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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm the last person to condone interview questions based on race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation etc. I remember when I was interviewed for my first job in Korea (public school) one of the questions was about my sexuality.
I'm straight but I refused to answer the question and I told the interviewer that in the UK and other countries like it, questions about whether someone is gay or not would never be asked for any job except one that needed a person experienced in dealing with gay issues and communities. I still got the job but it was the correct thing to tell the interviewer that their question was unnecessary.
However, questions about age, marital status, kids, if you're vegetarian as that would make it difficult to eat school lunch, etc are relevant to both public school and hagwon jobs whether we like it or not. You're not likely to get a small place to live if you are married and if you have kids then maybe it's going to be too difficult for the school or hagwon to find accommodation suitable for you all.
Age is crucial in all Asian cultures and some others like African and Middle Eastern. The Koreans are obsessed with age and what this means for lines of communication etc so I don't see it as rude if they ask candidates for English teaching jobs how old they are. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| It's not 'insulting' to ask job applicants their age, if they're married, have kids, have any conditions that might be undesirable in Korea and not so long ago in our countries it was fine to ask those questions too. |
There's a reason those questions aren't fine in our home countries anymore. That reason is because they have nothing to do with the job.
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| You have to remember that a person who is married/has kids will need extra space, |
No, they won't. And the school isn't going to provide anything extra, anyway.
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| extra requirements for living that an employer might not be in a position to provide or might not want to provide. A single person is less time spent on living arrangements etc. |
A lot of accompanied foreigners live in the same style as Koreans with their spouses.
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| Our countries are ageist too - they just disguise it better. Personally I don't think in some circumstances it's in any way discriminatory to want to know the age of an applicant especially if experience of some yrs is needed or if it's an entry level position where they want to give a young person a chance. |
Of course it's discriminatory to base one's hiring decison on the applicant's age. Years on the job =/= age. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| I'm the last person to condone interview questions based on race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation etc. |
Race: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Ethnicity: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Religion: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Sexual orientation: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
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| I remember when I was interviewed for my first job in Korea (public school) one of the questions was about my sexuality. |
I cannot think of a single valid--heck, I can't think of a single reason why the interviewer would ask you that question.
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| I'm straight but I refused to answer the question and I told the interviewer that in the UK and other countries like it, questions about whether someone is gay or not would never be asked for any job except one that needed a person experienced in dealing with gay issues and communities. |
I don't think that's even a good reason to ask that question. "Do you have experience in dealing with gay issues and communities" is, of course, a valid question for that kind of job. It's certainly not a valid question for a job teaching English.
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| I still got the job but it was the correct thing to tell the interviewer that their question was unnecessary. |
Not only was the question unnecessary, it was out of bounds. And it wasn't even an intelligent question to ask for the job for which you were interviewing.
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| However, questions about age, marital status, kids, if you're vegetarian as that would make it difficult to eat school lunch, etc are relevant to both public school and hagwon jobs whether we like it or not. |
No, they're actually not.
Age: no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Vegetarian: no bearing on the ability to do the job. Also, it just means that you won't be eating the slop at the school cafeteria. I'm vegetarian and I had no problem with not eating at the school cafeteria. I'd either simply not eat lunch at the school or I'd "brown bag" my lunch from home.
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| You're not likely to get a small place to live if you are married and if you have kids then maybe it's going to be too difficult for the school or hagwon to find accommodation suitable for you all. |
Now this is a valid concern. But it really isn't the school's problem and somehow I doubt the school will make it their problem. It's up to the candidate to decide if he'll accept the position while at the same time getting just a small place or just getting the housing allowance and then paying the difference him/herself.
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| Age is crucial in all Asian cultures and some others like African and Middle Eastern. The Koreans are obsessed with age and what this means for lines of communication etc so I don't see it as rude if they ask candidates for English teaching jobs how old they are. |
It's not just rude. It's discriminatory, especially when the candidate is told, "You are too old to do this job." That's not respecting age, now is it? |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
| I'm the last person to condone interview questions based on race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation etc. |
Race: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Ethnicity: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Religion: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Sexual orientation: has absolutely no bearing on the ability to do the job.
| Quote: |
| I remember when I was interviewed for my first job in Korea (public school) one of the questions was about my sexuality. |
I cannot think of a single valid--heck, I can't think of a single reason why the interviewer would ask you that question.
| Quote: |
| I'm straight but I refused to answer the question and I told the interviewer that in the UK and other countries like it, questions about whether someone is gay or not would never be asked for any job except one that needed a person experienced in dealing with gay issues and communities. |
I don't think that's even a good reason to ask that question. "Do you have experience in dealing with gay issues and communities" is, of course, a valid question for that kind of job. It's certainly not a valid question for a job teaching English.
