and received a couple shipseckies for my trouble.
Never once heard that from local to local; even last night when some dude nearly flattened a woman rushing to get off the bus before the door closed. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I spent many years in Seoul. That phenomenon baffled me for most of those years. I've been in Shanghai for the last 2 and rarely get the same from the general public. There is this posse/gaggle of Asian women however that send their kids off to an international school different to mine at the same time I'm going out to catch my schoolbus from our complex. They crowd the rather wide sidewalk around their kid's bus, making it almost impossible for anyone to pass, in a circle blowing hot air to eachother if still waiting for their lil' preciousnesses to go away on the bus and they walk shoulder to shoulder while still gabbing away when the lil' darlings have left. I did my best to avoid contact in the beginning and got some half-hearted apologies from them if they bumped into me, but I just walk through them these days. I don't have time for people like that. |
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lemak
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| I spent many years in Seoul. That phenomenon baffled me for most of those years. I've been in Shanghai for the last 2 and rarely get the same from the general public. |
Yeah the only time I notice it becomes something of a free for all are the big transfer stops like People's Square and East Nanjing Rd, but everyone kind of expects it. Can only imagine how many millions of people pass through those stops every day.
I was on the Great Wall at Badaling on a busy day a few years back and everyone managed to move seamlessly past one another. Some asshole thumped into me from behind and when I shoved him back he started yabbering away to some be-permed, high heeled, oompa loompa clacking along beside him like a clydesdale in Korean about the "waegookin".
I had to laugh. Something's definitely "up" when you make the Chinese look well mannered and civilized, lol.
I used to teach these shite Topia books in Korea where they actually "taught" that the locals are justified for bumping into others since the country is so crowded, and foreigners who think Koreans are rude for doing so must be racist and not understand the culture. Usual crap non-sensical explanation since it doesn't allow for the fact you can get around vastly more crowded cities in other countries, shoulder to shoulder market areas, and not even slightly get shoved (or if you do, at least earn a hurried apology). Not to mention walking down an empty street in a Korean city and have one person walking toward you who magically works their way into your path as if by magnet.
| Quote: |
| Yeah, but sometimes they can get quite indignant if you do it to them. When in Rome...respect the Romans' right to stroll around oblivious, but don't try it yourself. |
They drew first blood, sir. Easy enough to yap back at them. The average Korean seems far more sensitive to negative public attention than I ever was. Honestly though I don't really ever recall anyone giving me grief as a result of beating them at their own game. Likely when I was out of earshot, lol. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| lemak wrote: |
I used to teach these shite Topia books in Korea where they actually "taught" that the locals are justified for bumping into others since the country is so crowded, and foreigners who think Koreans are rude for doing so must be racist and not understand the culture. Usual crap non-sensical explanation since it doesn't allow for the fact you can get around vastly more crowded cities in other countries, shoulder to shoulder market areas, and not even slightly get shoved (or if you do, at least earn a hurried apology). Not to mention walking down an empty street in a Korean city and have one person walking toward you who magically works their way into your path as if by magnet.
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Not just Koreans use that excuse, but quite a few foreigners on this board. I supposed they do it to sound more worldly, but in the end they sound like some country bumpkin from Idaho who has never been in a city with over a million people before. Japan can handle it. Third world countries like Thailand and Vietnam can handle it. As you said, even the Chinese can handle it. Even parts of Europe and South America have the same population density as Korea and this isn't an issue (never mind cities in North America). Fine, it's part of the culture here, but then we get to scrutinize what that says about their culture. |
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Alum
Joined: 09 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| rambler wrote: |
| Personal space is important to westerners. It isn't something that folks consider here. They aren't being rude, they're just different than you. Respect that and get on with your day. |
That's very true. The bumping routine is constantly coming up in posts, year after year. I was in a country where the cashier literally threw your change down on the counter. There was no rudeness attached to it, it was just how people did it and never gave it a second thought.
However... I usually would just "roll with the punch" so to speak, but at times it was tiresome. So, I'd not "roll" but just remain firm�what they hit was not flexible but solid. They did not like this. I know, maybe poor behavior on my part, but to my way of thinking the old "it's our culture" doesn't hold water. How about beating students with sticks? "It's our culture"? How does that work? Some things are incidental, jung-yohaji or gwaenchanayo, but others, in what's becoming more and more a global society, need to adjust�
nevertheless, most always I "roll"... |
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Allthechildrenareinsane
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
Location: Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
Yes and no. Personal space and public manners aren't taught here. People aren't taught spacial awareness and seem to forget other people exist. But I disagree that this isn't an example of rude behavior because Koreans hate this shit too. It all depends on the context and situation, but I've heard plenty of Koreans mutter disapproval under their breath when somebody bumps into them. I've shoved people aside like I've been shoved and quickly realized people don't enjoy being shoved. But they do it anyway.
