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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:48 am Post subject: |
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I agree with what you say, but
You forgot the main reply:
If you don't like it, go home! |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
why more FTs in Korea over the past 10 years? Demand to be sure. That proves the point however that IF Foreigners truly were the victims of a campaign to demonize them, there is NO way the demand for FTs would have continued to grow and reach 20 000+. not a chance on Earth this happens.
As for the hit piece comment, I find your response interesting but wrong.�Some show me HOW MANY hit pieces concerning FTs were aired or published over the last year and according to what content constitutes a hit piece and then we can discuss this. Otherwise, all this is is perception, assumption and all too often people trying to over dramatize. My position on this is content based but not based on a serious empirical study. I just read Korean media and watch it and can tell you the hit pieces on FTs are not that frequent and certainly do not have the reach some people say they have. That of course is my experience.
Finally and always, if such hit pieces bother a foreigner then for Pete's sake do something about it! You can bet I did and still do. You can bet my Korean friends do as well. So, next time you see what you consider to be a hit piece, get off your butt and do something: write the paper or the station for example and get others to do so. Or, whine about it on an online board.
What else can you do? Realize that how YOU behave and what YOU do has an impact on how FTs are perceived. So, try not behaving like an ass clown out there for example. Get involved in your community (there are tons of ways) and project something positive. |
Same old story here, tell the FTs not to behave like ass clowns as if we are some kind of ambassadors here. I know from the ridiculous conversations I have with locals about NET's that we have obtained a bad rep through the press. If you want to blame us, then I would challenge you to show me some statistics about how harmful we are to Korean society. Our impact here aside from education is minimal.
I think you will agree that Korea doesn't want us here long term. It doesn't really want any foreigners (including immigrants) here long term. It may want their money, and the benefits they can offer, but it doesn't want their presence. That should say it all. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
I think you will agree that Korea doesn't want us here long term. It doesn't really want any foreigners (including immigrants) here long term. It may want their money, and the benefits they can offer, but it doesn't want their presence. That should say it all. |
I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. I think portions of Korea are largely divided on that issue.
Korea does allow foreigners to stay here long term, and even obtaining a passport is not as much of a hassle as it is elsewhere. Again, the government did want us to teach here, but the media did not. The media is in part criticizing the government, and as such, demonizing the foreigners. Of course, it could also be that the primary aim is to demonize the foreigners, and critique of the government is merely a byproduct of that action (in fact, given that the media is equally open to criticizing the crime rate of the non-NET foreigners, one has to wonder...).
The point is, the Korean media does not speak for all Koreans, or for all Korean political/business entities. The problem is, while that may be true, the Korean media can certainly influence the opinion/perception of the general public in regards to our being here.
Yet, given how fox news is able to openly lie and perpetuate hatred without any problems/lawsuits, what are the odds of the Korean media changing its ways?
They are very small. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
why more FTs in Korea over the past 10 years? Demand to be sure. That proves the point however that IF Foreigners truly were the victims of a campaign to demonize them, there is NO way the demand for FTs would have continued to grow and reach 20 000+. not a chance on Earth this happens.
As for the hit piece comment, I find your response interesting but wrong.�Some show me HOW MANY hit pieces concerning FTs were aired or published over the last year and according to what content constitutes a hit piece and then we can discuss this. Otherwise, all this is is perception, assumption and all too often people trying to over dramatize. My position on this is content based but not based on a serious empirical study. I just read Korean media and watch it and can tell you the hit pieces on FTs are not that frequent and certainly do not have the reach some people say they have. That of course is my experience.
Finally and always, if such hit pieces bother a foreigner then for Pete's sake do something about it! You can bet I did and still do. You can bet my Korean friends do as well. So, next time you see what you consider to be a hit piece, get off your butt and do something: write the paper or the station for example and get others to do so. Or, whine about it on an online board.
