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ajosshi
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Location: ajosshi.com
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:28 am Post subject: The New Pope: Bergoglio of Argentina |
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VATICAN CITY � With a puff of white smoke from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel and to the cheers of thousands of rain-soaked faithful, a gathering of Catholic cardinals picked a new pope from among their midst on Wednesday � choosing the cardinal from Argentina, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the first leader of the church ever chosen from South America.
The new pope, 76, who will be called Francis, the 266th pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church, is also the first non-European leader of the church in more than 1,000 years.
The new pope was announced on the white balcony on the front of St. Peter�s Basilica as thousands of the faithful cheered joyously below.
�Habemus papam!,� members of the crowd shouted in Latin, waving umbrellas and flags. �We have a pope!� Others cried �Viva il Papa!�
�It was like waiting for the birth of a baby, only better, " said a Roman man. A child sitting atop his father�s shoulders waved a crucifix.
Francis is the first pope not born in Europe since Columbus alighted in the New World. In choosing him, the cardinals sent a powerful message that the future of the Church lies in the Global South, home to the bulk of the world�s Catholics. One of Benedict�s abiding preoccupations was the rise of secularism in Europe, and he took the name Benedict after the founder of European monastic culture.
The new pope inherits a church wrestling with an array of challenges that intensified during his predecessor, Benedict XVI � from a priest shortage and growing competition from evangelical churches in the Southern Hemisphere where most of the world�s Catholics live, to a sexual abuse crisis that has undermined the church�s moral authority in the West, to difficulties governing the Vatican itself.
Benedict abruptly ended his troubled eight-year papacy last month, announcing he was no longer up to the rigors of the job. He became the first pontiff in 598 years to resign. The 115 cardinals who are under the age of 80 and eligible to vote chose their new leader after two days of voting.
Before beginning the voting by secret ballot in the Sistine Chapel on Tuesday, in a cloistered meeting known as a conclave, the cardinals swore an oath of secrecy in Latin, a rite designed to protect deliberations from outside scrutiny � and to protect cardinals from earthly influence as they seek divine guidance.
The conclave followed more than a week of intense, broader discussions among the world�s cardinals where they discussed the problems facing the church and their criteria for its next leader.
�We spoke among ourselves in an exceptional and free way, with great truth, about the lights, but also about shadows in the current situation of the Catholic Church,� Cardinal Christoph Sch�nborn of Vienna, a theologian known for his intellect and his pastoral touch, told reporters earlier this week.
�The pope�s election is something substantially different from a political election,� Cardinal Sch�nborn said, adding that the role was not �the chief executive of a multinational company, but the spiritual head of a community of believers.�
Indeed, Benedict was selected in 2005 as a caretaker after the momentous papacy of John Paul II, but the shy theologian appeared to show little inclination toward management. His papacy suffered from crises of communications � with Muslims, Jews and Anglicans � that, along with a sex abuse crisis that raged back to life in Europe in 2010, evolved into a crisis of governance.
Critics of Benedict�s secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said he had difficulties in running the Vatican and appeared more interested in the Vatican�s ties to Italy than to the rest of the world. The Vatican is deeply concerned about the fate of Christians in the war-torn Middle East.
The new pope will also inherit power struggles over the management of the Vatican bank, which must continue a process of meeting international transparency standards or risk being shut out of the mainstream international banking system. In one of his final acts as pope, Benedict appointed a German aristocrat, Ernst von Freyberg, as the bank�s new president.
He will have to help make the Vatican bureaucracy � often seen as a hornet�s nest of infighting Italians � work more efficiently for the good of the church. After years in which Benedict and John Paul helped consolidate more power at the top, many liberal Catholics also hope that the next pope will also give local bishops� conferences more decision-making power to help respond to the needs of the faithful.
The reform of the Roman Curia, which runs the Vatican, �is not conceptually hard, it�s hard on a political front but it will take five minutes for someone who has the strength. You get rid of the spoil system and that�s it,� said Alberto Melloni, the author of numerous books on the Vatican and the Second Vatican Council. The hard things are �if you want a permanent consultation of bishops� conferences,� he added.