They don't even realize it either. There was a guy in the army I was close to but he was really bad at this. He would shove me out of the way and spread his legs into mine when sitting next to me. I shoved him out of the way once and he asked me why I just shoved him. I was like, "are you serious?" Completely oblivious to his own actions.
I've seen junior conscripts shove or cough in the faces of seniors and apologize when the offended senior point it out. I've also seen younger kids get kicked in the face for bumping into other students out of the way and not realizing they were upperclassmen. This tells me that yes, people know it and don't like it when they're the one being shoved or having their space invaded.
It even happens among family members. My family bump and push eachother out of the way all the time. My dad and aunt both this past holiday on two separate occasions shoved their feet into my body while stretching out their legs and they just left it there. So I was sitting there with a person pushing their feet into my body and it seemed they didn't even notice it until I moved out of the way. It was weird. I wanted to ask them why but I know I would offend them. I know for sure if I did the same to them they wouldn't enjoy it.
| Quote: |
| Anyway, my point is that even Koreans that have lived abroad (or perhaps even been raised abroad) seem to be unable to avoid bumping into other people. Why is this? Does the fact that many Koreans have poor eyesight have anything to do with it? |
Eyesight is a terrible excuse. My guess is that they wouldn't do it in the States but they adapt to Korea by acting like other Koreans. Heck you even have foreigners who admit they shove people out of the way. I've been pushed by white people a couple times too. When in Rome, right?
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| My favorite is the person who walks next to you, slightly behind you, then they quickly cut in front of you to get in to a building. Why they don't go behind me is anyone's guess. |
Or refuse to walk behind their friends in a narrow hallway or sidewalk and stubbornly walk beside them, making it harder for everybody to walk pass.
| Quote: |
| there is a tendancy in Asians to have a lack of periperihal vision. there is a name for this , it escapes me but it is very common in Asians. i will now be called a racist but it has been written about in medical journals. |
Doesn't explain why myself and so many other Asian Americans in the US don't shove people out of the way. Or why I've met so many Asian American newcomers to Korea complain about people shoving them out of the way or having their personal space invaded. I don't know if we really have less peripheral vision (I've never been not Asian so I can't compare) but we are physiologically capable of respecting other people's personal space. Honestly, that was a stupid explanation. |
I agree that the explanation for this is entirely cultural. On a side note, I'm wondering now if the culture's way of understanding what constitutes personal space might also partly explain the ludicrous driving in this country. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| On the other side of this coin, sometimes it is tedious having to be terribly polite all the time, making sure never to get in anyone's space, but it's kind of expected here in Canada, not sure people who haven't been abroad realize how ingrained it is. Smaller town would be easier probably. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| Dodge7 wrote: |
| I just can't understand the passive aggressive seating arrangement on the buses here. People intentionally sit on the outside so as to make it difficult for you to try and squeeze past them to get to the window seat. Just scoot over and let the person sit down. And in turn, when people have to get off at their stop, why should they have to squeeze past you again? Stand up and let the person comfortably get out of their seat!! I always stand up and let the window seat person get out easily, hopefully Koreans will see this and start a trend in my area. |
They don't want to sit over the wheel well. |
That only applies to four seats on the entire bus. The phenomenon is much more widespread than that. I take the bus twice every day and I've noticed this behavior every time. It has little to do with the wheel well. It has more to do with Koreans being, well,.....Koreans. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Alum wrote: |
| rambler wrote: |
| Personal space is important to westerners. It isn't something that folks consider here. They aren't being rude, they're just different than you. Respect that and get on with your day. |
That's very true. The bumping routine is constantly coming up in posts, year after year. I was in a country where the cashier literally threw your change down on the counter. There was no rudeness attached to it, it was just how people did it and never gave it a second thought. nevertheless, most always I "roll"... |
The times i haven't rolled have been met with wide-eyed shock by Koreans. Once I was getting bumped repeatedly by this couple on the subway..so I shoved them right to the other side of the carriage. they practically bounced off the doors.
Now..I'm not really proud of that because its very clear that in Koreans eyes they were doing nothing wrong at all.
But on the other hand it is an age of globalization and Koreans would benefit by learning western behavioural norms.
