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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
I agree Korea is making a big effort to deal with immigrants. I actually favor the South Korean approach to helping immigrants assimilate over the USA approach because I think it will lead to less problems down the line. I can't buy into the idea that is ever going to be a mulitucultural society. It may be multi-racial, but if it is I think that will be another taboo subject here. Like I said I don't have an issue with this approach, I just think it's the way it is. The 1st generation or naturalized citizens that make their home here will have their work cut out for them when it comes to fitting in and making a life for themselves. That is not something I see changing in Korea anytime soon, or ever for that matter. I think that is where the term xenophobic gets placed here, the local population seems to be overwhelmingly scared of the changes and influx of foreigners would bring. Maybe they their fears are well placed too, I don't know.
As for NET's, I do have a problem with that situation. I mean come on, we are at most here for a few years. I can still can't wrap my head around the aura that surrounds us wherever we go here. It is truly strange. |
Assimilation vs. multiculturalism
I think assimilation presupposes that the larger issue is with the foreigners and their ability to fit in, rather than the society's unwillingness to accept them.
Asian people that appear Korean may be able to assimilate and have few issues after learning the local language/customs, but I doubt that assimilation program will do much to those that one can easily spot as being non-Korean.
In other words, the local media bias, the lack of government protection (via laws) and the lack of education make it impossible for other minorities to assimilate into the society. |
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rockbilly
Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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| Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:08 am Post subject: A State of Mind |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| Asian people that appear Korean may be able to assimilate and have few issues after learning the local . . .language/customs |
Good point, and you got me thinking about a conversation I had in Busan some years back.
One of our Korean English teachers confided in us "natives," while out to dinner one night, that he was part Japanese. But very hush-hush, and "don't you dare tell anyone," he said. Granny was Japanese, a leftover from the colonial days, but he didn't admit the Japanese ancestry to any other Koreans.
Wow, did that ever get me thinking! Busan had a Japanese-MAJORITY population as late as 1945. Where did all the Japanese go? Clearly, they didn't all go back to Japan. That Korean teacher is probably far, far, FAR from being alone in having a Japanese grandparent that he pretends doesn't, or didn't, exist.
Imagine forward. Twenty years from now, forty, a hundred. How many Koreans a hundred years from now will have a Vietnamese granny but claim up and down to be "pure Korean."
It's been going on for a long, long time. Ever notice how many Koreans will boast of being descended from Confucius, or having some sort of Chinese familial roots, but will nonetheless insist upon being "pure Korean"?
So that's how this thing will play out. Koreans will just go on pretending to be "pure." They never have been, never will be, but since it's a state of mind we're dealing with . . . |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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It's just an odd way of thinking. Pure what? Pure nonsense.
Might as well add it isn't unique to Korea, since that seems necessary in every discussion. Chinese Han are proud to be Han, whatever that is. People the world over are proud of their heritage or ancestry or whatever set of events caused them to be born where they were and fed all their cultural baggage. We just never stop coming up with ways to convince ourselves we're special I guess. It's pretty tiresome. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| joelove wrote: |
| We just never stop coming up with ways to convince ourselves we're special I guess. It's pretty tiresome. |
Everyone needs to believe they have value in some way, for their own self-esteem.
The problem arises when you believe you are better than everyone else. Or that you are worthless if you are not number 1. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Makes sense. Just wondering why people are proud of where they are from or what group they think they belong to. It's at the heart of a lot of conflict. People have killed one another over these ideas. When you belong to one, then you don't belong to the other. Each is exclusive and believes the same nonsense, and there the trouble begins. Identifying so strongly with an idea of belonging to a group, as opposed to another group, is dangerous stuff and people will kill to protect that idea. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| joelove wrote: |
| Makes sense. Just wondering why people are proud of where they are from or what group they think they belong to. It's at the heart of a lot of conflict. People have killed one another over these ideas. When you belong to one, then you don't belong to the other. Each is exclusive and believes the same nonsense, and there the trouble begins. Identifying so strongly with an idea of belonging to a group, as opposed to another group, is dangerous stuff and people will kill to protect that idea. |
Well you can thank Europe from 1648-1945 for that. Of course it happened other places too, but if you want to know why, study European history in that time period. We went from a point where it was more about loyalty to one's sovereign than ethnicity. Then the forces of ethnonationalism and colonialism was unleashed. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Just to chime in with an aside here, Korea is already multi-cultural.
