|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
 Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:36 am Post subject: |
 |
|
That's amazing. (I think your story is out of the ordinary, Fox.)
When I wrote this I was thinking of you (I wasn't sure of your background), T-J, and fustiancordory (not sure of his background either) as possible exceptions.
I guess my belief is just because one thing is possible for one person, doesn't mean that same thing is possible for someone else.
What if a 6 foot 5 black guy (with huge muscles and broad shoulders) came on this board and ridiculed us for not making the NFL like he did, telling we didn't work hard enough and didn't have the heart (the drive and passion) that he did? What would you think?
Did you know scientists looked at muscle fibers from athletes and found black people have a higher proportion of fast twitch fibers? (good for muscle growth and for fast explosive movements) Look at the NBA or NFL: black people are disproportionately represented. In swimming and marathon running, it is mostly white people (though a member of a ethnic minority tribe from Kenya usually wins).*
* http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
11+ years ago when I first came to korea, there were 3 other foreigners who worked with me in a hogwon in Anyang - all decent guys in their 20s (3 westen cdn, 1 western american).
3 of us married locals
3 studied Korean
all lived here for about 10 years
Married or not wasn't the factor for language learning - studying was.
I, being the one who decided to pay off an apt, was the one who didn't study (much). And as a result, out of the 4 of us, I have the lowest k-skills. It was a choice... but it had little to do with the list of excuses listed above.
I do recognize that some people just have a better disposition towards language acquisition. I don't - but I still manage to get by with what I know - and in most circumstances can make myself understood. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
| PeteJB wrote: |
| There is no 'ace card' when it comes to language learning. Your either good at it or not, it doesn't have anything to do with being able to speak 2 languages as a child. |
Science says otherwise:
| Quote: |
| Presented at the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) Annual Meeting in Washington, DC, Werker's latest findings provide further evidence that exposure to two native languages contributes to the development of perceptual sensitivity that extends beyond their mother tongues. |
| Quote: |
| People who can speak two languages are more adept at learning a new foreign language than their monolingual counterparts, according to research conducted at Northwestern University. And their bilingual advantage persists even when the new language they study is completely different from the languages they already know. |
| Quote: |
| "It's often assumed that individuals who've learned multiple languages simply have a natural aptitude for learning languages," said Viorica Marian, associate professor of communication sciences and disorders at Northwestern University. "While that is true in some cases, our research shows that the experience of becoming bilingual itself makes learning a new language easier." |
| Quote: |
| "We're seeing that exposure to two languages early in life carries far-reaching benefits," said co-author Kaushanskaya. "Our research tells us that children who grow up with two languages wind up being better language learners later on." |
| Quote: |
| Hyperpolyglots have been the objects of curiosity at least since the 19th century, when Cardinal Giuseppe Mezzofanti of Bologna was said to have mastered more than 50 languages. For nearly as long, people have debated whether their ability was innate or learned. The answer, neurolinguists are now discovering, is a bit of both, said Loraine Obler, a linguist and a professor at the City University of New York who has studied bilingualism�s effect on the brain. �There are people whose brains are set up to do language learning,� she said, �the same way some people are more talented at drawing.� Also, she added, �The brain�s ability to absorb increases as we know more languages. Having a second language at a young age helps you learn a third, even if they�re unrelated.� |
_____________________
| Garciua wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
Unfortunately, many of us in the West are raised monolingual, which hurts our ability to learn other languages down the road.
|
You mean many English natives are monolingual 
Sounds weird that just because you have learned 2 languages it's easier to learn a third one. The only thing I can think of that would help is the experience that you know how you should learn it.
Put some time to it and everybody can learn a new language. No need for excuses.
Is it really harder to learn a language at the age of 25 than if you were 10? |
Yes. In the overwhelming majority of cases, adults cannot learn languages as well as children.
| Quote: |
| I used to think the "kids learn languages faster" thing was just a myth, until I moved to Costa Rica with my kids (ages 3 and 5). After 6 months they spoke decent Spanish. After 10 months their Spanish is almost at the same level as their English. I've spent the same time studying and while I know more words than they do, their speech is faster, their accent is better and they often understand native speakers better. |
I recently met a person with a Ph.D. in molecular biology who had lived in Japan from 1980 to 1989 (relevant because of the linguistic similarities between Japanese and Korean), and since 1989 had lived in Korea. This person's Korean level is so low he has trouble taking a taxi. Taxi drivers can't understand his pronunciation, and he is bitter about this.
