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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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thebearofbundang
Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Location: Bundang
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 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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To sign up for the national health insurance is as simple as calling them and giving them your ID number. They do the calculations and send you the bill each month.They already know everything they need to know. The rate you pay depends on how much you make. If you get a raise after one year it will affect your health insurance rate. When negotiating with an employeer you have to take all of these things into account. You need to calcualte the cost of health insurance and other things before accepting an offer.
As an F6 visa holder, being an IC was the best option for me. It might not be the best for everyone. Afterschool programs paid mid threes for 4-5 hours of work a day, but you needed to cover your own insurance/housing (some of which you make back with the lower tax rate).
Again, my family was audited in 2008 and we were told all of our taxes/paperwork were in order. Take a job as an IC or don't, it's really upto you and what works best for your individual situation. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:39 am Post subject: |
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So to conclude regardless of you visa status as far as the ministry of labour is concerned if you have a boss, you work in one place, and you're treated like an employee you are in fact an employee with the benefits and protections that go with being employed in this country.
If it's better for you to be a contractor, be one. If you aren't given the choice then why not celebrate your 6 month anniversary with a visit to the labour office, the national health service and to the national pension service and celebrate in style.
BTW I don't recommend doing any drinking or even doing anything other than work for that first 3 months until you can get national health coverage.
Good luck. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:54 am Post subject: Re: half of Korean employees are IC's according to ontheway |
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| Mr Lee's Monkey wrote: |
The tax, legal, and ethical issues are all relevant in this thread. I am specifically asking ontheway to show proof that, as he alleges, half the Korean work force is comprised of IC's. He can't prove it, because it isn't a fact. He is using misinformation to bolster an argument for exploitation. Some here may choose to be an IC. The strongest defense of being one in this thread ends with the poster suggesting that maybe his school will throw him some extra cash. That doesn't sound like it's necessarily legal or desirable. Some among us are not mercenaries, and prefer the legit way of doing things.
If an individual wants to sign up for national health insurance, they must intend to be in country for at least three months. Can someone clarify what you are talking about in terms of a three month waiting period to be eligible for health care? |
The information came from the National Pension website where they report approximately half of all Korean workers are registered in a group including ICs (which in Korea is actually more akin to casual labor plus IC in the western sense), self employed, and family members working in a family business so that none are regular full-time employees. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
So to conclude regardless of you visa status as far as the ministry of labour is concerned if you have a boss, you work in one place, and you're treated like an employee you are in fact an employee with the benefits and protections that go with being employed in this country.
Good luck. |
Not accurate. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:02 am Post subject: Re: half of Korean workers are IC's according to ontheway |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
I refer you to article 9 of the National Pension Act of Korea, the only people exempt from indivividual contributions other than those covered by their workplace are:
| Quote: |
1. Non-income spouses of persons falling under one of the following items:
(a) Persons excluded from the coverage of the National Pension Scheme under the
proviso of Article 6;
(b) Workplace-based or Individually Insured Persons, or Voluntarily &
Continuously Insured Persons;
(c) Employees of a Special Post Office;
(d) Beneficiaries of the Old-age Pension or beneficiaries of the retirement pension,
etc.; and
2. Beneficiaries of the retirement pension, etc.;
3. Persons aged from eighteen to less than twenty-seven who are in school or
military service, etc. and have no income (excluding those who have ever paid
contributions);
4. Pensioners under the National Basic Living Security Act; and
5. Persons who have been missing for over one year. In this case, the recognition
criteria and the confirmation method regarding the missing person shall be
determined by the Presidential Decree. |
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Ah, You don't understand what you have read Big Fella.
You see, this tells you who is exempt altogether from paying in to the National Pension scheme.
However, what you fail to grasp is that those who are employees must be registered and paid by their employer, and those who are in the Independent catagory must register and pay themselves.
The list you are quoting and confused by comprises those individuals who do not have to register or pay regardless of whether they are an employee, Independent, unemployed or whatever because they are totally exempt. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
Of course registering as an IC is not in itself illegal but registering as an IC when you work full time for a company as an employee is. Why? Because you and your company are lying on the tax forms.
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Not accurate. In fact this assertion itself is a lie.
You can legally be an IC in Korea while working at one workplace. In fact, you can legally be an IC in the US with only one workplace.
It is not necessary to lie on any form to be an IC at one workplace in Korea. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
If you work for multiple employers in multiple locations, then you are an independent contractor. To do this legally you need Korean citizenship, or an F2, F4,F5, F6, E5, or E7 visa. Good luck getting the last 2 to teach English.
If you work in one location with a boss then you are an employee.
Ontheway claims that this is legal under tax law, I don't know.
It is illegal under labour law, the national health act and national pension act. |
Not accurate. Why? Because only the tax office gets to set the rules for who is an IC. National Pension, National Health Ins. and Labor have no say because it is not under their jurisdiction to decide - they must follow the tax office. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| big_fella1 wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
It is legal to work as an IC because the Tax office makes the rules. Only the Tax office can make the rules. The Labor office and Immigration cannot - it is out of their jurisdiction. There is nothing in obtaining the E2 visa that requires that the sponsor of the visa be an employer. The IC relationship satisfies Immigration requirements. It isn't up to Immigration - it's up to the Tax office.