For Mr. Melloni, foreign policy and the church�s vision of Asia would be crucial to the next pope. �If Roman Catholicism was capable of learning Greek while it was speaking Aramaic, of learning Celtic while it was speaking Latin, now it either has to learn Chinese or �ciao,'� he said, using the Italian world for �goodbye.�
Ahead of the election of a new pope, cardinals said they were looking for �a pope that understands the problems of the Church at present� and who is strong enough to tackle them, said Cardinal Miloslav Vlk, the archbishop emeritus of Prague who participated in the general congregations but was not eligible to vote in a conclave.
He said those problems included reforming the Roman Curia, handling the pedophilia crisis and cleaning up the Vatican bank, which has been working to meet international transparency standards.
�He needs to be capable of solving these issues,� Cardinal Vlk said as he walked near the Vatican this week, adding that the next pope needs �to be open to the world, to the troubles of the world, to society, because evangelization is a primary task, to bring the Gospel to people.�
The sex abuse crisis remains a troubling issue for the church, especially in English-speaking countries where victims sued dioceses found to have moved around abusive priests.
On Wednesday, news reports in California showed that one cardinal elector, Cardinal Roger M. Mahony, the former archbishop of Los Angeles, the diocese and an ex-priest had reach a settlement of almost $10 million in four child sexual abuse cases, according to the victims� lawyers.
Becoming pope also has a human dimension. In one of his final speeches as pope before he retired on Feb. 18, Benedict said that his successor would need to be prepared to lose some of his privacy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/14/world/europe/cardinals-elect-new-pope.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0 |
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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It's mildly interesting that, even choosing someone from outside of Europe, they managed to find the son of an Italian immigrant. Those tricky Italians.
Unfortunately, he's another one of these fellows who thinks one of the Catholic Church's core missions is to harass homosexuals and advocate for governmental discrimination against them. That's simply irreconcilable with western culture at this point; they just don't understand that their moral position -- even if it were to be right! -- has no bearing on what the rights of citizens under secular law should be. This goes double for opposing birth control. The Catholic Church should save its sexual demands for its laity as individuals, and make the focus of its political lobbying economic and social justice. Those are good messages, and moreover, a more fair economic system and a stronger safety net is far more likely to cause people to act in accordance with Catholic reproductive teachings than scolding them. Instead it looks like they're doubling down on past behavior and consigning themselves to de facto status as "Third World Christianity." |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Unfortunately, he's another one of these fellows who thinks one of the Catholic Church's core missions is to harass homosexuals and advocate for governmental discrimination against them. That's simply irreconcilable with western culture at this point; they just don't understand that their moral position -- even if it were to be right! -- has no bearing on what the rights of citizens under secular law should be. |
I think you expect too much. If he "reform[s] the Roman Curia, handl[es] the sexual abuse crisis and clean[s] up the Vatican bank" he'll be a success. I wish him luck, let this be a new start for the Catholic Church. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Unfortunately, he's another one of these fellows who thinks one of the Catholic Church's core missions is to harass homosexuals and advocate for governmental discrimination against them. That's simply irreconcilable with western culture at this point; they just don't understand that their moral position -- even if it were to be right! -- has no bearing on what the rights of citizens under secular law should be. This goes double for opposing birth control. The Catholic Church should save its sexual demands for its laity as individuals, and make the focus of its political lobbying economic and social justice. Those are good messages, and moreover, a more fair economic system and a stronger safety net is far more likely to cause people to act in accordance with Catholic reproductive teachings than scolding them. Instead it looks like they're doubling down on past behavior and consigning themselves to de facto status as "Third World Christianity." |
Fox, you dislike that the Pope is Catholic. |
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure anyone actually can handle the "sex abuse crisis." Given what the Catholic Church is supposed to be, it's honestly almost unforgivable. When a secular institution is rocked by such a scandal, that obstructs its purpose; when a moral institution is rocked by such a scandal, it contradicts its purpose.
The real irony of the Catholic Church is that I've always had a feeling that the laity is ethically superior to the Church itself; in my personal experience, individual (American) Catholics are frequently excellent people, while the clergy, well... |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| GF you gonna post or what. I don't know what to think of the new Pope. What's my opinion? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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I have to agree with Fox. The new boss is same as the old boss.