Anyone with a Ph.D. (especially in science) surely must be a smart and ambitious person. I remember reading only 1.5% of the American populace has a Ph.D. (and I'm guessing in the past, the percentage was even lower). Holding a doctoral degree classifies one as the intellectual elite. Why then after 24 continuous years living in Korea was this person unable to speak Korean? Do you think people actually enjoy living this way? Do you think they have made no attempt to learn?
I had a recent conversation with a captain in the U.S. army. (He is a medical doctor; doctors automatically get the rank of captain.) He was telling me the officers he knows who have Korean wives and have lived here in Korea for 20-30 years have Korean levels that are abysmal. He told me the only military people he has ever met who could speak Korean are those who were trained by the U.S. government to learn Korean. (And these people were preselected for their high language aptitude; only a tiny minority of applicants are accepted.)
Look at these boards.
Most lifers can't speak Korean. Most F-6ers with a Korean spouse and/or Korean kids can't speak Korean. Most apologists and defenders of all things Korean can't speak Korean.
Apologist schwa has lived in the sticks of Korea for at least 14 years now. His Korean level is so low he cannot understand what is being said around him. He said he has made a sincere effort to learn the language, but has come to accept some people have more of a gift for second language acquisition than others. Too bad, because knowing Korean would come in handy. Schwa wants to retire in Korea and live here until he dies. (Maybe at age 60 he has no other options.) Don't you think that's dangerous? To be old and of deteriorating health, but to not be able to communicate? I personally would hate to be in that position.
Korea defender TheUrbanMyth is like schwa. He has lived in rural Korea for 13 years and will almost certainly be there for many more years to come. (He said he wouldn't mind retiring here.) His Korean level is solidly beginner. (He boasts about knowing the phonetics of 한글 and being able to order off a menu...but after 13 years in the sticks, that's nothing to brag about really.) In fact, if he ever scores low intermediate on the Test of Proficiency in Korean, I will leave these forums for good. (TUM has said he dislikes me and wishes I will stop posting here. Now is his big chance to achieve that. 一石二鳥.)
The Gadfly, living up to his name, made thousands of posts bashing those who said the slightest thing negative towards Korea. He was definitely one of the top apologists of all time. Gadfly came to Korea in the mid-nineties (pre-IMF), and lived in Korea a long time. Did he ever end up being able to speak Korean? Nope. And last year (or sometime in 2012) he left Korea to return to America, the stated reason being to find the social life that had eluded him in Korea. Could the reason he had a poor social life in Korea be that he was such a jerk? Sure. But the inability to speak Korean was also probably a contributing factor.
Long time apologist (and maybe now more of a moderate) Captain Corea cannot speak Korean. He has a Korean wife and a Korean daughter in first grade (or something close to that). Knowing Korean would benefit his life. But learning a language as an adult for most is not pleasant or easy. (Hell, it may not even be possible.)
If not for PatrickGHBusan/homer/thedude, Steelrails would be given the gold medal for top apologist on Dave's (by frequency of posts). Can he speak Korean? No, he cannot. He is ethnically Korean and lives in Korea, which means he has incentive (and even pressure) to learn the language well. Unfortunately for him, he grew up monolingual in the States.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Korean the spoken language is the baffling bewildering devil that continues to foil me. |
ESL teaching expats are college graduates, and are hence on average smarter and more ambitious than a person picked out of the population at random. Worldwide, less than 7% of adults have a college degree. In the U.S., the world's richest country, only one out of four adult males have a degree (which means three out of four do not). There, going to university is heavily subsidized by the government (both state and federal) which means boatloads of grant money. There is no one too poor to go to college in the U.S. In fact, the poorer you are, the more free money you get. Poor people get all their tuition paid for plus extra money just for enrolling in college. But guess what? Only about half the people who start college (in the U.S. at least, the country with the best universities) end up finishing and graduating. Some people are simply not smart enough and/or ambitious enough to complete it (or maybe there is another reason). The posters on this board have BAs at the least, and in some cases MAs or even PhDs. Why then are the majority of us unable to communicate in Korean?
