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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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 Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| mandrews1985 wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
What do you guys mean by scripts? I have done some TOEFL teaching, and there seems to be sections on vocabulary words alone, reading excerpts based on school subjects rather than chat topics/discussions (which is what I would think "speaking" would consist of), and then the notorious mock college situations where you listen to lectures and conversations that might take place on campus.
Where do the scripts come in, and what are they about? I use sentence patterns loosely in dialogues for those who want to work on basic to intermediate daily conversation. However, with TOEFL, it seems more multiple choice based problems. |
The impression that I got from the OP was that his coworker had (or claimed to have) prepared scripted responses for all possible speaking question that may appear on the speaking section and merely got his students to memorize these sample answers, or scripts.
With the speaking their is no multiple choice based problems, are you confusing speaking with listening or reading? They both are multiple choice based.
The speaking test consists of 6 questions, 2 independent and 4 integrated. The independent style (which I believe this topic is specifically about) are based on your own opinions and experience. Preference based. While the 4 integrated consist of Lecture, Lecture and reading, announcement and conversation, just conversation based on a problem. |
I honestly have no idea what the target goal for "TOEFL Speaking" is. That's why I am asking. I am teaching a class labeled "TOEFL Speaking" but I am not trying to deliver TOEFL speaking. Rather, their vocabulary is low and they don't write well. Add simple grammar errors and they are not ready for any TOEFL yet.
I have had some advanced Korean students study TOEFL and these guys were at the level to take in new TOEFL vocabulary and write essays applying grammar beyond the basics. My current class though is not ready. One girl won't even write her name on a piece of paper. Apparently they only had her buy a good TOEFL book with highlighted words and example sentences like you can find at http://fy.iciba.com or probably a naver site for Korean (as well as the site http://dic.impact.pe.kr/ ). The sad part is she should be studying 1,000 of the most frequently used words first before tackling the TOEFL material. How is she going to relate the new TOEFL words with the suggested synonyms if she can't understand the synonyms?
Logically speaking, I thought you could listen to something and then be asked a question for comprehension and have to speak the answers.
With this thread it seems like there is a different format where you not only answer a question but you present something as a mini essay in spoken form. I am trying to get my current students to write first and then speak because on the spot questions are answered with long pauses of silence and then that turns to boredom and the students grab their phones and play games until I tell them to stop it.
After they are comfortable preparing a written response, then we will work on skipping some of the writing and go straight to the speaking part. |
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mandrews1985
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| mandrews1985 wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
What do you guys mean by scripts? I have done some TOEFL teaching, and there seems to be sections on vocabulary words alone, reading excerpts based on school subjects rather than chat topics/discussions (which is what I would think "speaking" would consist of), and then the notorious mock college situations where you listen to lectures and conversations that might take place on campus.
Where do the scripts come in, and what are they about? I use sentence patterns loosely in dialogues for those who want to work on basic to intermediate daily conversation. However, with TOEFL, it seems more multiple choice based problems. |
The impression that I got from the OP was that his coworker had (or claimed to have) prepared scripted responses for all possible speaking question that may appear on the speaking section and merely got his students to memorize these sample answers, or scripts.
With the speaking their is no multiple choice based problems, are you confusing speaking with listening or reading? They both are multiple choice based.
The speaking test consists of 6 questions, 2 independent and 4 integrated. The independent style (which I believe this topic is specifically about) are based on your own opinions and experience. Preference based. While the 4 integrated consist of Lecture, Lecture and reading, announcement and conversation, just conversation based on a problem. |
I honestly have no idea what the target goal for "TOEFL Speaking" is. That's why I am asking. I am teaching a class labeled "TOEFL Speaking" but I am not trying to deliver TOEFL speaking. Rather, their vocabulary is low and they don't write well. Add simple grammar errors and they are not ready for any TOEFL yet.
I have had some advanced Korean students study TOEFL and these guys were at the level to take in new TOEFL vocabulary and write essays applying grammar beyond the basics. My current class though is not ready. One girl won't even write her name on a piece of paper. Apparently they only had her buy a good TOEFL book with highlighted words and example sentences like you can find at http://fy.iciba.com or probably a naver site for Korean (as well as the site http://dic.impact.pe.kr/ ). The sad part is she should be studying 1,000 of the most frequently used words first before tackling the TOEFL material. How is she going to relate the new TOEFL words with the suggested synonyms if she can't understand the synonyms?
Logically speaking, I thought you could listen to something and then be asked a question for comprehension and have to speak the answers.