Although they are dying now those that lived through the Japanese Occupation period have a very different culture to other Koreans although some Japanese customs remain like walking to the left (this is slowly changing) and not smoking in front of seniors or women not smoking in public.
The post occupation generation may not remember the war but they will remember the extreme poverty and the extreme work they did to lift the country.
The 386 generation fought for democracy and some of their friends died fighting, as well as residents of Jeolla-do.
The 20's generation are the 3rd generation with money and the household debt figures show they have been much more successful at spending mum, dad and the banks money than mum and dad were.
Not to mention that the lack of a developed service sector means these 20 somethings are overqualified for the jobs that actually exist so foreigners are bought in to do these jobs while the 20 somethings spend their time and mum and dad's money at starbucks.
Add to that the differences between Korean men and women, buddhists and the different form of Christians, Korea is already dealing with multiculturalism even if they wear Hanboks twice a year.
And due to the many wars fought either with Korea or using Korea as a transit point Korea is multi-racial too. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
Just to chime in with an aside here, Korea is already multi-cultural.
Although they are dying now those that lived through the Japanese Occupation period have a very different culture to other Koreans although some Japanese customs remain like walking to the left (this is slowly changing) and not smoking in front of seniors or women not smoking in public.
The post occupation generation may not remember the war but they will remember the extreme poverty and the extreme work they did to lift the country.
The 386 generation fought for democracy and some of their friends died fighting, as well as residents of Jeolla-do.
The 20's generation are the 3rd generation with money and the household debt figures show they have been much more successful at spending mum, dad and the banks money than mum and dad were.
Not to mention that the lack of a developed service sector means these 20 somethings are overqualified for the jobs that actually exist so foreigners are bought in to do these jobs while the 20 somethings spend their time and mum and dad's money at starbucks.
Add to that the differences between Korean men and women, buddhists and the different form of Christians, Korea is already dealing with multiculturalism even if they wear Hanboks twice a year.
And due to the many wars fought either with Korea or using Korea as a transit point Korea is multi-racial too. |
It's multi cultural like the international foods section at wal mart is multi cultural. Everything here has to fall under the umbrella of Korean culture in some way, shape, or form. I don't see that as a mutli cultural society. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| It's multi cultural like the international foods section at wal mart is multi cultural. Everything here has to fall under the umbrella of Korean culture in some way, shape, or form. I don't see that as a mutli cultural society. |
Thanks for that, I forgot to mention company culture as well. Samsung is run like a 1930's Japanese electronics company, Hyundai are seen as a rough heavy hitting company, Doosan is extremely old school Korea and SK is trying to be a modern western company with the abolition of titles having caused major problems to middle-management.
Culture includes shared experiences and there is nothing shared between the occupation generation and todays 20 somethings, except a family relationship.
As far as I know a Christian cannnot believe that all Koreans descended from Dan-gun on Mt Baekdu, they have a different version of events.
Compulsory military service tends to make men more conservative and old school Korean than women, although this is a generalisation as is any cultural analysis.
I believe that Korea is highly multicultural, just look at what people wear to work each day.
A lot of people talking about being Korean, don't know what being Korean really is. I've lived here for 7 years with a Korean wife and a mostly Korean daughter and I still don't know what it is. The conclusion I've come to is it doesn't really exist.
The extreme Nationalism introduced by Park Jung-hee isn't Korean culture. The late President Park was taught that while studying in Japanese Military Academy. This is also where the extreme xenophobia comes from.
As for Korean blood, this was a theory concocted in 1908 to deal with the attempted genocide of Korean culture and people by the Japanese.
