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Vets on here keep suggesting China? Why, and what's better?
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flash viego



Joined: 20 Jan 2013

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Vets on here keep suggesting China? Why, and what's better? Reply with quote

How can a job in China for a Newbie possibly compete with the perks of a job in Korea?
Free apartment. paid airfare, decent salary? It doesn't seem like China can compete with that, yet so many vets on here keep pushing, and suggesting China, with no real info on how it can compare .

Thanks for any info.
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Vets on here keep suggesting China? Why, and what's bett Reply with quote

flash viego wrote:
How can a job in China for a Newbie possibly compete with the perks of a job in Korea?
Free apartment. paid airfare, decent salary? It doesn't seem like China can compete with that, yet so many vets on here keep pushing, and suggesting China, with no real info on how it can compare .

Thanks for any info.


Lets see....

job in Korea:
2m/month salary
airfare
rent (often a one room studio - comparable in size to your average hotel room).
2m severance.
NET savings of about 10-12k USD per year.

job in China.
8000 rmb = 1.5m krw /month
airfare
rent (often a 2-3 bedroom, furnished apartment with mod cons).
contract completion bonus.
NET savings of about 10-12k USD per year (unless you are in Beijing or Shanghai).

When comparing jobs in different countries you have to look at the potential for SAVINGS and quality of life, NOT the base salary.

.
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lowpo



Joined: 01 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Vets on here keep suggesting China? Why, and what's bett Reply with quote

ttompatz wrote:
flash viego wrote:
How can a job in China for a Newbie possibly compete with the perks of a job in Korea?
Free apartment. paid airfare, decent salary? It doesn't seem like China can compete with that, yet so many vets on here keep pushing, and suggesting China, with no real info on how it can compare .

Thanks for any info.


Lets see....

job in Korea:
2m/month salary
airfare
rent (often a one room studio - comparable in size to your average hotel room).
2m severance.
NET savings of about 10-12k USD per year.

job in China.
8000 rmb = 1.5m krw /month
airfare
rent (often a 2-3 bedroom, furnished apartment with mod cons).
contract completion bonus.
NET savings of about 10-12k USD per year (unless you are in Beijing or Shanghai).

When comparing jobs in different countries you have to look at the potential for SAVINGS and quality of life, NOT the base salary.

.



1. Teaching and living is a lot better in China, than is Korea.
2. Co-teacher realationships are better in China.
3. Most kids and adults want to learn English, so they can have a better
life.
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KiwiRob



Joined: 05 Feb 2013
Location: Wellington, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The apparatus of the PRC's Internet repression is considered more extensive and more advanced than in any other country in the world. The governmental authorities not only block website content but also monitor the Internet access of individuals." - Wikipedia.

Is this not a massive con for anyone? I like using google, youtube, facebook and even wikipedia..
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KiwiRob wrote:
"The apparatus of the PRC's Internet repression is considered more extensive and more advanced than in any other country in the world. The governmental authorities not only block website content but also monitor the Internet access of individuals." - Wikipedia.

Is this not a massive con for anyone? I like using google, youtube, facebook and even wikipedia..


Mostly a non-issue for expats unless your favorite sites include places like AFF and redtube.

A simple VPN gets around it all.

.
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Tyshine



Joined: 04 Apr 2011

PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Vets on here keep suggesting China? Why, and what's bett Reply with quote

[quote="lowpo"]
ttompatz wrote:
flash viego wrote:


.



1. Teaching and living is a lot better in China, than is Korea.
2. Co-teacher realationships are better in China.
3. Most kids and adults want to learn English, so they can have a better
life.


I've never lived in China so could you give some examples of what you mean. Also I think many kids in Korea want to learn English so they can have a better life.
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thaitom



Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Phopphra, Thailand

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the contracts I have been sent from China state they will give a payment for airfare at the end of your contract (if you last that long) for most people it won't even cover a one-way airfare.

This is from a contract I was sent;

There will be a payment toward airfare costs of RMB 6,000 provided for employee of this contract. The payment will be made when the employee finishes his/her job contract
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lemak



Joined: 02 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thaitom wrote:
All the contracts I have been sent from China state they will give a payment for airfare at the end of your contract (if you last that long) for most people it won't even cover a one-way airfare.