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| I still got the job but it was the correct thing to tell the interviewer that their question was unnecessary. |
Not only was the question unnecessary, it was out of bounds. And it wasn't even an intelligent question to ask for the job for which you were interviewing.
| Quote: |
| However, questions about age, marital status, kids, if you're vegetarian as that would make it difficult to eat school lunch, etc are relevant to both public school and hagwon jobs whether we like it or not. |
No, they're actually not.
Age: no bearing on the ability to do the job.
Vegetarian: no bearing on the ability to do the job. Also, it just means that you won't be eating the slop at the school cafeteria. I'm vegetarian and I had no problem with not eating at the school cafeteria. I'd either simply not eat lunch at the school or I'd "brown bag" my lunch from home.
| Quote: |
| You're not likely to get a small place to live if you are married and if you have kids then maybe it's going to be too difficult for the school or hagwon to find accommodation suitable for you all. |
Now this is a valid concern. But it really isn't the school's problem and somehow I doubt the school will make it their problem. It's up to the candidate to decide if he'll accept the position while at the same time getting just a small place or just getting the housing allowance and then paying the difference him/herself.
| Quote: |
| Age is crucial in all Asian cultures and some others like African and Middle Eastern. The Koreans are obsessed with age and what this means for lines of communication etc so I don't see it as rude if they ask candidates for English teaching jobs how old they are. |
It's not just rude. It's discriminatory, especially when the candidate is told, "You are too old to do this job." That's not respecting age, now is it? |
I don't disagree with nearly all of your points about why there are some questions that shouldn't be asked by Koreans or other interviewers. I think the question about my sexuality (which of course was ridiculous and unnecessary) was probably to do with the last male teacher being gay and not being liked by the school.
You know, the Koreans do like to put everybody in a group so we are all responsible for other foreigners' behaviour regardless of whether we know them or not, whether we come from their country or not etc. I'm guessing that this question was because of that - they didn't like their last teacher who was probably gay and so were generalising about him.
As I stated I am the last to condone those kinds of questions. Condone means of course to think that they are okay - I don't know why you repeated the points because it was clear I was saying that race etc are off limits in interview questions.
I've had friends who had their original degrees (when you had to give them) kept under lock and key by their public school until I told them to march into the office and demand them as in effect the school had no right to keep their teachers' property. One woman was told that "It's the rule because there was a teacher before who did a midnight run".
Offensive? Of course and she was being lumped into the category of possible midnight runner because once before a native English teacher did that. Discriminatory? Of course.
Do I agree with (condone) how Koreans do this? Of course not. My point about native English teachers possiby having spouses and dependents and so the school might want to know for genuine reasons of making arrangements is valid. One of the neighbouring public schools when I did my 2nd public school job had a married American and he and his wife were put in a proper apartment, not a one room.
Yeah, I wish I had been put in a proper apartment instead of the usual trashy one room by my school but the fact is his school gave him some respect by giving him and his wife enough space.
As for age, yeah, some schools want older people who have already had experience handling kids in classrooms. I don't see anything wrong with a school looking for experience as long as it is not offensive in its questioning or its attitude to other teachers.
And as somebody who is experienced although not that old I also never have agreed with the comments made by Koreans to older teachers along the lines of "You're too old, you can't work in Seoul".
Or if a school sees a teacher as too young then they also don't have to express that in a rude way but I can't regard any school looking for experience and not wanting a young inexperienced teacher as always discriminatory. Same as I can't regard any school looking for a young teacher to fill a basic position that is not seen to require experience as always discriminatory.
And I have absolutely no time for the whole obsession with 'no fat people' etc although I couldn't be called fat by anybody. However, Koreans and some other cultures do not share our concepts of what is discriminatory.
In hagwons they're always thinking of their customers and Korean customers will usually decide what is acceptable regardless of equal opportunity laws back in our home countries. In public schools unfortunately appearances including body type are also an issue because you cannot pretend that hagwons and public schools automatically think differently. Yes we know public schools shouldn't have this mentality but plenty of the staff there do have it.
It's not just parents. Public school staff will talk about how a 'fat' or 'strange' native English teacher will 'distract' the students - and it's not right but did you know that the senior Korean teachers at public school will often chip away at young/new Korean teachers if they wear something flashy or 'distracting'?
Again this is not my way of thinking but the reality is there are ingrained Korean ways of thinking that are going to be unreasonable to us and will take time to change if they ever do.
I think western countries are incredibly hypocritical about ageism,etc, they discriminate all the time while paying lip service to equal opportunity laws.
They discriminate while proclaiming they are not. The Koreans (again like other Asian countries, African, Middle Eastern) openly show their preoccupation with age, like it or not.
Last edited by earthquakez on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:59 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:39 pm Post subject: Double post mods please delete |
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| Edited because double post |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I think age does have a bearing on your ability to do a job to be honest. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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The questions are rude and crass but they are relevant. If I was interviewing someone for a position in Korea I might ask them the same things, but only because if they can't handle them they shouldn't come here. I wouldn't refuse them a job over it though.