I think it's a great thing that all of these cultures live together in a somewhat harmonious way, but while there are common elements, Korea is already multi-cultural and it will become more so as more Koreans live abroad and more people from abroad come to live here.
I do not dislike Korean culture, but I tend to have an extreme dislike for the elements of Japanese culture some Koreans try to maintain as there own. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| joelove wrote: |
| Makes sense. Just wondering why people are proud of where they are from or what group they think they belong to. It's at the heart of a lot of conflict. People have killed one another over these ideas. When you belong to one, then you don't belong to the other. Each is exclusive and believes the same nonsense, and there the trouble begins. Identifying so strongly with an idea of belonging to a group, as opposed to another group, is dangerous stuff and people will kill to protect that idea. |
Well you can thank Europe from 1648-1945 for that. Of course it happened other places too, but if you want to know why, study European history in that time period. We went from a point where it was more about loyalty to one's sovereign than ethnicity. Then the forces of ethnonationalism and colonialism was unleashed. |
I'm not sure what you're referring to but I'm not sure it matters. It's got nothing to do with a particular place or time in history, at least I doubt it does. I think it's simple to explain but not all that easy to really understand, if that makes any sense. It's sounding a bit philosophical and all, or talking about psychology and such, but it's worth trying to see what is going on in our own thinking too. I'm not interested in singling out any group of people, but it's easier to see these things I suppose after living abroad a long time in several different countries, or just getting older too, and seeing the futility of the same old nonsense that causes the same old conflicts.
From a young age we are taught that we belong to a group, taught to be nationalistic or regional, slowly and surely persuaded that this is who we are, and what we are comfortable with, and the culture trains us well without even trying to. People are hungry for a sense of identity and belonging, but this leads to exclusion, which becomes a habit too. Whether the group is small or in the millions, the idea is the same. The idea takes a big important place in the mind. It's really simple and easy to see. The fact of having a nationality or ethnicity is no big deal. That happens to everybody and it's all the same all over the world. The problem is that it becomes psychologically important to people too, well trained as they are to follow all the weight culture has heaped on them.
In Korea then, as an example, though I am not trying to single out a group, but it's a Korea-based forum, you have lots of people get upset over the actions of a foreigner. Why have they made this division between themselves and the foreigner? How are they so different, other than a bunch of superficial cultural stuff that they believe is so important? What really sets people off anyway? Surely it comes to back to thinking they are part of some larger group, which is just an idea, a dangerous one that is terribly important to an awful lot of people. They get violent over it, and will fight to maintain the idea of them being different, special really. And it just goes on and on as it always has all over the world. It's really baffling.
Unless I'm way off base, this is a simple version of what is going on. Call it junk philosophy or whatever. It's just an explanation too. It doesn't really understand or fix anything, but seeing this crap go on all your life, you got to wonder why the same old nonsense never seems to go away. And it won't either, because this hunger for identity and nationalism and belonging and being exclusive and cultural stuff will always be more important to way too many people than just being people without all that. I don't know how we can cast it all aside, other than to see what poison it is. We're too well trained I guess. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| joelove wrote: |
Unless I'm way off base, this is a simple version of what is going on. Call it junk philosophy or whatever. It's just an explanation too. It doesn't really understand or fix anything, but seeing this crap go on all your life, you got to wonder why the same old nonsense never seems to go away. And it won't either, because this hunger for identity and nationalism and belonging and being exclusive and cultural stuff will always be more important to way too many people than just being people without all that. I don't know how we can cast it all aside, other than to see what poison it is. We're too well trained I guess. |
I think the reasons why this occurs time and time again are somewhat sophisticated, if only because there are so many of them.
Some people lack empathy, thus are unable to determine how their actions/words make others feel.
Some people are oblivious to what's going on.
Some are racists/nationalists because of how they were brought up.
There are numerous systems at play that sustain the segregation of people. You have politics, religion, gender divide, race, ethnicity, geography, school/parent education - all of these help to create one's identity and serve to perpetuate racist/nationalist notions.