What else can you do? Realize that how YOU behave and what YOU do has an impact on how FTs are perceived. So, try not behaving like an ass clown out there for example. Get involved in your community (there are tons of ways) and project something positive. |
Same old story here, tell the FTs not to behave like ass clowns as if we are some kind of ambassadors here. I know from the ridiculous conversations I have with locals about NET's that we have obtained a bad rep through the press. If you want to blame us, then I would challenge you to show me some statistics about how harmful we are to Korean society. Our impact here aside from education is minimal.
I think you will agree that Korea doesn't want us here long term. It doesn't really want any foreigners (including immigrants) here long term. It may want their money, and the benefits they can offer, but it doesn't want their presence. That should say it all. |
The fact the E2 is a one year visa says that FTs have always been considered a temporary short term measure. This seems to be the case with most foreign labor in most countries: they fill a gap.
I am not saying FTs are ambassadors, but they should be aware that how the behave may have an impact as they do stand out in Korea due to simple demographics. The impact made by your average FT is indeed minimal but bad actions can have an impact just like good ones can. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
why more FTs in Korea over the past 10 years? Demand to be sure. That proves the point however that IF Foreigners truly were the victims of a campaign to demonize them, there is NO way the demand for FTs would have continued to grow and reach 20 000+. not a chance on Earth this happens.
As for the hit piece comment, I find your response interesting but wrong.�Some show me HOW MANY hit pieces concerning FTs were aired or published over the last year and according to what content constitutes a hit piece and then we can discuss this. Otherwise, all this is is perception, assumption and all too often people trying to over dramatize. My position on this is content based but not based on a serious empirical study. I just read Korean media and watch it and can tell you the hit pieces on FTs are not that frequent and certainly do not have the reach some people say they have. That of course is my experience.
Finally and always, if such hit pieces bother a foreigner then for Pete's sake do something about it! You can bet I did and still do. You can bet my Korean friends do as well. So, next time you see what you consider to be a hit piece, get off your butt and do something: write the paper or the station for example and get others to do so. Or, whine about it on an online board.
What else can you do? Realize that how YOU behave and what YOU do has an impact on how FTs are perceived. So, try not behaving like an ass clown out there for example. Get involved in your community (there are tons of ways) and project something positive. |
Same old story here, tell the FTs not to behave like ass clowns as if we are some kind of ambassadors here. I know from the ridiculous conversations I have with locals about NET's that we have obtained a bad rep through the press. If you want to blame us, then I would challenge you to show me some statistics about how harmful we are to Korean society. Our impact here aside from education is minimal.
I think you will agree that Korea doesn't want us here long term. It doesn't really want any foreigners (including immigrants) here long term. It may want their money, and the benefits they can offer, but it doesn't want their presence. That should say it all. |
The fact the E2 is a one year visa says that FTs have always been considered a temporary short term measure. This seems to be the case with most foreign labor in most countries: they fill a gap.
I am not saying FTs are ambassadors, but they should be aware that how the behave may have an impact as they do stand out in Korea due to simple demographics. The impact made by your average FT is indeed minimal but bad actions can have an impact just like good ones can. |
Being aware of how we behave applies everywhere in all situations. It isn't just something in Korea. We are adults and we know this. However, if I am constantly reminded of this by the news, our coworkers, or orientation staff, then it does tend to make me feel a little creepy about how much people here are watching me. And if a random Korean wants to judge me based off a news story or a bad experience with a NET than I will feel free to consider them an idiot. I could care less what they think and there is no reason for me to try to make them feel better about my presence. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
I think you will agree that Korea doesn't want us here long term. It doesn't really want any foreigners (including immigrants) here long term. It may want their money, and the benefits they can offer, but it doesn't want their presence. That should say it all. |
I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. I think portions of Korea are largely divided on that issue.
Korea does allow foreigners to stay here long term, and even obtaining a passport is not as much of a hassle as it is elsewhere. Again, the government did want us to teach here, but the media did not. The media is in part criticizing the government, and as such, demonizing the foreigners. Of course, it could also be that the primary aim is to demonize the foreigners, and critique of the government is merely a byproduct of that action (in fact, given that the media is equally open to criticizing the crime rate of the non-NET foreigners, one has to wonder...).