With this thread it seems like there is a different format where you not only answer a question but you present something as a mini essay in spoken form. I am trying to get my current students to write first and then speak because on the spot questions are answered with long pauses of silence and then that turns to boredom and the students grab their phones and play games until I tell them to stop it.
After they are comfortable preparing a written response, then we will work on skipping some of the writing and go straight to the speaking part. |
I guess the target goal for 'TOEFL Speaking' class would be as simple as prepare these students to take the test in the near future. My previous academy had all the students in the TOEFL classes, about 250 students, take the ETS practice test atleast 4 times a year, plus we would recreate tests, using older tests another 4-8 times a year. I'd presume your academy would have something similar in place, all though you may not be aware of it (gotta love Korean communication).
Now for your specific class i guess it depends on what they do elsewhere, do they have regular 'vocabulary' tests, again my previous job, each day the student attended they had a 30 word test based on TOEFL vocabulary (so that's 60 unique words a week 48 weeks a year) before they start class time. (arrive at 7.30 test from 7.30-7.40 and then actual class starts at 7.40) so what I'm getting at is, you need to find out if the students you teach are being tested like this by their Korean homeroom teacher, if not you need to bring it in and make a significant part of your lower level TOEFL speaking classes.
Yeah, your understanding is incorrect on the format of the test. What's similar to what you said is the integrated questions. for example:
Campus situation questions will give the students some kind of notice, announcement, email that was sent around the university regarding something, to read. Then they listen to a conversation between 2 students regarding that announcement. Then the question will be something like...What is the man's opinion? state using his examples why he has that opinion. The students are then giving a very short amount of time (15 -30 seconds depending on Q) to prepare then they have 45-60 seconds response time.
In a TOEFL speaking class you should be aiming to help students think quickly, note take and manage time. This is all easier said than done especially in the lower level TOEFL classes.
The most basic independent question would be: Do you prefer to eat at home or in a restaurant. Why give reasonds and details for your response.
When students see the question on the test, they have 15 seconds to prepare before they must respond. Their response should be 45 seconds. So rather than have the students write there response, brainstorms and fill in the blank outlines can help the students. That's where frameworks come in.
Restate Question + provide your preference.
Segue into the body with 'There are 2 reasons why i prefer this. '
My first reason is + insert reason. + insert detail + insert personal experience.
Repeat for reason 2.
In conclusion + paraphrased the introduction
So if you are getting the students to write their responses first, maybe you want to use something similar to that, so the students can then just place their unique reasons/details into the right places.
Last edited by mandrews1985 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mandrews1985
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| EDIT: double post. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| brainstorms and fill in the blank outlines can help the students. |
I get the blank outlines part, but what do you do for "brainstorms"? I regularly give word map lessons to high school and college students who have difficulty organizing concepts and putting words together.
For example, a word map could start with the word "animal" and branch out to cat, bird, and dog. That is the 2nd layer. In the third layer they could choose tiger, eagle, and wolf. I try to get 4 layers or more. In a social class, we talk about the town they live in and then they make sentences after we get 4 layers.
Interestingly enough though, this TOEFL class did something unique with my word map lesson. A student from another school talked about water being evaporated and going into the air and coming back as precipitation. I was impressed by her application of what I was teaching. This class was able to talk to me about different places to eat food, from cheap fast food joints to expensive hotel and banquet settings. We created 10 layers.
However, when it came to speaking they could only pivot between the second and the first without my help. I could explain the third layer of whatever they wanted, but they were lost at the 4th layer.
Are there other "brainstorm" activities?
| Quote: |
Restate Question + provide your preference.
Segue into the body with 'There are 2 reasons why i prefer this. ' |
This is the first thread where I have seen "2" as the magical number. I have always gone with 3 in preparing examples.
There is a bit of advice from a grandmaster who said if you don't have time to play chess, learn a few openings rather well instead of trying to get a general understanding of all.
This is where the gamble comes in for students studying English. If they study a little of each, they might be able to comment a little on anything and "fool" or "squeak" by the judges. However, if you can fully understand a speech by a famous person or be able to think out a problem, then you just substitute the words you don't know for possible words you do know.
For example, names and places. I tell students not to memorize names and places because this could happen anywhere and with anyone. Try to understand what is actually happening. Then you can replace the unknown words for the mechanics of what is being addressed. |
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T-dot
Joined: 16 May 2004
Location: bundang
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: |
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You can use either method to get 30, there isnt a magic formula.