Scott in Incheon first came to Korea in 1995. He has a Korean wife and and raising Korean kids. Why after many years total in Korea is he unable to speak Korean (beyond survival phrases)? He is teaching certified (and if I'm not mistaken also has a M.Ed.) which speaks to his persistence and intelligence. He also works at one of the best university jobs available (one with low working hours that gives loads of vacation) and has been there a while.
Lawyertood has a J.D. (I'm guessing those are hard to get.) He has been in Korea for a looonngg time. Surprise, surprise, he can't speak any Korean at all. He likes to brag on here about how he only teaches 9 hours per week and gets many months of paid vacation. For many years he has had plenty of spare time to learn the Korean language. What gives?
Edwardcatflap perhaps knows more about foreign language teaching than anyone else who posts on this board. He has taught ESL for 17 years, has a DELTA, and an MA in TESOL. He knows the best methods for aquiring a foreign language. He said he was studying the Korean language, and wants to learn so he can communicate with his wife's parents (who can't speak English).
| Quote: |
| I'm one of those guys people love to hate on here who's been living in Korea for nearly ten years and can't string a sentence in Korean together. |
Edwardcatflap is a damn smart person. I laughed so hard at some of the stuff he posted. ("I wonder if the Britsh songwriters get the old couldn't make it in your home country jibe. Judging by the quality of the song, I'm guessing yes.") Evolutionary psychologists say women like humor because it is an indication of intelligence. E's not a stupid person. So why, after a decade in the ROK, and before that, living in North Korea, is he unable to speak Korean?
Rapid Korea defender and apologist isitts is such a flunky, when his GEPIK school told him they weren't going to continue to pay him according to the correct payscale due to lack of funds, he said "OK". (He can't speak Korean.)
Simon and Martina can't speak Korean. It would be helpful for them to know too, seeing as how they want to interview k-pop stars. That is their livelihood (promoting Korean as cool to the rest of the world).
The CosmicHum is a lifer who has been named as a hated apologist on other sites. (Personally, for the most part I like him though; I think he is a funny guy...but he did name PatrickGHBusan as his favorite poster. >_<). Not sure how long he has been in Korea. It's been a long time- he said he has been driving for 10+ years. (I'm pretty sure he has a Korean wife- I'm almost 100% sure.) Once he called me to buy some beginning level Korean learning materials and one other thing. He was going to drive to Seoul to meet me. I said to him, "Oh, you're buying the language learning stuff for a friend." He said, "No. It is for me." I was thinking @.@ how is this guy driving without knowing Korean?
Apologist lifer Zyzyfer can't speak Korean. (I know this because he once tried to type a simple sentence in Korean and did it incorrectly.) How long has he been in Korea? Not sure, but he once said he has lived in Korea more than ten years.
VanIslander is a really hard working guy. He puts in many additional hours for prep (voluntarily) at his hagwon out of respect for his students. Recently (on another site- he is banned from this site; not sure why; he seems like a nice guy) he said he noticed Korean society is becoming less and less accepting of foreigners who can't speak Korean, and this is causing problems for him. After more than a decade here, he knows close to no Korean at all. (He said he knows only a dozen sentences.) He is a smart guy too.
| Quote: |
- been a chess champion at multiple levels of school, town, region, province (though not national, was spanked when tried to compete at highest level in Grade 4);
- read 100 books one summer as one of the certificate-winning Grade 5 public library readers club winners (LOL at my even mentioning this after a third of a century, am sufficiently drunk tonight to do so, forgive me);
- won the Best English Student Award in Grade 10 in a 170-student class of students, having to walk shocked up to stage in front of 1000+ students equally dumbfounded;
- was a two-year Dean's Honor List selection as one of a dozen or so among a group of 200+ undergrads;
- become university undergrad newspaper columnist, grad school scholarship student, university features editor;
- award-winning newspaper editor (best headline/leads for Conrad Black chain of 20+ newspapers in Western Canada) as the pinnacle of my journalist career, having moved up, from part-timer, to maternity-sub to regular newspaper reporter. |
Because Unposter chimed in in this thread, I will include him as well. I remember a post in which he wrote his study of a foreign language before coming to Korea was limited to two years of high school and two years in university. This is late in life to start learning a language. (Four years of language learning as a child pays better dividends than four years of language learning as an adult.) Based on this information alone, I can guess with confidence that Unposter sucks at Korean. Is he a stupid person? I would say no. Why? He named Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance as a book that changed his life. When I read that book at age 20, it was freaking hard for me to understand (so many big words and hard concepts). I would bet any money however that his six (seven?) year old kids speak better Korean than he does. Why should that be though? He has lived in Korea twice as long as they have.