The point is, the Korean media does not speak for all Koreans, or for all Korean political/business entities. The problem is, while that may be true, the Korean media can certainly influence the opinion/perception of the general public in regards to our being here.
Yet, given how fox news is able to openly lie and perpetuate hatred without any problems/lawsuits, what are the odds of the Korean media changing its ways?
They are very small. |
I think it's more of a "not in my backyard" type thing. Yeah, we are in high demand by parents to teach english. The question of where we will live, who we will date, and how long we will stay is another matter altogether though. Most parents want us in their classroom, but not necessarily in their apartment complex. There are exceptions to the rule of course, but those are just exceptions. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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But the media isn't some monolithic entity either. They might have a piece on that NET that got busted, and on their next news program do a report on some English competition and show smiling, helpful NETs participating and looking like good, professional teachers.
While it may seem to NETs that this is a demonization campaign, sorry the stories are way too spaced out, get 3rd billing, and there are far too many examples of foreigners in a positive light for it to be some mass conspiracy. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
But the media isn't some monolithic entity either. They might have a piece on that NET that got busted, and on their next news program do a report on some English competition and show smiling, helpful NETs participating and looking like good, professional teachers.
While it may seem to NETs that this is a demonization campaign, sorry the stories are way too spaced out, get 3rd billing, and there are far too many examples of foreigners in a positive light for it to be some mass conspiracy. |
I agree with part of what you say, any program whether promoting foreigners (sic) in a negative or positive light is a waste of airtime and only reinforces stereotypes.
A few foreigners (sic) here are dirty pedophiles, a few foreigners (sic) here are candidates for Sainthood and everyone else is in between.
But as long as Koreans keep thinking us and foreigners (sic) the culture isn't changing and progress will be slow. We are all people, with all of the qualities and faults that come with that.
I met a guy who lived here and learnt Korean, he now works for the Drug Enforcement Agency in the US translating lugs (telephone recordings) of Koreans involved in the drug trade, I'm not saying all Koreans in the US are drug dealers, but he does have a full time job, no matter how small the percentage of Korean-American drug dealers is.
If you are a new Korean or a Korean resident and a TV show calls wanting to record you, do us all a favour and say no. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
[
I think you will agree that Korea doesn't want us here long term. It doesn't really want any foreigners (including immigrants) here long term. . |
Then why do they have permanent residency visas...and no they are NOT just for foreigners who marry Koreans?
Why do some of these visas allow you to vote in local and provincial elections to list just one way they let you participate in life here?
If Korea didn't want any foreigners here it would make all visas short term and grant very few of them.
But even the E-2 visa has around 30,000
And migrant workers number well over a million here alone
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| Japan has largely rejected imported labor as a solution to its aging workforce, but South Korea is starting to accept it. The number of immigrants has risen sevenfold, to 1.5 million, since 2000. That�s 2.8 percent of the population. Immigrants could make up more than 6 percent by 2030, the government says. �It�s inevitable that we will have to absorb foreign labor to boost our economy,� says Choi Kwang Hae, a director general at the Finance Ministry. |
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/south-koreas-hottest-import-foreign-workers |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
[
I think you will agree that Korea doesn't want us here long term. It doesn't really want any foreigners (including immigrants) here long term. . |
Then why do they have permanent residency visas...and no they are NOT just for foreigners who marry Koreans?
Why do some of these visas allow you to vote in local and provincial elections to list just one way they let you participate in life here?
If Korea didn't want any foreigners here it would make all visas short term and grant very few of them.
But even the E-2 visa has around 30,000
And migrant workers number well over a million here alone
| Quote: |
| Japan has largely rejected imported labor as a solution to its aging workforce, but South Korea is starting to accept it. The number of immigrants has risen sevenfold, to 1.5 million, since 2000. That�s 2.8 percent of the population. Immigrants could make up more than 6 percent by 2030, the government says. �It�s inevitable that we will have to absorb foreign labor to boost our economy,� says Choi Kwang Hae, a director general at the Finance Ministry. |
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/south-koreas-hottest-import-foreign-workers |
Oh look, Korea is more welcoming to foreign workers than Japan. Amazing. Nothing really matters as long as Korea isn't as bad as Japan right?