Depends on the job. Mine paid the one way ticket two days after I arrived and the return portion about 4 months in. Didn't need to be hassled for it, just texted saying "Come to the Foreign Affairs Office to collect your plane ticket money". They pay up to whatever it costs to get you back to your home town. One guy at my work gets 12,000RMB a year (2,000 bucks).

Loads of variation in the contracts, pays, hours, conditions in China. A wise man once said to allow 3 months to find a decent job there, and I think it still holds true. I got over 1,000 emails with job offers before I finally accepted my current one. Kind of reminds me of applying for Korea 15 years ago. Put up your resume and have 100 messages when you wake the next day "We will hire you! Can you buy a plane ticket today and start tomorrow??" haha.

Chinese bosses also seem to like hiring people inside the country a lot more. The fact you have a valid working visa means you obviously have satisfied the entry requirements (education, medical check, Foreign Experts Certificate etc), saves them a lot of time and bureaucratic B.S, so be prepared to possibly suck up a less than desirable job the first time around.

The internet censorship thing is a non-issue. Every foreigner I know in China is accessing supposedly blocked sites on a daily basis. Many free VPNs work just fine. Interestingly enough in spite of being blocked China has the most Twitter users of any country in the world.
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Otherside



Joined: 06 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've looked at China a few times, and it always comes down to the money.

While Tom's figures may be accurate, the ads I've seen don't seem to match.

2m/month is clearly entry-level in Korea.
However, in China, I've seen countless positions offering salaries as low as 4000RMB. (Most of the public school/University positions seem to be in the 5000 - 6500 range).

I do see the Hagwon (whatever they're called in Chinese) offering salaries from 8000-15,000. But when they're offering up to double the salaries of the other positions, I always have to ask myself "what's the catch?".

So if anyone has any tips regarding the job hunt, what sorts of jobs to avoid, and how to make a decent living in a Chinese University with only a BA, that'd be greatly appreciated.
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Otherside wrote:
So if anyone has any tips regarding the job hunt, what sorts of jobs to avoid, and how to make a decent living in a Chinese University with only a BA, that'd be greatly appreciated.


Facts of life.
A BA is not equal to post grad credentials.

Uni jobs pay shite unless you have the qualifications to put you in demand and an unrelated BA just doesn't cut it.

A BA and TEFL cert IS entry level.
Land. Show you are worth more. Network and move up.

Outside of Beijing and Shanghai you can do pretty well on 6500.
Show you are decent in the classroom and you will find that plenty of opportunity comes your way (sort of like Korea 10-15 years ago).

China IS the wild west of the Far East. There IS gold to be had for those willing to get it. If you want an easy ride till the gravy train stops then stay in Korea. BTW - the gravy train isn't far out of the station so don't be counting on a long ride.

EFL is a growth industry but you have to go where the money is headed.
It is NOT a settle down and get complacent/comfortable type of industry (like primary schools are for those with B.Eds) where you can settle in for the long haul.

In the 90s it was Japan.
In the 1st decade of this century it was Korea.
Now it is China.
Follow the money or look at Japan to see what your future will look like 10 years from now.

.
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lemak



Joined: 02 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Otherside wrote:
how to make a decent living in a Chinese University with only a BA, that'd be greatly appreciated.


5~6,000rmb/month for the basic salary figuring around 12 hours work a week spread over 3-4 days. So say 1,000 bucks/month.

Now pick up some privates or teach a second job on the side (very easy).
4 extra hours/week at $30/hour = 120 bucks per week. 500ish a month.
You're now on 1,500USD/month for around 16 hours work.

Housing, electricity, gas, drinking water, tax, medical, internet, cable etc. are all free.

No bills, no tax. Your only real expense out of that is food and entertainment.

Some of the nicer unis will put a few hundred RMB on a card each month to spend at either the school cafeteria, or some of the on campus shops.
Now factor in the cost of living. Very cheap. I bought *two* 6 packs of beer yesterday for a whopping total of $3. That's something like 25 cents a can.

18rmb....around $3 will buy a fresh pineapple+6 oranges+6 mangoes. What would you get in Korea for 3,000 won? Maybe one mango? lol.
Spend a couple of hundred RMB ($30) in a supermarket and have more groceries than two people can carry.

