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Loaned 2.7M won to a Korean, can't get it back...What to do?
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Capo

Joined: 09 Sep 2007

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:03 pm Post subject:

i often see flyers for people who promise to get back any money that is owned to you.... I presume they'll apply the pressure and take a decent cut, but get ur money back all the same.

salutbonjour

Joined: 22 Jan 2013

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:38 am Post subject:

hiamnotcool wrote:

salutbonjour wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

salutbonjour wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2880244

What a ridiculous article.

"The brothels in Korea began to spread after the country first opened its port in 1876 through a diplomatic pact, causing ethnic quarters for Japanese migrants to sprout up in Busan, Wonsan and Incheon."

"The first red-light district was built in Busan in 1902 by the Japanese authority in Korea to prevent sexual transmitted diseases. One of the first brothels in the area was built on July 24, 1902 by a Japanese named Ueno Yasta."

I'm no expert in Korean history but I know there had to be a red light district in Korea somewhere before Japan arrived. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take any historical account that comes out of Korea seriously. This is a literate country, I don't understand how stuff like this can be published and generally accepted.

A brothel is an organized business. Making the first brothel doesn't mean that you are the first to organize prostitution. It's possible that the Japanese were the first to organize something beyond 300 grams of rice for 30 minutes of clam.

A lot of things are possible but that is highly unlikely. I'm not well versed on the topic of what constitutes a brothel but here is a link

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brothel?s=t

And your argument is that sex might have been sold in a house?

My argument is that the Japanese might have been the first to organize a business where prostitutes are employees providing a service instead of direct prostitution whether done within or outside of one's abode.

No I actually think that there were brothels in Korea before Japanese arrived. Like I said in the full post maybe the Japanese just introduced their model. What is your definition of a brothel or red light district anyway? I think this comes down to whether or not you agree with the author. I disagree with the author and I think the book makes some ridiculous claims, but if you are creating another case and arguing that the Japanese brought more organization or official status to prostitution then I still disagree, but I think you have a valid argument and if you can provide some proof then I will buy it. The whole article written by the author just sounds like a face saving/blame the Japanese document.

I would also like to note that we are talking about black market activity here, and if it wasn't black market then the stigma would often lead to women being secretive about their line of work in official documents. The Japanese introduced health clinics to treat the prostitutes which might have led to more accurate records being kept of their numbers and locations. Prior to the arrival of the Japanese the practice may have just been kept in the dark which would have lead to the numbers being much smaller on official accounts. I have noticed most negative stories about Korea come from foreign studies or accounts of foreigners visiting. I rarely see them coming from a native Korean unless of course the intended audience of this account is only going to be fellow Koreans.

My reasoning is just the way organized Prostitution is just so widespread here. I don't see how it could have become so engrained in the culture if it was introduced as late as the 1900's. I am admittedly not well read on the subject. My experience tells me Korean values are pretty hard to shake from the local population.

Anyway, if you have some more substantial records or something I will look at them.

The argument made by the book is that it is the first brothel in Korea. If that is right then there is no record showing an older brothel in Korea, if that is wrong then there will be a record showing the existence of an older brothel in Korea. Showing the non-existence of something is not a viable option compared to showing the existence of something, otherwise religion would not be such a divisive issue.

The burden of the proof is on you.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:25 pm Post subject:

salutbonjour wrote:

If I'm going to prove anything you are going to have to tell me what constitutes a brothel. Brothel is actually an english word, and I have provided the english definition of what it means. I can easily show there were brothels like that in Korea before the 1900's. Maybe you have a different definition though, if so let me know what it is and then maybe I can show you that that type of brothel existed here before 1900 too. Maye I can't though, I'm not sure what you consider a brothel.

salutbonjour

Joined: 22 Jan 2013

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:19 pm Post subject:

hiamnotcool wrote:

salutbonjour wrote:

Well the original argument was over whether a place of prostitution existed where the employees (versus the boss of the establishment) were prostitutes who did it as employment. As in they received a salary from the establishment rather than directly from the customer (whether the base for the salary rate might be).