Naturegirl321 wanted to get the F2-99 visa, awarded to those who have lived in Korea more than five consecutive years on the same visa, and who could prove they (legally) made double the average income in Korea. There is a new rule however that applicants must score high beginner on the TOPIK to get the visa, and Nature Girl was complaining how hard that would be, likening it to a pipe dream. Being able to score high beginner on a Korean test is a pipe dream? On the surface that seems absurd. However, having studied Korean, I can relate to her feelings of frustration. Nature Girl is a smart and hard working person, too. She has two masters degrees, has presented at conferences, and has publications in top ranked peer reviewed journals. For the duration of her time in Korea, she has had a great university job with short working hours and loads of vacation. Why after so many years in Korea is she still unable to speak basic Korean?
The dude who won the first "Korea Awaits" contest for best video promoting Korea has the words "I Love Korea" as a graphic slogan for his YouTube channel. He was even awarded honorary Seoul citizenship for his efforts. Obviously, he loves the country, and wants to stay here long term. Why can't he speak Korean then? Before coming to Korea, he took Korean language classes at his university, he studied abroad at Yonsei, and now he has been in Korea for seven years. He wants to be able to speak Korean. But it is so damn hard. Like most United Statesians, his background is one of monolingualism.
NYC_Gal 2.0 claims to be good at Korean, but I doubt she really is. ("Good" is subjective.) Anyways, if she ever scores above beginner level on the TOPIK, I will leave these forums for good (which would make her friends madoka and PatrickGHBusan quite happy). But that will never happen. Despite being here for years and having a plan to stay here for years to come, she will never advance beyond the beginner level. I remember a post by NYC_Gal 2.0 in which she said she once scored in the 99th percentile in for a standardized test (a writing test?) The 99th percentile is extremely high. However, NYC_Gal 2.0's Korean level is extremely suck. A young child who studied Korean would be able to quickly surpass her.
I just named twenty people (without a French English bilingual background) for whom learning Korean would be beneficial. If even a single one is able to break out of the beginning level, I will quit these forums forever, and I give the mods permission to perma ban me. Take the intermediate TOPIK test guys if you don't believe me. You will fail it.
MOST adults CANNOT learn languages as well as children. People who grew up bilingual are lucky as hell. Why? Simply being bilingual changes the brain as it is developing and forming. Next, at around age 16, connections in the brain for those areas not used are rapidly pruned and die. For the bilingual people the area of the brain for language learning is preserved. The monolingual people are S.O.L. Lastly, the bilingual people have a larger database of sounds. As people grow older, they lose the ability to hear and speak sounds not present in their language. Obviously, the more sounds one has at one's disposal, the better one can approximate and differentiate between new sounds in the foreign language, thus the better they can think and speak.
Once my Korean progressed from low beginner to high beginner, I noticed all the (non gypo) Westerners in my classes were people who had been in Korea a LONG time. I got to know them and got to know their stories. Almost universally, they told me their Korean wives were pissed at them for not being able to speak the language after having been in Korea, their mother-in-laws even more so. I remember asking how 추석 was (as a polite greeting). The normally loquacious acquaintance hung his head and quietly replied, "It was horrible. I couldn't communicate with my relatives."
One person in my class (and remember, classes mean an effort is being made to learn the language) taught high level stuff at a good international high school. Maybe the school was in session 180 days a year like in America- which means more days working than not working. (plenty of time off to learn the language.) This guy had been in Korea since the 1990s. His Korean wife threatened to divorce him unless he learned Korean. I am not still in contact, but last I knew the divorce was going through, and language was the stated reason (though there may have been other factors at play).
As for my personal experience with the language, I tried hard to learn Korean. I really did. I made a genuine and sincere effort over a long period of time. I spent thousands of dollars of my own money on university classes and personal tutors. I spent countless hours (which I cannot even estimate) listening to audio and reading grammar books. Despite this, I still cannot speak Korean. It is a devastating (and humiliating) feeling.