Ive yet to see someone hit 30 with 3 reasons though, mostly because I dont give my students that option. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| T-dot wrote: |
You can use either method to get 30, there isnt a magic formula.
Ive yet to see someone hit 30 with 3 reasons though, mostly because I dont give my students that option. |
30 what? orgasms?
What are you talking about "mate"? 30 What what and all that rock n roll. |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| T-dot wrote: |
You can use either method to get 30, there isnt a magic formula.
Ive yet to see someone hit 30 with 3 reasons though, mostly because I dont give my students that option. |
30 what? orgasms?
What are you talking about "mate"? 30 What what and all that rock n roll. |
What, are you joking? He means getting a 30 on the speaking section, which is a perfect score for each part of the TOEFL. Reading 30, Listening 30, Speaking 30, and Writing 30 for a total score of 120. I guess you do not teach TOEFL. |
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Voyeur
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I've heard, anecdotally, that even though the structured response of: repeat question, segue with "for two reasons", and then provide two reasons (introduced with 'First' and Second') might have once been ideal, some examiners are a bit prejudiced against it. That is to say, they have have heard it so much that to them it feels 'canned', and they unconsciously end up scoring the person a bit lower than if they answered in a more 'natural' way. Do you think there is any truth to this? |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| T-dot wrote: |
You can use either method to get 30, there isnt a magic formula.
Ive yet to see someone hit 30 with 3 reasons though, mostly because I dont give my students that option. |
30 what? orgasms?
What are you talking about "mate"? 30 What what and all that rock n roll. |
What, are you joking? He means getting a 30 on the speaking section, which is a perfect score for each part of the TOEFL. Reading 30, Listening 30, Speaking 30, and Writing 30 for a total score of 120. I guess you do not teach TOEFL. |
Because I don't know the highest score I don't teach it? I am trying to teach students to get the highest score THEY CAN not the highest score on the test. There is a big difference. I guess you do not use logic. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| repeat question, segue with "for two reasons", and then provide two reasons (introduced with 'First' and Second') might have once been ideal, some examiners are a bit prejudiced against it. |
Should you keep your strongest reason for the end? |
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globusmonkey
Joined: 19 Aug 2011
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that the script-like repetition of restate, reason/example, reason/example can be stale if you teach your students that is the only way to do it. Especially if you always have them use the "My first reason is, and one example of this would be... My second reason is, and one example of this would be...". I have found it useful to explain how the test works, including the scoring system and rubrics (especially since Speaking is scored on a 4 point basis for individual questions but is worth 30 points for the six question section), and then utilize a thorough checklist for immediate feedback, including things like style, originality of vocabulary/structural usage. If you give the students the task as a problem to be solved (with a basic template that covers what is needed, not what to say), they can work on their own methods of including all the relevant information. Group brainstorming and teacher modeling of various answers for the same question can be helpful in showing students what is possible. The idea is to have the most natural response possible, while including the required information.
As far as strength of reasoning, you should always work with the most important/strongest reason first, then work down to least important. This is normal English structure, and is difficult for many Korean students because their native language works in an opposite fashion of order logic (this is a basic generalization, I know, so please don't hammer me on specifics/semantics). I always encourage two reasons with solid explanations and examples, since there is not enough time for well-developed three reason responses. If a student can't think of two, they need to really nail the one reason, with more than one example used for specifics. There are many benefits of teaching TOEFL along with general information about the linguistic and cultural characteristics of English, so it might help to explain why they are doing what they're doing (at least with higher level students). |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Because I don't know the highest score I don't teach it? I am trying to teach students to get the highest score THEY CAN not the highest score on the test. There is a big difference. I guess you do not use logic. |
You teach TOEFL and do not know the perfect score on the test? To me, that says you haven't even done cursory research about the test. Almost every TOEFL textbook has a single page, usually near the front of the book, which breaks down every portion of the test, including the maximum score for each section and the whole test. If you haven't bothered to do even basic research about the test, then, yes, you're not a proper TOEFL teacher. Sorry.