Point being the cost of living is significantly cheaper than a Korea. We worked out for fresh produce what we pay 1rmb for in China will cost 1,000won in Korea......five times the price.

Off that initial 1500 bucks even drinking out, eating out, stuffing yourself like crazy it's not likely you'd spend over $500. Most singles who are happy to just hang out at home might only blow through half of that.

1500-500=$1,000/month saved for around half the teaching hours the average job in Korea will require. If you're a workaholic like my neighbors you could take your uni hours and then work an additional 16 hours per week on the side, making 3,000 bucks per month and *still* working fewer hours than most Korean hagwon or P.S jobs.....AND the kicker is you don't have to live and work in Korea, lol.

The beauty of Chinese uni jobs, and why most people recommend them at the start for newcomers is that you can more or less pick and choose your hours, and hence your pay. Want to do some exploring, take some long weekends, satisfy a computer game addiction, learn Chinese etc....just work the minimum, and take home enough cash to cover your living expenses and travel costs. Want to make some pretty good coin then line up the extra jobs and save like crazy.
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KiwiRob



Joined: 05 Feb 2013
Location: Wellington, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: Vets on here keep suggesting China? Why, and what's bett Reply with quote

ttompatz wrote:

NET savings of about 10-12k USD per year (unless you are in Beijing or Shanghai).
.


So how much more expensive is it to live in Beijing or Shanghai than elsewhere?

Double the amount you would spend elsewhere? Less than that?

Rough figures are fine Smile
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: Vets on here keep suggesting China? Why, and what's bett Reply with quote

KiwiRob wrote:
ttompatz wrote:

NET savings of about 10-12k USD per year (unless you are in Beijing or Shanghai).
.


So how much more expensive is it to live in Beijing or Shanghai than elsewhere?

Double the amount you would spend elsewhere? Less than that?

Rough figures are fine Smile


Again.. depends....

You can do OK on that money in Beijing BUT a night out on the town at a few "expat" joints can easily eat through a couple THOUSAND CNY per night.
Beer is a few CNY per can at the supermarket but 35-100 yuan (6-17k won) per bottle at an expat hangout is not uncommon.

Dinner for 2 at VIP Steakhouse (including a few drinks) can easily run 500 (or more) CNY. By comparison, at our local eatery in Beijing, dinner for 4 including beer and coke runs about 200 CNY.

By comparison, your Chinese co-worker is probably earning in the neighborhood of 1200-2000 cny/month in Beijing or Shanghai and even less out in the provinces.

3-4 nights out in the "expat" hangouts (rubbing shoulders with those expat execs on expense accounts) can easily chew up your entire salary.

Skip the high life and you can still do OK in the big cities on 6500 and still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle but the savings will suffer. 6500 out in the provinces and you can save a large part of it.

.
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butlerian



Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any universities offering that kind of money? Last time I tried, a few years ago, it was more like 4/5k, which obviously can't compare to the 3+k in Korea.
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Otherside



Joined: 06 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ttom,

I agree with what you say completely, however, this post was originally directed towards vets telling newbies to look at China, and by and large newbies will have an unrelated BA and not much else. So while I don't dispute that China has the growth and the potential to be better, would you still say that it's a better deal for a newbie looking to spend a year or two abroad than say a GEPIK job paying 2.0-2.1.


Thanks Lemak, that was the kind of post I was looking for. What are the legalities regarding a second-job / privates? Is it really easy to charge $30/hour for privates in a place where the average income is so low (assuming not in Beijing/Shanghai)?

As for the comment about "and you don't have to live in Korea"

What are the specific perks in an average city in China as compared to living in Seoul/Gyeonggi. I've heard the pollution is often horrendous, outside a few centres English is non-existant, and I doubt the infrastructure is comparable. I found even in Beijing (the only city in China proper I've been to), there was a serious lack of Western amenities/restaurants/groceries, and many of those that were available were exorbitant. I'm no Korea-hater, nor have I been treated poorly, so when I hear posts saying "it's the culture" or "at least I dont have to live with Koreans", it doesn't really ring a bell with me.

I know you don't need to do a sales job, but I'm really interested in what you have to say, so I'd appreciate if you tried Smile
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