Then you have the short life span of human beings - generations change and forget what went on in the past, and history books don't really help. The ideas of peace/harmony die off and give birth to those of segregation/hatred and vice versa (when the sentiment reaches extreme levels, it starts to level off).
Korea is not unique in terms of racism/nationalism/discrimination. These notions exist everywhere in different forms and at different stages (in some cases, increasing, in others, decreasing). To this day, however, I do not get people that are absolutely oblivious to the existing racism/nationalism/discrimination and/or are justifying them because they exist elsewhere.
Therein lies the problem - while humanity made great strides technologically, mentally the progress has been minimal.
Last edited by maximmm on Mon May 13, 2013 2:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well you can thank Europe from 1648-1945 for that. Of course it happened other places too, but if you want to know why, study European history in that time period. We went from a point where it was more about loyalty to one's sovereign than ethnicity. Then the forces of ethnonationalism and colonialism was unleashed. |
What kind of nonsense is this!? |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
Therein lies the problem - while humanity made great strides technologically, mentally the progress has been minimal. |
So it seems. Man my above reads like I was on drugs. But just like anyone else I guess I'd like to understand some things. This seems to be about as far as I can get. I doubt it's any type of progress. There is perhaps a strong need to realize what poison we believe. It doesn't help to go on teaching kids their country is the best and to have them worship pictures of people or flags, sing songs of self-adulation, as it seems the national anthem is no more than self-praise, and believe they are different and special just because they were born. The opposite, if that's what it is, ought to be taught, because this stuff carries over into old age and on into death for so, so many, who we hope would know better, but who've had it crammed down their throats all their lives, and believe it. It's really all so bloody obvious too, that's what such a mystery. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| big_fella1 wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| It's multi cultural like the international foods section at wal mart is multi cultural. Everything here has to fall under the umbrella of Korean culture in some way, shape, or form. I don't see that as a mutli cultural society. |
Thanks for that, I forgot to mention company culture as well. Samsung is run like a 1930's Japanese electronics company, Hyundai are seen as a rough heavy hitting company, Doosan is extremely old school Korea and SK is trying to be a modern western company with the abolition of titles having caused major problems to middle-management.
Culture includes shared experiences and there is nothing shared between the occupation generation and todays 20 somethings, except a family relationship.
As far as I know a Christian cannnot believe that all Koreans descended from Dan-gun on Mt Baekdu, they have a different version of events.
Compulsory military service tends to make men more conservative and old school Korean than women, although this is a generalisation as is any cultural analysis.
I believe that Korea is highly multicultural, just look at what people wear to work each day.
A lot of people talking about being Korean, don't know what being Korean really is. I've lived here for 7 years with a Korean wife and a mostly Korean daughter and I still don't know what it is. The conclusion I've come to is it doesn't really exist.
The extreme Nationalism introduced by Park Jung-hee isn't Korean culture. The late President Park was taught that while studying in Japanese Military Academy. This is also where the extreme xenophobia comes from.
As for Korean blood, this was a theory concocted in 1908 to deal with the attempted genocide of Korean culture and people by the Japanese.
I think it's a great thing that all of these cultures live together in a somewhat harmonious way, but while there are common elements, Korea is already multi-cultural and it will become more so as more Koreans live abroad and more people from abroad come to live here.
I do not dislike Korean culture, but I tend to have an extreme dislike for the elements of Japanese culture some Koreans try to maintain as there own. |
They have incorporated aspects of other cultures into their own culture, but it has remained their own. I don't see it as multicultural relative to other societies out there. If you are looking for what Korean culture is just research Korean history prior to the Japanese occupation. The country has almost always had some kind of division or factionalism going on and it has always been class conscious to the extreme. It was also xenophobic before Japan arrived, it's possible it wasn't as nationalist though. I'm admittedly not well read on the subject, but a little research into the different classes and how far back in history they go will show you Korea does have it's own culture. It will also explain the insane focus the cultures has on exams. |
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