Hard work and belief in one's self are not the sole determiners of success. That is the harsh reality of life. Do you know what the number one determiner of success in bodybuilding is? Genetics. Good genetics are a requisite; crap genetics make it impossible to become muscular. What am I talking about? Muscle belly length. The longer the muscle belly, the better; short muscle bellies have minimal growth potential. Woody Allen was given as an example on a body building website as a person with short muscle bellies. He can lift weights all he wants, but will never get muscular.
Famed polyglot Barry Farber (speaker of 27 languages) was asked to name the most difficult language he had ever attacked. He said, "Korean has a different kind of difficulty. There are some languages we should invent a catchy phrase for this; the repeat/rely index, that'll work for now- if you learn a word in Italian and say it to an Italian person, the Italian will immediately understand. If you learn a word in Indonesian, the Indonesian will immediately understand. There's good repeat/rely there. If you learn a word in Korean, the Korean's eyes will glaze over; he'll be hopelessly confused. Then you say the word again, and you say it louder, and he still won't understand. Then you show him the word and he'll say Ah! and he'll repeat to you exactly what you've been saying, at least to your ears. That happens a lot in Mandarin, and it happens all the time in Korean."
Because Korean has such a large number of sounds, the ability to differentiate between them is essential. This is why a background in French is such a massive advantage.
It is no coincidence the apologists with a monolingual background can not speak Korean while those with a bilingual background can.
PatrickGHBusan- grew up bilingual and grew up in France.
rchristo- has a French mother
Chet Wautlands- a Canadian who was fluent in French before starting Korean
nate1983- likewise knew French before starting Korean
crossmr- is Canadian. I assume he had a lot of exposure to French before coming to Korea. He has said some stuff about the French language, so I assume he has studied it/had exposure to it (when young)
Who else speaks Korean here? (Why is it that they are almost always Canadian?)
In my own experience, I notice South Africans and Canadians tend to be better at Korean than Americans and Brits. Europeans tend to be better too (Misher pointed that out earlier). Why? Exposure to other languages at a young age. In Africa, it is common for everyone to know multiple languages. Since everyone does it, it is no big deal. How do they do it? By learning at a young age. Not every adult (from a monolingual background) can.
Did you ever hear about feral children raised by wolves? If they missed out on human language during their childhood, they were never able to learn the human language. Very sad (but true).
Respected singer songwriter Nick Cave, revered in large part for the depth of his lyrics, once wrote, "I always had a way with words." (not very humble, but probably true). He had always had a fascination with Brazil, and so decided to move there. While there, he fell in love and accidentally got a woman pregnant. He said for the first year or two he really liked being in Brazil, but after three years he left, the reason being his inability to learn the Portuguese language. He went back to England because he missed being able to have a proper conversation. He also said in the interview he is a person who is not good at learning foreign languages.
Perhaps you don't know who Nick Cave is, so I will give a more mainstream example. Ask people who they think the best lyricist is, and the most common answer you get will probably be Bob Dylan. Leonard Cohen asked Bob Dylan how long it took him to write his songs and was shocked to hear how fast Bob Dylan wrote songs. Did you know Bob Dylan paid big bucks to study under famed foreign language teacher Michel Thomas? Have you ever heard Bob Dylan speak another language?
| Quote: |
People (and, for that matter, various species of animals) have what is termed "critical period". If you learn *any* new skill during its critical period, you can do it. If you miss the critical period, you will either never learn it, or learn it imperfectly. This is true of many skills, not just language. The critical period for language learning is birth to age 10-15 (depending on the individual). If you learn 2 or more languages during the critical period, it is easier to learn other languages later on, although it *still* takes a lot more work than if you learn them earlier.
Source(s):
I have learned at least 8 foreign languages to varying degrees of fluency at different times. And my husband is a professional theoretical linguist (and has learned at least a *dozen* languages--several of them perfectly). |
| Quote: |
Linguists don't completely understand the process yet, but before the age of 12, the brain is highly adaptable to language, whether one language or 4 languages. Children learn language at an astonishing rate without formal training, just by hearing it used among their playmates. After 12, the brain actually turns off the language learning ability in most people. That is also the beginning of the onset of puberty in many societies. So it seems that there is a cognitive relationship between the cessation of easy language learning and the onset of puberty--the onset of breeding behavior.