So, it is perfectly legal for an E2 visa holder to be an Independent Contractor.
It is also perfectly legal to be an IC while working at only one location on a single contract. This is true in the US as well. Having only one contract doesn't suddenly turn that into an employer/employee relationship.
In Korea the rules for being an IC are still very loose and unlikely to change.
Many posters here are trying to make up their own law. You cannot change what is.
In Korea, at the presnt time, it is perfectly legal for an E2 teacher to work at a single location with hours set by the school and still be legally registered as an Independent Contractor.
None of your wishes, dreams, personal feelings about the word "independent" (it's different that the Korean in any case) or personal feeling that somehow Labor or Immigration can make rules they are legally prohibited from making, or the way things are in your home country and therefore should be in Korea - have any impact on the reality of being a legal IC in Korea.
However, for anyone who is working as an IC and is not self-registered for National Health Insurance and National Pension - you are NOT a legal IC unless you sign yourself up for these things. |
Wow you used big letters, I must be wrong.
The again maybe not.
I suggest that you stop using big letters and provide some evidence.
If you read:
http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com/2010/11/audit-proof-your-independent-contractor.html
You will find dodgy independent contractor arrangements are not legal in the US or Korea no matter what your visa or citizenship.
I will accept the evidence in English or Korean, or even Hanja if that's what it's written in. I look forward to a debate without big letters.
i.e. It's time put up or shut up, please. |
I suggest that you check out your own link. It is written entirely from a US perspective. It states that you should look at how things work in the US for ICs to protect yourself precisely because the author apparently knows nothing about Korea.
The point the author makes is this: If you are an American businessperson, you can protect yourself by going by the US rules. Since they are more strict than the Korean rules you should be safe.
However, we are in Korea. We can go by the Korean rules.
Score for you is zero.
Korea has different rules from the US. Part of the confusion is that the Korean law doesn't just include what we think of as "Independent" workers, but other kinds of casual, part time and temporary workers. In Korea half of all workers are working under IC rules. The overwhelming majority work in a single location for one entity.
For Korean schools utilizing IC teachers, however, they should not prevent the teacher from taking additional teaching contract positions with other schools. Having an IC who merely chooses not to enter into another contract is legal and different from a contractual provision or administrative policy that prohibits the IC from taking another contract with another school, which could jeopardize the legality of the IC status. |
This is a better link because it makes it clear that the atty in question is not discussing the same issue at all.
First of all, this is a blog intended to drum up business for a law firm and not to give legal advice, hence the general nature of the discussion, the lack of any legal basis or case references. Since the atty in question gives information only from a US perspective and without regard to the actual details of the actual case he refers to obliquely, it's clear that he's attempting to drum up business without any particular expertise in the subject area.
The one case involving a large Korean firm that was reported dealing with an issue of Independent Contractor status was not about individual workers.
The case being referenced involved the subsidiary of a large corporation working for the Parent corporation of the subsidiary as an Independent contractor as a method to avoid compliance with a union contract that affected the workers of the Parent corporation but not the subsidary.
This scheme to avoid the union contract was deemed improper.
The case being referenced has nothing to do with our discussion here. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| big_fella1 wrote: |
If you work for multiple employers in multiple locations, then you are an independent contractor. To do this legally you need Korean citizenship, or an F2, F4,F5, F6, E5, or E7 visa. Good luck getting the last 2 to teach English.
If you work in one location with a boss then you are an employee.
Ontheway claims that this is legal under tax law, I don't know.
It is illegal under labour law, the national health act and national pension act. |
Not accurate. Why? Because only the tax office gets to set the rules for who is an IC. National Pension, National Health Ins. and Labor have no say because it is not under their jurisdiction to decide - they must follow the tax office. |
Where is your source??????
Lets keep it simple:
The tax service enforces tax law.
The national pension service enforces the pension act.
The national health service enforces national health insurance.
and
The ministry of labour enforces the labour standards act
You are yet to produce a single piece of evidence even though you constantly criticise mine. We know why you don't produce any evidence it's because the stand that you're taking is morally and legally wrong.
Treating Korean staff in this way is wrong, but bringing some kid halfway around the world and putting them in a position where they can't even get health insurance for 3 months so a company can save a couple of bucks is disgusting.
I do love the way you manage to pull information from your butt and sound so condescending when you do so.
It's this condescending tone that keeps me engaged in the debate.
Should I see contract work that is interesting or high paying I sometimes do that too. But I'm not on an E2, and when I do contract work, I choose my clients and I don't have a boss i.e. I am an independent contractor.
I ask you again for a source. Just one source that says you are right.
It doesnt even have to be in English.
Just a shred of evidence that your condescending tone has a legitimate source.
BTW Do own a hagwon or do you work for one?
If you work for one are you an employee or an independent contractor? If you're an IC please pm me, as I would really like to help you. I'll recommend a good labour lawyer and someone to help you overcome Stockholm Syndrome. |
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