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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:03 am Post subject: The NRA and the ACLU |
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These two organizations are not equivalent.
Parallel Disdain for . . .
| Mayor Bloomberg wrote: |
| [I]n New York City, some don't have the courage to stand up to special interests on the left and support common sense policing tactics like stop and frisk. We don't need extremists on the left or the right running our Police Department - whether it's the NRA or the NYCLU. |
. . . the Gun Lobby and a Civil Rights Group
| Conor Friedersdorf wrote: |
| There is, however, good reason for Bloomberg to regard them as equivalents, given his world view. The organizations, different from one another in many ways (the awfulness of Wayne LaPierre among them), are equivalent insofar as they both regard the civil liberties protected by the Constitution as absolutes, not suggestions politicians are free to disregard if they conclude a given right is impractical. Unless the Constitution is amended, certain policies just aren't on the table. Unlike the NRA and the NYACLU, Mayor Bloomberg doesn't believe that. |
Even for an authoritarian like Bloomberg, the direct comparison is unfortunate. The ACLU protects unpopular speech in all its forms, whereas the NRA cares only about selling weaponry. The two organizations have nothing to do with one another.
I really question Bloomberg's intelligence.
Last edited by Kuros on Wed May 01, 2013 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:41 am Post subject: Re: The NRA and the ACLU |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I really question Bloomberg's intelligence. |
He's just been in office too long now, his ego has taken over, and there are no consequences for his dumb remarks (since his political career is now done), so he doesn't have to think things out any more.
He's not dumb, just becoming a typical long-in-the-tooth politician. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: The NRA and the ACLU |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I really question Bloomberg's intelligence. |
You shouldn't. He's trying to associate one thing with the negative sentiments already associated with another. This is how they roll, Kuros. Associate X with Y, when Y is already associated with the enemy of the revolution, and then X becomes counter-revolutionary. That's why we're in the situation we're in!
Anyway, Bloomberg knows that absent stop and frisk NYC becomes Chicago which is becoming Detroit which is becoming South Africa which is becoming Zimbabwe which is becoming Congo. Lots of real estate in NYC.. Hundreds of billions.. No amount of ACLU crying is going to get Bloomberg and his ilk in the Upper West Side to let Jerome and Jose wander about unmolested by the police. Instead, the ACLU needs to be made an example of. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: The NRA and the ACLU |
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| Titus wrote: |
Anyway, Bloomberg knows that absent stop and frisk NYC becomes Chicago which is becoming Detroit which is becoming South Africa which is becoming Zimbabwe which is becoming Congo. Lots of real estate in NYC.. Hundreds of billions. No amount of ACLU crying is going to get Bloomberg and his ilk in the Upper West Side to let Jerome and Jose wander about unmolested by the police. Instead, the ACLU needs to be made an example of. |
Aw, you have a soft spot for Bambino.
Here's what the ACLU does.
| Quote: |
Litigation:
In May 2011, the NYCLU filed a federal lawsuit challenging the NYPD�s unlawful practice of detaining, questioning and searching innocent New Yorkers who are riding in livery cars. The NYPD uses its Taxi/Livery Inspection Program (TRIP) to expand the reach of its stop-and-frisk practices. On May 15, 2012 the case reached a settlement, under which NYPD officers have been instructed not to question, frisk, search or demand identification from livery passengers unless the officer has independent suspicion of criminal behavior.
In March 2012, the NYCLU, along with Latino Justice PRLDEF and The Bronx Defenders, filed a federal class-action lawsuit challenging the NYPD�s Operation Clean Halls program, a part of the department�s stop-and-frisk program that allows police officers to patrol thousands of private apartment buildings across New York City. The Clean Halls program violates the rights of residents of those buildings and their guests � largely black and Latino New Yorkers. The NYCLU created videos documenting the detrimental consequences that Operation Clean Halls has on the everyday lives of impacted New Yorkers. The case is currently in the discovery phase of litigation. |
It keeps the police honest.
Here's the wastefulness of Stop and Frisk.
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In 2012, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 533,042 times
473,300 were totally innocent (89 percent).
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And its lazy.
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Myth #1: Stop-and-Frisk reduces crime and keeps people safer.
�[Stop-and-Frisk] is a program that is effective� you used to not be able to walk down the streets of this city safely and today you can walk every neighborhood during the day and most neighborhoods at night. .� � Ray Kelly
FACT: No research has ever proven the effectiveness of New York City�s stop-and-frisk regime, and the small number of arrests, summonses, and guns recovered demonstrates that the practice is ineffective. Crime data also do not support the claim that New York City is safer because of the practice. While violent crimes fell 29 percent in New York City from 2001 to 2010, other large cities experienced larger violent crime declines without relying on stop and frisk abuses: 59 percent in Los Angeles, 56 percent in New Orleans, 49 percent in Dallas, and 37 percent in Baltimore.