Source(s):
I have a PhD in Linguistics and teach at a major US university |
| Chet Wautlands wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
Of English teachers who come from overseas, what percentage end up fluent in Korean? Anyone want to throw out a number? |
0.5%? I'd say one in 200 become fluent in Korean. |
|
왜요? 한국말 어려워요, 제가 공부가 안되. 시간에 엾어요. 일을 많이 했어요. 그래면 나 국어 아기있어요. 저의 한국말 (TOPIK) 초급이에요. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
That's amazing. (I think your story is out of the ordinary, Fox.)
When I wrote this I was thinking of you (I wasn't sure of your background), T-J, and fustiancordory (not sure of his background either) as possible exceptions.
I guess my belief is just because one thing is possible for one person, doesn't mean that same thing is possible for someone else. |
You seem really confused over the difference between first language acquisition and second language acquisition, and you need to realise that none of your quotes regarding the ability of children to naturally acquire languages support your thesis that Korean is impossible for you to learn. Yes, it's difficult. No, it's not impossible. End of story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
I guess my belief is just because one thing is possible for one person, doesn't mean that same thing is possible for someone else.
What if a 6 foot 5 black guy (with huge muscles and broad shoulders) came on this board and ridiculed us for not making the NFL like he did, telling we didn't work hard enough and didn't have the heart (the drive and passion) that he did? What would you think? |
I am not ridiculing anyone, but before leaping to the conclusion about me being naturally linguistically competent, I wonder about the methodologies employed by others. My current theory is that the primary obstacle most foreigners face is a weak passive vocabulary. Passive vocabulary is a vital foundation, and I have noticed a direct correlation between it and my overall competency. It does not matter how well versed you are in the grammar if you only know one or two thousand words, right? It was when my Anki deck broke 4000 or so words (meaning my total passive vocabulary was probably around 5000 solid words and an indeterminate number of guessable words based on root connections) that I started feeling conversant capability coming on.
I am not saying Korean is not hard, and I am not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I wonder how many words those who struggle at Korean have simply bothered to sit down and memorize. Even just 2 or 3 words a day adds up over years. I just looked at my Anki data, and it says I spend an average of 12 minutes a day in vocabulary memorization. That's almost nothing. How much time do those long-termers who have struggled spend per day on average memorizing vocabulary? Bet it's less. Maybe even almost zero. Vocabulary memorization is boring, but it's important. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Cool. Thanks for the comment. I guess I have a lot to think about now.
(But I think my problem is I might be able to catch the words in their written form, but not the spoken form. I guess I need more listening? Hopefully in the future I will be able to better catch what people are saying. And admittedly, my vocab is probably a lot less than 4,000 to 5,000 words. I guess I need to work on that. So many people praise Anki; I've yet to try it, but I guess I should.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
The first thing I learned after starting to study Korea was that I have no natural aptitude for language acquisition. It has always been an uphill battle.
It was very frustrating attending KLI with Japanese and Kyopo students who both had a much easier time than a person of Anglo background.
So, I'm definately not trying to put anyone down. Best of luck to you WT in what ever you elect to do.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The reverse applies. I understand the difficulties my students face getting good at english. But a few manage to astonish me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| T-J wrote: |
The first thing I learned after starting to study Korea was that I have no natural aptitude for language acquisition. It has always been an uphill battle.
It was very frustrating attending KLI with Japanese and Kyopo students who both had a much easier time than a person of Anglo background.
So, I'm definately not trying to put anyone down. Best of luck to you WT in what ever you elect to do.
|
Wow, T-J, I had assumed that you did have an aptitude for language acquisition. Now I feel like I should go and study Korean a little harder... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Privateer wrote: |
| You seem really confused over the difference between first language acquisition and second language acquisition, and you need to realise that none of your quotes regarding the ability of children to naturally acquire languages support your thesis that Korean is impossible for you to learn. Yes, it's difficult. No, it's not impossible. End of story. |
My point was:
1) Children learn languages better than adults.
2) Those who grew up bilingual as children are better at learning a third, unrelated language, than those who did not.
3) Beyond this, language acquisition ability may very well vary person to person.
Do you disagree with the above?
Maybe Korea is not impossible for me to learn, but with thousands of hours at stake, I'm not sure if a higher opportunity cost is something I'm willing to pay (or even something that can be guesstimated).
I met a woman who had been living in Korea for a decade. She said most of her friends had been in Korea even longer than she had. I asked her how many could speak Korean (because I wanted to meet them to get tips). She answered NONE. Can you believe it?