He is supposedly concerned about the poor, but let's see the RCC doing something to actually help the poor and not just asking their congregations for donations. Let's see them sell off some of their real estate holdings. Let's see priests living in conditions more closely resembling those of their parishioners. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Let's see them sell off some of their real estate holdings. |
Why would the church do that? Or must one act poor to feel for the poor? Do I have to sell my apartment for cred? |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2013/03/13/pope-francis/
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Many of us non-RC traditionalist all over the world had awaited the news from Rome with some trepidation. In the end it turned out to be rather good. Pope Francis, the first non-European Bishop of Rome since Gregory III (d. 741), is universally described as �modest� and �moderate��which is much preferred to the dreaded �bold� or �courageous,� in the sense that those words are used by the global media.
�He lives like a monk in a small apartment, travels by bus, and detests all vanity,� Metropolitan Amfilohije of Montenegro told me when he heard the news. His Grace has visited Buenos Aires repeatedly in recent years as the Orthodox Diocesan Administrator, but he has not met Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, who was mostly in Rome on those occasions. �I�ve heard from many local people, however, both lay and clergy, that he radiates a burning faith,� says the Metropolitan and adds that his simplicity and compassion for the poor go hand in hand with doctrinal firmness. |
xxx
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| Among the congratulatory messages sent to Francis, the one from France�s President Francois Hollande was remarkable for its cold, Christophobic rudeness. Hollande said that France, �faithful to its universal principles of liberty, equality and fraternity,� would continue its �dialogue� with the Holy See for �peace, justice, solidarity and human dignity.� |
Yeah go bomb some more Arabs you degenerate piece of $hit. |
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GF
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| GF you gonna post or what. I don't know what to think of the new Pope. What's my opinion? |
I only heard of him 10 days ago, so I don't know much more than you. There are images, floating around the web, of him being "blessed" by Protestant ministers, and participating in other shameless ecumenical events with Jews and so forth. He always celebrates the new mass, and from what I've gathered, has acted in his archdiocese to suppress the traditional Tridentine form.
In fact, I don't trust him. Given my understanding of the Church crisis since Vatican II, I am hardly going to rush to defend his Catholicity against people like Fox.
On the other hand, I read this somewhere:
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Good points:
1. Says that the gay rights movement is "demonic in origin".
2. When writing in defense of marriage and the family, said that the opposing forces were guided by the "father of lies".
3. Called by Argentina's liberal President (de Kirchner) "medieval" and reminded her of the Spanish Inquisition.
4. Accused of complicity with the Commie-stomping program called Operation Condor.
5. Wrote officially that those who speak or act against the Church's position on abortion and euthanasia, esp. politicians, are not to receive the Eucharist. |
To sum up, I am shall we say "minimally hopeful" for this papacy. If you run across anything significant, please let me know. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Let's see them sell off some of their real estate holdings. |
Why would the church do that? Or must one act poor to feel for the poor? Do I have to sell my apartment for cred? |
Why does the church need real estate? You need an apartment to live in. You do realize I'm not talking about churches, that I'm talking about real estate as an investment.
Besides which, charity is a fundamental precept of Christianity. And then, how can you ask others to give when you don't? |
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GF
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| That's simply irreconcilable with western culture at this point; they just don't understand that their moral position -- even if it were to be right! -- has no bearing on what the rights of citizens under secular law should be. |
If the teachings are true, then they are absolute, and the civil law must do its utmost to uphold them. �Secular law� can�t be pitted against Divine Law as some kind of alternate reality that makes its own rules. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Let's see them sell off some of their real estate holdings. |
Why would the church do that? Or must one act poor to feel for the poor? Do I have to sell my apartment for cred? |
Why does the church need real estate? You need an apartment to live in. You do realize I'm not talking about churches, that I'm talking about real estate as an investment.
Besides which, charity is a fundamental precept of Christianity. And then, how can you ask others to give when you don't? |
Non-Catholic people think the Church is a giant international charity.
Dollar in, dollar out. No need to think of the future. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Let's see them sell off some of their real estate holdings. |
Why would the church do that? Or must one act poor to feel for the poor? Do I have to sell my apartment for cred? |
Why does the church need real estate? You need an apartment to live in. You do realize I'm not talking about churches, that I'm talking about real estate as an investment.
Besides which, charity is a fundamental precept of Christianity. And then, how can you ask others to give when you don't? |
Non-Catholic people think the Church is a giant international charity.
Dollar in, dollar out. No need to think of the future. |
The future of what? Are the priests saving up to put their illegitimate children through college? |
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