Stop-and-Frisk abuses corrode trust between the police and communities, which makes everyone less safe. Don�t believe us? Then listen to NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly in 2000: �[A] large reservoir of good will was under construction when I left the Police Department in 1994. It was called community policing. But it was quickly abandoned for tough-sounding rhetoric and dubious stop-and-frisk tactics that sowed new seeds of community mistrust.� |
Community policing worked. It was preventative and nuanced. It was abandoned in favor of the patrol method and the bureaucratization of the police. |
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Noliving
Joined: 01 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: The NRA and the ACLU |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Even for an authoritarian like Bloomberg, the direct comparison is unfortunate. The ACLU protects unpopular speech in all its forms, whereas the NRA cares only about selling weaponry. The two organizations have nothing to do with one another.
I really question Bloomberg's intelligence. |
Yes and no to that, they obviously care about the industry but they are also big on gun safety training. I think you would be surprised at the quality of their gun safety training. The NRA trains an enormous amount of law enforcement each year as well. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:31 am Post subject: Re: The NRA and the ACLU |
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| Noliving wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Even for an authoritarian like Bloomberg, the direct comparison is unfortunate. The ACLU protects unpopular speech in all its forms, whereas the NRA cares only about selling weaponry. The two organizations have nothing to do with one another.
I really question Bloomberg's intelligence. |
Yes and no to that, they obviously care about the industry but they are also big on gun safety training. I think you would be surprised at the quality of their gun safety training. The NRA trains an enormous amount of law enforcement each year as well. |
I choose to take your word on it. For a long time, I really felt nothing at all towards the NRA. LaPierre's press conference after Newtown changed all that. He made hysterical charges that "gun rights" were under attack. As a result, many many weapons were sold. For many of us, this became the NRA's defining moment. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Community policing worked. It was preventative and nuanced. It was abandoned in favor of the patrol method and the bureaucratization of the police. |
Kuros, you're too efficiency and legalistic minded. The TV government/police aren't real.
S&F is supposed to do this:
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| A Good Reason to Leave New York |
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/a-good-reason-to-leave-new-york/275501/
The Grand Concourse will be upper middle class in our lifetime. Fortunes will be made. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:17 am Post subject: |
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The ACLU is like the NRA because it is
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Klein does identify the counterpart to the NRA when he denounces
| Joe Klein wrote: |
| the gun lobby�obviously�and its liberal doppelganger, the civil-libertarian lobby. Innumerable other groups fester, waiting for the chance to raise funds off the paranoia of their supporters. |
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The people should be paranoid.
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| What exactly has the festering "civil libertarian lobby" done to offend Joe Klein? He doesn't say. Since the column is about the NRA's gun victory, surely there must be some comparable outrage that these purists have won by forcing their will on Washington and defeating the will of the public. It's so obvious, in fact, that Klein doesn't even need to name it. The point is that both sides are extremists, and the middle of the road�where Obama and Klein live�is where you'll find the righteous kind of anger. |
I have more to say about Joe Klein in this thread. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Marijuana arrests are four times as likely for blacks
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| This disparity had grown steadily from a decade before, and in some states, including Iowa, Minnesota and Illinois, blacks were around eight times as likely to be arrested. |
In Kentucky, blacks are six times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession. In DC, blacks are eight times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession.
Full ACLU .pdf here
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| [T]he War on Marijuana has, quite simply, served as a vehicle for police to target communities of color. To the extent that the goal of these hundreds of thousands of arrests has been to curb the availability or consumption of marijuana, they have failed.11 In 2002, there were 14.5 million people aged 12 or older � 6.2% of the total population � who had used marijuana in the previous month; by 2011, that number had increased to 18.1 million � 7.0% of the total population.12 According to a World Health Organization survey of 17 countries, 42.2% of Americans have tried marijuana in their lifetime.13 The 2010 National Survey on Drug Use and Health reported similar numbers � 39.26% of Americans surveyed reported having used marijuana in their lifetimes � and over 17.4 million Americans had used marijuana in the past month.14 Between 2009 and 2010, 30.4% of 18- to 25-year-olds reported having used marijuana at least once in the past month. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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What is your point Kuros? Criminal behaviour is not dependent on whether the suspect has a gun. You can mug someone with your fists if the victim is elderly or weak. The point of stop and frisk is to intimidate people who they think of as criminally minded, not to actually find guns.
I think stop and frisk is awful, but I don't believe this to be a very persuasive argument against it.
How about a chart showing all kinds of contraband found, like marijuana, brass knuckles etc... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| What is your point Kuros? Criminal behaviour is not dependent on whether the suspect has a gun. You can mug someone with your fists if the victim is elderly or weak. The point of stop and frisk is to intimidate people who they think of as criminally minded, not to actually find guns. |
Absolutely. The policy is about intimidation. If the NYPD wanted to fight crime, they'd abandon Stop and Frisk and begin investigations and resume regular patrols. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:11 am Post subject: |
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http://nypost.com/2013/09/19/gunstats/
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| In the month after federal judge Shira Scheindlin’s decision that the police procedure is unconstitutional, shootings spiked nearly 13 percent — and gun seizures plummeted more than 17 percent, The Post has learned. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: ... |
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The ACLU is a liberal organization that can do something a conservative organization simply can't: defend the other side.
It is the epitome of patriotism in America. |
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