I met another woman, who, after fours years in the country, was just now getting around to learning the 한글 alphabet. She was telling me about how Korean is an easy language to learn, the world's most scientific, and all that BS. I asked her in her four years here how many English teachers she had met who could speak Korean. She answered none. I said, "See, that is evidence Korean is not easy to learn."
When I first came to Korea, I was excited when I would meet a expat who had been in Korea for 10+ years. I was eager to ask them for language learning tips. Each time, they would reply, embarrassed, "Uh...I don't speak Korean," then quickly add, "But I know enough to get by."
The reality is, Westerners here who can speak Korean are few and far between.
I just hate it when posters who have grown up bilingual act like that was no advantage and put down people with Korean wives and Korean children who don't speak Korean, telling them they are bad people and bad parents for not being able to speak the Korean language.
The All Japanese All The Time dude had a populist feel good position that the amount of time spent with a language is the (seemingly only) determiner of fluency success (apparently attainable in the same time frame). Did you know he grew up bilingual in Kenya? Inconsequential? I think not.
| Quote: |
| "We're seeing that exposure to two languages early in life carries far-reaching benefits," said co-author Kaushanskaya. "Our research tells us that children who grow up with two languages wind up being better language learners later on." |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Apologist schwa has lived in the sticks of Korea for at least 14 years now. His Korean level is so low he cannot understand what is being said around him. He said he has made a sincere effort to learn the language, but has come to accept some people have more of a gift for second language acquisition than others. Too bad, because knowing Korean would come in handy. Schwa wants to retire in Korea and live here until he dies. (Maybe at age 60 he has no other options.) Don't you think that's dangerous? To be old and of deteriorating health, but to not be able to communicate? I personally would hate to be in that position. |
Hey I'm flattered to be referred to in a daves thread. I seldom am.
A couple clarifications. Just shy of 13 years actually. Is Sokcho "the sticks"? Well maybe -- it aint Seoul, but its quite urban.
I can in fact catch the gist of most Korean conversation if I pay attention but if it doesnt involve me I can happily tune out banal chitchat.
A small but certain amount of language ability accrues naturally through daily exposure. As my time here goes on, I often go through a day without any english, making small talk with shopkeepers, taxi drivers, former students on the street, my housekeeper, etc. I can deal with most situations in korean as they arise. My vocab is extensive, my grammar is clumsy but functional, I can get information across on the phone. I accept that I would not be able to pass any formal test.
I'm not at all concerned about giving & getting needful medical details -- the system, even in my small city, is sufficiently english-based if my korean fails.
I was in my late 40s when I first came to Korea. Monolingual. Tried hard to learn French & Spanish when I was younger as a student & traveler & evidently lacked some extra language gene. No one in my extended family, as far as I know, has ever mastered a second language. I'd like to think I'm really good at english though!
I have a Canadian friend here in Sokcho who never formally studied korean & has become fluent -- I'm envious but realistic about my own abilities.
I've had a happy time in Korea & I'm not shy about stating so. Is that what makes me an "apologist"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When someone asked Mithridates how many hours he studied Korean per day he responded:
"About five when I was living in Japan, and then about fifteen a day during my first three-month stay here. Altogether it took about a year and a half."
That's about 3600 hours of study altogether. Most foreigners don't even come close to putting in that kind of effort to learn Korean. So is it surprising that they aren't fluent? I asked one foreigner why he never learned the alphabet after living here for more than three years. He told me that he never found it necessary. His girlfriend or other Korean friends could translate for him when needed. Such an attitude seems to be pretty common here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| schwa wrote: |
| I've had a happy time in Korea & I'm not shy about stating so. Is that what makes me an "apologist"? |
No. It's that some of the comments you make are rude and condescending. If a teacher says things are going wrong and asks for help, you blame the foreigner teacher. Other posters have called you an apologist, not just me. But sometimes you can be a cool person in my opinion. You have contributed useful posts to this board as well.
I think tests are the most honest way to assess one's ability. I am saying you will never be able to score above beginner level on the TOPIK, and you are agreeing with me.
If you are happy with your life, that's fine, and I'll leave it at that.