As a TOEFL teacher, ALL the people I have worked with in my TOEFL academy over the years know the perfect score for each section, and, by logical extension, how the scoring system works. This is the simplest and most effective way to improve students' scores, whether they are shooting for a 30 or just want to improve from an 18 to a 22. How can you teach students to improve their TOEFL score if you don't know anything about the test? Seriously, dude.  You're obviously not working in a proper TOEFL academy in a competitive area such as Daechi-dong or Apgujeong. Otherwise, there is no way you could teach TOEFL and be so ignorant about the test because your students would complain that you don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you do yourself and your students a favor and learn about the subject matter that you are supposedly an expert about. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You teach TOEFL and do not know the perfect score on the test? To me, that says you haven't even done cursory research about the test. Almost every TOEFL textbook has a single page, usually near the front of the book, which breaks down every portion of the test, including the maximum score for each section and the whole test. If you haven't bothered to do even basic research about the test, then, yes, you're not a proper TOEFL teacher. Sorry. |
So me knowing this information increases their score how many points you pedantic little twwat??
NEXT COMMENT.....
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| ALL the people I have worked with in my TOEFL academy over the years know the perfect score for each section |
What do you mean by "perfect"? Now you are showing your ignorance.
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| How can you teach students to improve their TOEFL score if you don't know anything about the test? |
They were never working on a TOEFL score to begin with. Get it? There is nothing to improve upon. HELLO McFly!!!!
Yea, seriously. You are pretending like they came out of the womb with some TOEFL agenda in their DNA.
| Quote: |
| Why don't you do yourself and your students a favor and learn about the subject matter that you are supposedly an expert about. |
Where did I say I was an expert? I teach what I want to teach, when I want to teach, and how I want to teach. I am not engineered to be a TOEFL expert. Is that ok TOEFL robot? |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You teach TOEFL and do not know the perfect score on the test? To me, that says you haven't even done cursory research about the test. Almost every TOEFL textbook has a single page, usually near the front of the book, which breaks down every portion of the test, including the maximum score for each section and the whole test. If you haven't bothered to do even basic research about the test, then, yes, you're not a proper TOEFL teacher. Sorry. |
So me knowing this information increases their score how many points you pedantic little twwat??
NEXT COMMENT.....
| Quote: |
| ALL the people I have worked with in my TOEFL academy over the years know the perfect score for each section |
What do you mean by "perfect"? Now you are showing your ignorance.
| Quote: |
| How can you teach students to improve their TOEFL score if you don't know anything about the test? |
They were never working on a TOEFL score to begin with. Get it? There is nothing to improve upon. HELLO McFly!!!!
Yea, seriously. You are pretending like they came out of the womb with some TOEFL agenda in their DNA.
| Quote: |
| Why don't you do yourself and your students a favor and learn about the subject matter that you are supposedly an expert about. |
Where did I say I was an expert? I teach what I want to teach, when I want to teach, and how I want to teach. I am not engineered to be a TOEFL expert. Is that ok TOEFL robot? |
You said you are a TOEFL teacher. Why would your students study TOEFL if they do not want to improve their TOEFL score? If they are studying TOEFL speaking to improve their general speaking ability, then I suppose I can understand why you know so little about the test. But if you want to help your students improve their English, then it is better to study more general conversation, I think. TOEFL speaking is structured in a way that is quite different from natural speaking and is not the best way to teach a student to learn how to speak well. But if your academy has tasked you with teaching TOEFL, and your students will take the test, the least you could do is learn about the test.
I am a bit confused about your criticism of my use of the word perfect. Like all standardized tests, the TOEFL has a maximum score, which is 120. Each section has a maximum score of 30. If a test taker gets a 30 out of 30 on the speaking section, is that not a perfect score? Of course, it does not mean the student is a "perfect" speaker, as there is no such thing, but it means that they have mastered all the skills tested on the TOEFL.
In any case, don't be so defensive about your ignorance. As a teacher, you should be willing to at least listen to those who are more knowledgeable about something than yourself. You obviously don't know much about TOEFL, so I am willing to share a bit of the knowledge I have learned over the years as a TOEFL teacher to help you improve yourself. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why would your students study TOEFL if they do not want to improve their TOEFL score? |
How do you know students understand what "TOEFL" means in order to improve it? Challenge on. I challenge you to convince me that these students understand what it is they are supposed to study.
It's one thing to say a businessman wants to improve their English, but to say a high school kid wants to improve their TOEFL score means either they are intelligent and a good student or they are a completely naive teenager signing up for a TOEFL course because their parents signed them up for it.
Do you have 100s of idiotic students wanting to study TOEFL to "improve" their score? Put up or shut up, ok?
They are just taking it because it is a course in the curriculum, they have no vested interest in you or your TOEFL agenda. Got it?
NEXT.....
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| As a teacher, you should be willing to at least listen to those who are more knowledgeable about something than yourself. |
Ok, what do you know or think you know? Let's start there goofball. |
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