They aren't just interviewing people to come to a 9 to 5, they are asking them to change their residence to a foreign country that has different standards of etiquette. There is a lot of money being invested too, so they are going to have to consider who is likely to pull a runner and who is not. I'm a little annoyed at the questions too but I can understand where they are coming from.
I would say the epik interview I had was probably the most unprofessional I have had in my life. I'm pretty sure the girl was smacking gum in the background, and she had this style of lecturing me while at the same time sounding like she didn't care about anything. It gave me a good idea of what some of my experiences would be when I arrived in Korea, and for that I thank her! |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that really shocked me lately is so many public schools are demanding in person interviews for applicants in country.
"Oh you live three hours away? Come to the school for an interview if you want to be considered."
(In person face to face makes the questions discussed above feel even more uncomfortable and awkward.) |
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Lucas
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| "Oh you live three hours away? Come to the school for an interview if you want to be considered." |
Heavens forbid! 
What next - teach a small open class? Make a lesson plan (without spell checker) be interviewed by co-workers?
How dare they! |
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nora
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
We're not talking about hakwan jobs here, people. We're talking about interviews conducted by employees of provincial education offices and applicants being flatly told that race matters, in a negative and demeaning way. Since we've all read that it happens every day in Korea during the hiring process then we do know that it happens. No one is denying that fact. But it hit home for me when it happened to a friend who should have had no problem finding a public school teaching job.
There's no justification for it. It's just so discouraging. |
Again, link? Every black English teacher I've known in Korea has worked for public schools, and not a single one has said anything along the lines of facing those kind of questions or attitudes from their employers.
Link for something recent, or is this just a "i heard someone said" kind of thing? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:58 am Post subject: |
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I can understand some Korean. (I'm not very good; however, I'm better than most lifers.)
I was in a recruiter's office. The position to be filled was public school.
The principal (or whoever was doing the hiring) asked a question (which I couldn't hear because my ear wasn't next to the phone receiver). The recruiter answered I was a white person (백인). |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| nora wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
We're not talking about hakwan jobs here, people. We're talking about interviews conducted by employees of provincial education offices and applicants being flatly told that race matters, in a negative and demeaning way. Since we've all read that it happens every day in Korea during the hiring process then we do know that it happens. No one is denying that fact. But it hit home for me when it happened to a friend who should have had no problem finding a public school teaching job.
There's no justification for it. It's just so discouraging. |
Again, link? Every black English teacher I've known in Korea has worked for public schools, and not a single one has said anything along the lines of facing those kind of questions or attitudes from their employers.
Link for something recent, or is this just a "i heard someone said" kind of thing? |
I don't have "a link" to prove that it happened to a close friend. But it did and let's just say that it doesn't make any sense. |
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Times30
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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It's not just Korean schools,
Its like every job, including the NA has a set of bizarre questions that they think are relevant to their corporate culture. Korean schools tend to focus on the culture differences because it's the most obvious hindrance to adapting well to their internal corporate culture. You're different, but can you blend?
I was once interviewed at this hippy, new age, IT corporation. Me being the conservative square really didn't fit in. And their questions were like "what's your favorite movie? How much time do you spend with plants? Do you enjoy cartoons?
All these questions I thought were ridiculous and had nothing to do with the job. But they had created a corporate culture in which I couldn't survive if I couldn't adapt to it.
To us, these questions might seem off and insulting, but keep in mind, what do they really know about us? I know people ask Korean people the most mundane questions like, "Oh Korea, do you know gangnam style?"
Stuff like that. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
]We're not talking about hakwan jobs here, people. We're talking about interviews conducted by employees of provincial education offices and applicants being flatly told that race matters, in a negative and demeaning way. Since we've all read that it happens every day in Korea during the hiring process then we do know that it happens. No one is denying that fact. But it hit home for me when it happened to a friend who should have had no problem finding a public school teaching job.
There's no justification for it. It's just so discouraging. |
"happened to a friend" does not equate to "happens every day"
The link comment someone made above might have been possibly referring to the second phrase I quoted. |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| dairyairy wrote: |
]We're not talking about hakwan jobs here, people. We're talking about interviews conducted by employees of provincial education offices and applicants being flatly told that race matters, in a negative and demeaning way. Since we've all read that it happens every day in Korea during the hiring process then we do know that it happens. No one is denying that fact. But it hit home for me when it happened to a friend who should have had no problem finding a public school teaching job.
There's no justification for it. It's just so discouraging. |
"happened to a friend" does not equate to "happens every day"
The link comment someone made above might have been possibly referring to the second phrase I quoted. |
It's been well-covered in the Korean and international media. |
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