I think my point about age and language learning still stands.
| young_clinton wrote: |
| The most influential innate factor in picking up a language is your age. language ability decreases quickly after say about age 6, after 70 there is almost no chance of picking up another language. Someone middle aged is really going to have to spend a lot of time and many years learning Korean to become fluent. Someone say about 18 years old will pick it up a lot quicker than someone in their 20's and 30's |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
javis
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| You seem really confused over the difference between first language acquisition and second language acquisition, and you need to realise that none of your quotes regarding the ability of children to naturally acquire languages support your thesis that Korean is impossible for you to learn. Yes, it's difficult. No, it's not impossible. End of story. |
My point was:
1) Children learn languages better than adults.
2) Those who grew up bilingual as children are better at learning a third, unrelated language, than those who did not.
3) Beyond this, language acquisition ability may very well vary person to person.
Do you disagree with the above?
Maybe Korea is not impossible for me to learn, but with thousands of hours at stake, I'm not sure if a higher opportunity cost is something I'm willing to pay (or even something that can be guesstimated).
I met a woman who had been living in Korea for a decade. She said most of her friends had been in Korea even longer than she had. I asked her how many could speak Korean (because I wanted to meet them to get tips). She answered NONE. Can you believe it?
I met another woman, who, after fours years in the country, was just now getting around to learning the 한글 alphabet. She was telling me about how Korean is an easy language to learn, the world's most scientific, and all that BS. I asked her in her four years here how many English teachers she had met who could speak Korean. She answered none. I said, "See, that is evidence Korean is not easy to learn."
When I first came to Korea, I was excited when I would meet a expat who had been in Korea for 10+ years. I was eager to ask them for language learning tips. Each time, they would reply, embarrassed, "Uh...I don't speak Korean," then quickly add, "But I know enough to get by."
The reality is, Westerners here who can speak Korean are few and far between.
I just hate it when posters who have grown up bilingual act like that was no advantage and put down people with Korean wives and Korean children who don't speak Korean, telling them they are bad people and bad parents for not being able to speak the Korean language.
The All Japanese All The Time dude had a populist feel good position that the amount of time spent with a language is the (seemingly only) determiner of fluency success (apparently attainable in the same time frame). Did you know he grew up bilingual in Kenya? Inconsequential? I think not.
| Quote: |
| "We're seeing that exposure to two languages early in life carries far-reaching benefits," said co-author Kaushanskaya. "Our research tells us that children who grow up with two languages wind up being better language learners later on." |
|
Maybe the long-termers that you are referring to have picked up the Korean trait of lowering themselves in deference to others. They could be just understating their abilities.
I've put in thousands of hours of study, and have some high test scores, but it makes me uncomfortable to say that I'm good at Korean. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
I guess my belief is just because one thing is possible for one person, doesn't mean that same thing is possible for someone else.
What if a 6 foot 5 black guy (with huge muscles and broad shoulders) came on this board and ridiculed us for not making the NFL like he did, telling we didn't work hard enough and didn't have the heart (the drive and passion) that he did? What would you think? |
I am not ridiculing anyone, but before leaping to the conclusion about me being naturally linguistically competent, I wonder about the methodologies employed by others. My current theory is that the primary obstacle most foreigners face is a weak passive vocabulary. Passive vocabulary is a vital foundation, and I have noticed a direct correlation between it and my overall competency. It does not matter how well versed you are in the grammar if you only know one or two thousand words, right? It was when my Anki deck broke 4000 or so words (meaning my total passive vocabulary was probably around 5000 solid words and an indeterminate number of guessable words based on root connections) that I started feeling conversant capability coming on.
I am not saying Korean is not hard, and I am not saying you are necessarily wrong, but I wonder how many words those who struggle at Korean have simply bothered to sit down and memorize. Even just 2 or 3 words a day adds up over years. I just looked at my Anki data, and it says I spend an average of 12 minutes a day in vocabulary memorization. That's almost nothing. How much time do those long-termers who have struggled spend per day on average memorizing vocabulary? Bet it's less. Maybe even almost zero. Vocabulary memorization is boring, but it's important. |
That's definitely where Anki is most useful, when you reach a point that your understanding of everyday vocabulary is pretty good but that large field of passive vocabulary is still lacking. Those words are known by native speakers over their long and intense exposure to the language but for a student spending an hour or two a day on it there's much less chance of encountering them with any frequency so Anki steps in and makes it happen artificially. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
