|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
nuthatch
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:00 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| NK is a known exporter of CONVENTIONAL weapons systems... the very ones which I mentioned are their main threat to us. |
Again, which systems? Please answer that question.
Please show me the nations that are lining up to purchase N. Korean systems (aside from fellow pariah Iran, which they share missile and nuclear tech with). |
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/north-koreas-missile-trade-helps-fund-its-nuclear-program
| Quote: |
"They [the North Koreans] are the No. 1 proliferators of missiles, and also of conventional weapons," Gen. Thomas A. Schwartz, former commander of the United Nations and the US forces in South Korea, told the US Senate Armed Services Committee last year. "That is how they have kept their economy alive, and they are actively pursuing those interests around the world."
If proof was needed, the interception in December 2002 of a Cambodian-registered, North-Korean owned ship carrying ballistic missiles, proved it. Working on a US tip, Spanish marines patrolling the sea boarded the ship and found 15 scud missiles, 15 conventional warheads, 23 tanks of nitric acid rocket propellant and 85 drums of unidentified chemicals under a cargo of cement bags. The destination of the shipment was Yemen. Yemen is believed to be a relatively new buyer of North Korean missiles. It is not entirely clear why Yemen decided to purchase such advanced weaponry. According to US sources, other customers of North Korean missile parts and technology include Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Libya, Syria and Vietnam. The missile sales to "rogue states" in the Middle East and Asia have raised fears that at least some of these missiles might end up in the hands of international terrorist groups. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Steelrails, even the things you post back me up, and make you look more stupid. From your above link (please note the wording from your experts, which contradict your "expert" opinion)
|
Of course North Korea can cause heavy casualties. Paju and other border towns are in range of many more of their systems.
But when you start cpouting off claims about devastating Seoul, the argument gets considerably more hollow.
And the whether or not the force that is active and maintained is capable of causing heavy damage is irrelevent to the question of whether or not their army is well maintained.
| Quote: |
| I'll give you this fact, though... a document was leaked this week showing that the US knows North Korea does possess nuclear missile capability in some form. |
If you really read it, its talking more about the technical expertise and theory, not the actually assembly and testing.
| Quote: |
| Massive fail on your part, Steelrails. Massive fail. Laughable. |
Not at all, not to someone who actually knows how to read military and foreign policy articles. It's kind of like being able to understand legalese. If you don't really know how to read it and read all parts of a legal document, then you will draw poor conclusions.
| Quote: |
| Here's a video for you. Perhaps they don't care about dying, and maybe just knowing they can kill a lot of us is enough: |
Ah yes, the CNN hype machine. Have you read the articles about the soldiers doubling as farmers, also written by defectors.
Use common sense- Is a modern military that has its soldiers double as farmers, a well-maintained and trained elite fighting force? How can a nation that has an economy that is the equivalent of a banana republic African country field a "Well-maintained" large army?
And did you also read the article about how North Korea was found to be buying second hand parts for 1959-developed MiG-21 fighters from that modern military "powerhouse" Mongolia? Please. That's all you need to know about the state of their military. Some of us can see through the media hype-machine about North Korea, join the club!
===========================================
| Quote: |
| They [the North Koreans] are the No. 1 proliferators of missiles, and also of conventional weapons," Gen. Thomas A. Schwartz, former commander of the United Nations and the US forces in South Korea, told the US Senate Armed Services Committee last year. "That is how they have kept their economy alive, and they are actively pursuing those interests around the world." |
That quote was likely chopped and taken out of context. Probably in full it read "North Koreans are the number one proliferators of missiles and conventional weapons to rogue nations"
You do realize that in the article it says that North Korean arms sales total 500 million a year, which is pennies on the dollar when it comes to arms.
The US, exports $66 billion in arms sales a year. Sorry, the North Koreans are not number one.
| Quote: |
| It is not entirely clear why Yemen decided to purchase such advanced weaponry |
Referring to SCUD-Bs as "advanced weaponry" is quite the stretch.
Again, this is why you need to be able to do follow-up research and have a frame of reference when reading these articles. If you read that you might believe it. However if you habitually read defense-related articles and news about arms systems sales, you'd realize that 500 million is not some whopping figure. Heck, pretty much every recent major arms development program and purchas South Korea has undertaken has figures in the tens of billions (purchases that approach the size of North Korea's annual GDP). Fighter jets, missiles, K-2s, KDXs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Another thing that makes me think South Koreans are a lot more worried than usual about the North Koreans is this:
When I go to Seoul, I often get off at Jonggak station. In the past, there were nearly always anti-US military groups of Koreans angrily yelling through loudspeakers, wanting the US military to leave. I have been there two of the last three Saturdays and these people haven't been there at all. For now, it appears these groups want the US military to guard their border for them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
Steelrails, even the things you post back me up, and make you look more stupid. From your above link (please note the wording from your experts, which contradict your "expert" opinion)
|
Of course North Korea can cause heavy casualties. Paju and other border towns are in range of many more of their systems.