For the most part, all you can do is teach your students good habits and leave it at that. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest shift I have seen is how the behavior of the old ladies and the young ladies has flip-flopped. The first time I was in Korea, the way the older ladies would brazenly cut line or bulldoze their way through the subway was a little bit shocking at first. But the young women didn't do that. Fast forward to this year and it's the opposite. The older women are very patient, very polite, and display excellent manners now. But the behavior of the young women has become atrocious.
Take three incidents yesterday, for examples.
I was getting onto the subway and it was the initial station so all seats were empty. I was about to take a seat when a younger woman, in her twenties or thirties, pushed me out of the way and sat down. It was the seat on the end that Koreans covet.
The second incident was at the Dunkin Donuts outside of Sadang Station. I wanted a honey glazed chocolate donut and put it on my tray and sat it onto counter to pay, with my cash already out. A younger woman, in her twenties or thirties, quickly ran over the best she could in her high heels, put her tray with about a half dozen donuts on it onto the counter, pushing mine completely off of the counter. She handed the cashier a credit card. As I was picking up the tray, the tongs, and the donut off of the floor to put onto the top of the the glass donut case before getting a new tray, new tongs, and a new donut, I noticed how it all just seemed normal to everyone. Nobody seemed surprised. It's apparently the new normal.
The third incident also happened outside of Sadang Station. I must have just missed a 1500-2 bus because I ended up being first in line at the stop. It took an unusually long time for the next 1500-2 to arrive, so the line stretched much longer than usual. When the bus was pulling up, a young woman in her mid-twenties quickly ran past everyone who had been waiting and made it a point to be the first person to get onto the bus, pushing me out of the way so she could be the very first. All of the people, foreign and Korean alike, were nothing to her. She was more important than all of us.
I have been very impressed by the politeness and kindness of older Koreans during my current contract and very shocked by how the manners of young women have deteriorated. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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If they are engrossed in their smartphone, I give them the benefit of the doubt and that while they are being negligent, they aren't being deliberately rude.
If they are looking up and still walking into me, it's time for a good shoulder check.
The worst are the meanderers. I wonder how they do on sobriety tests... |
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highstreet
Joined: 13 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| EZE wrote: |
The biggest shift I have seen is how the behavior of the old ladies and the young ladies has flip-flopped. The first time I was in Korea, the way the older ladies would brazenly cut line or bulldoze their way through the subway was a little bit shocking at first. But the young women didn't do that. Fast forward to this year and it's the opposite. The older women are very patient, very polite, and display excellent manners now. But the behavior of the young women has become atrocious.
Take three incidents yesterday, for examples.
I was getting onto the subway and it was the initial station so all seats were empty. I was about to take a seat when a younger woman, in her twenties or thirties, pushed me out of the way and sat down. It was the seat on the end that Koreans covet.
The second incident was at the Dunkin Donuts outside of Sadang Station. I wanted a honey glazed chocolate donut and put it on my tray and sat it onto counter to pay, with my cash already out. A younger woman, in her twenties or thirties, quickly ran over the best she could in her high heels, put her tray with about a half dozen donuts on it onto the counter, pushing mine completely off of the counter. She handed the cashier a credit card. As I was picking up the tray, the tongs, and the donut off of the floor to put onto the top of the the glass donut case before getting a new tray, new tongs, and a new donut, I noticed how it all just seemed normal to everyone. Nobody seemed surprised. It's apparently the new normal.
The third incident also happened outside of Sadang Station. I must have just missed a 1500-2 bus because I ended up being first in line at the stop. It took an unusually long time for the next 1500-2 to arrive, so the line stretched much longer than usual. When the bus was pulling up, a young woman in her mid-twenties quickly ran past everyone who had been waiting and made it a point to be the first person to get onto the bus, pushing me out of the way so she could be the very first. All of the people, foreign and Korean alike, were nothing to her. She was more important than all of us.
I have been very impressed by the politeness and kindness of older Koreans during my current contract and very shocked by how the manners of young women have deteriorated. |
A woman knocks your tray of donuts off the counter and you didn't say anything? |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| highstreet wrote: |
| A woman knocks your tray of donuts off the counter and you didn't say anything? |
I just picked up the donut, the tongs, and the tray off of the floor, put them onto the donut case and got a new donut onto a new tray with a new set of tongs.
It wasn't worth saying anything over a donut then and receive a lecture on how this isn't my country. I already know I'm not Korean, so it would've been a waste of breath. |
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