Now, failing that, I would be interested in seeing what kind of material you have whatever it is, since it is relevant to that guy's book.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:58 pm Post subject:

salutbonjour wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

salutbonjour wrote:

Well here is what I could jsut find through google about the Kisaeng.

"The career of most kisaeng was very short, generally peaking at age 16 or 17, and over by age 22.[8] Only a few kisaeng were able to maintain their business for very long beyond this time. It may be for this reason that the kisaeng training institutes accepted entrants as young as eight.[9] All kisaeng, even those who did not work as prostitute or entertainers, were obliged by law to retire at age 50. The best prospect most kisaeng had for long-term support was through becoming the concubine of a patron. However, even this was not an option unless their patron first purchased them from the state, which few men of the Joseon period could afford. Thus, most former kisaeng went on to work in or manage a local tavern.[10]"

-Went on to work in or manage a local tavern AKA ......

"Joseon Dynasty kisaeng houses were typically located near the center of a town, often close to the marketplace.[32] They were laid out to create a welcoming effect; in many cases, a location was chosen with a fine view,[33] and the area around the house was carefully landscaped with an ornamental pool and plantings.[34]"

"Other large concentrations existed around army camps, particularly along the northern border. For instance, in the time of King Sejong in the 15th century, there were some 60 kisaeng attached to the army base at Yeongbyeon.[45] In these areas, kisaeng essentially filled the role of wives for the army, and their role was commensurately more focused on domestic tasks than on entertainment."

- This one is a can of worms I will never open.

"An overwhelming silence hangs over the official histories of Korea when it comes to the kisaeng.[51] They enter only occasionally into official records such as the Goryeosa or Joseon Wangjo Sillok. Yet references to kisaeng are quite widespread in the "anecdotal histories" of later Joseon, and Silhak thinkers such as Yi Ik and Dasan gave some thought to their role and station in society. Even today, many formal histories of Korea pay little or no heed to the story of the kisaeng. For example, Ki-baek Lee's New History of Korea does not contain a single reference to the kisaeng."

- I wonder why that is? Like I said this is a dark area where records would be hard to unearth. I imagine their history has been carried by word of mouth rather than through academic study.

"Just as the origin of the kisaeng is unclear, so is their precise relation to other strata of society. The female entertainers who appear in records are exclusively kisaeng of the court, and are recorded as slaves of the government.[59]"

- Again, there is a large dark area there.

"During the brief and violent reign of Yeonsan-gun, 1494�1506, kisaeng became symbolic of royal excess. Yeonsan-gun treated women as primarily objects of pleasure, and made even the medicinal kisaeng (yakbang gisaeng) into entertainers.[62] Yeonsan-gun brought 1,000 women and girls from the provinces to serve as palace kisaeng; many of them were paid from the public treasury.[63]"

-There were sex workers being paid a salary

And

"The Gabo Reform of 1895 officially abolished the class system of Joseon dynasty, and slavery as well. From that year forward, all kisaeng became nominally free. In practice, many kisaeng, like many other slaves, continued in servitude for many years. In addition, many of those who were freed had no alternative career; they continued as entertainers, now without the protections afforded by kisaeng status. During the subsequent decade, many of these kisaeng went to elsewhere to work."

-A significant amout of sex workers with no career are then set out into society, what would they do for money? And this was in 1895.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:59 pm Post subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kisaeng sorry there is the article.

jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:10 pm Post subject:

Loan as much money as your willing to lose. For me it's at about 200,000 won.

Hugo85

Joined: 27 Aug 2010

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:25 pm Post subject:

hiamnotcool wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kisaeng

sorry there is the article.

Good job

Kuval

Joined: 19 Aug 2012

Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject:

Mosley wrote:

I'm blown away by two things:

1. A foreign EFL teacher would lend 2.7 mill to Korean casual aquaintances.

2. A foreign EFL teacher would HAVE 2.7 mill to lend to Korean casual aquaintances.

I'm kinda with you on this.

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