But when you start cpouting off claims about devastating Seoul, the argument gets considerably more hollow. |
SR, NK artillery can reach all of Seoul. You repeatedly claimed it can't, but it can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koksan_(artillery) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
Steelrails, even the things you post back me up, and make you look more stupid. From your above link (please note the wording from your experts, which contradict your "expert" opinion)
|
Of course North Korea can cause heavy casualties. Paju and other border towns are in range of many more of their systems.
But when you start cpouting off claims about devastating Seoul, the argument gets considerably more hollow. |
SR, NK artillery can reach all of Seoul. You repeatedly claimed it can't, but it can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koksan_(artillery) |
I never claime that. Read more carefully.
Le sigh. The Koksan has the range with rocjet assisted ordinance to hit the northern parts of Seoul. However the majority of shells would be conventional and at extreme range would hit the least dense, northern most parts of Seoul.
However koksans are not the bulk of North Korean artillery. And they have a limited number of firing sites. When you take that into consideration, as well as the limitations of artillery, plus the effects of counter battery fire then you realize they cant devastate Seoul. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I wonder how much damage the North Korean artillery could do to Seoul before being taken out? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| young_clinton wrote: |
| I wonder how much damage the North Korean artillery could do to Seoul before being taken out? |
The panic would create more carnage than the actual shells. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| young_clinton wrote: |
| I wonder how much damage the North Korean artillery could do to Seoul before being taken out? |
Safe bet that answer is "more than anyone wants" and "enough to justify military action". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
I honestly doubt they would conduct an artillery strike on Seoul as part their asymmetrical strategy. I don't know why this is even a topic. A strike would prompt military action against them and destroy their precious artillery.
An actual strike wouldn't do enough damage to immobilize ROK forces or to give the Norks a real strategic advantage of any kind. Their artillery would be better used tactically against military targets. The threat of an attack on Seoul is probably better used as a bargaining chip. If they actually do it, they risk losing that chip. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
Le sigh. The Koksan has the range with rocjet assisted ordinance to hit the northern parts of Seoul. However the majority of shells would be conventional and at extreme range would hit the least dense, northern most parts of Seoul.
|
I've heard you talk about the northern parts of Seoul on numerous occasions and I have to ask, have you ever been to 의정부, 노원구, 연신내, 은평뉴타운?
The population density of 은평구 is double that of 종로구 and even higher than 강남구.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
javis
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| T-J wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Le sigh. The Koksan has the range with rocjet assisted ordinance to hit the northern parts of Seoul. However the majority of shells would be conventional and at extreme range would hit the least dense, northern most parts of Seoul.
|
I've heard you talk about the northern parts of Seoul on numerous occasions and I have to ask, have you ever been to 의정부, 노원구, 연신내, 은평뉴타운?
The population density of 은평구 is double that of 종로구 and even higher than 강남구.
|
I was wondering if someone would bring this up. My fiancee lives in Uijeongbu, and has asked what she should do if war breaks out. I had to say just get the eff out of Uijeongbu... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cwaddell
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| EZE wrote: |
Another thing that makes me think South Koreans are a lot more worried than usual about the North Koreans is this:
When I go to Seoul, I often get off at Jonggak station. In the past, there were nearly always anti-US military groups of Koreans angrily yelling through loudspeakers, wanting the US military to leave. I have been there two of the last three Saturdays and these people haven't been there at all. For now, it appears these groups want the US military to guard their border for them. |
Are you joking? I lived by Jonggak for three years, until recently, and never saw this once. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| T-J wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Le sigh. The Koksan has the range with rocjet assisted ordinance to hit the northern parts of Seoul. However the majority of shells would be conventional and at extreme range would hit the least dense, northern most parts of Seoul.
|
I've heard you talk about the northern parts of Seoul on numerous occasions and I have to ask, have you ever been to 의정부, 노원구, 연신내, 은평뉴타운?
The population density of 은평구 is double that of 종로구 and even higher than 강남구.
|
I have not been to any of those places. However in a couple of posts, possible on other threads, I mentioned that while Seoul might be at the edge, Paju is certainly well within range of plenty of systems and you could get high civilian casualties there.
I wasn't arguing the point that North Korean artillery couldn't devastate a populated area, just that the "Seoul in a Sea of Fire" stuff is pretty hokey. No, 10 million people are not going to die in a sea of fire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