And why is there a system for foreigners to gain permanent residency? Sometimes it is necessary. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
But the media isn't some monolithic entity either. They might have a piece on that NET that got busted, and on their next news program do a report on some English competition and show smiling, helpful NETs participating and looking like good, professional teachers.
While it may seem to NETs that this is a demonization campaign, sorry the stories are way too spaced out, get 3rd billing, and there are far too many examples of foreigners in a positive light for it to be some mass conspiracy. |
Yeah I watch the news quite often and there are plenty of positive stories about foreigners. I think there are also more than enough negative stories about society too. I'm just saying I think Korean society as a whole is xenophobic, there is a fear and mistrust of a foreign presence here. For that reason it is tightly controlled and monitored. At the end of the day we aren't wanted here forever, just a little while.
Maybe I'm cynical but I think people that keep talking about progress need to take a good look at Korean society and think about whether they are accepting foreigners for the sake of progress or just out of necessity. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
But the media isn't some monolithic entity either. They might have a piece on that NET that got busted, and on their next news program do a report on some English competition and show smiling, helpful NETs participating and looking like good, professional teachers.
While it may seem to NETs that this is a demonization campaign, sorry the stories are way too spaced out, get 3rd billing, and there are far too many examples of foreigners in a positive light for it to be some mass conspiracy. |
Is Korean media a monolithic entity? No.
Does it provide a balanced coverage of the foreigners that reside here? Not at all.
I have yet to see a big wave of media stories depicting foreigners in positive light, while the negative waves that have caused more than half of Korean news outlets to depict foreigners in negative light are too many to count.
Again, in part this is due to the fact that scaremongering sells - that's the news world of today. Furthermore, the more effective the scaremongering, the better it sells - hence the Korean War propaganda image use in the those stories.
Another part of it is the actual xenophobia which is driven by the news media and the fact that we are different. Then there is the pure blood concept, which also reinforces the media bias as well as the exiting xenophobia. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Yeah I watch the news quite often and there are plenty of positive stories about foreigners. I think there are also more than enough negative stories about society too. I'm just saying I think Korean society as a whole is xenophobic, there is a fear and mistrust of a foreign presence here. For that reason it is tightly controlled and monitored. At the end of the day we aren't wanted here forever, just a little while.
Maybe I'm cynical but I think people that keep talking about progress need to take a good look at Korean society and think about whether they are accepting foreigners for the sake of progress or just out of necessity. |
I still very much disagree about balanced coverage - see the post above.
As for necessity vs. true progress... perhaps you are correct.
After all, the government really does things out of necessity, which may well be why we are welcomed by the government much more so than the local media - and on some level, general public. I have mixed feelings about the general public bit.... though this is one nation where walking around with a Korean girlfriend can get you/her punched in the face by some ajoshi. There aren't many other nations like that, are there?!^^ (I've always warned people to be cautious in the close proximity of ajoshis/ajumas - ajumas are particularly dangerous in the supermarkets^^). |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
But the media isn't some monolithic entity either. They might have a piece on that NET that got busted, and on their next news program do a report on some English competition and show smiling, helpful NETs participating and looking like good, professional teachers.
While it may seem to NETs that this is a demonization campaign, sorry the stories are way too spaced out, get 3rd billing, and there are far too many examples of foreigners in a positive light for it to be some mass conspiracy. |
Is Korean media a monolithic entity? No.
Does it provide a balanced coverage of the foreigners that reside here? Not at all.
I have yet to see a big wave of media stories depicting foreigners in positive light, while the negative waves that have caused more than half of Korean news outlets to depict foreigners in negative light are too many to count.
Again, in part this is due to the fact that scaremongering sells - that's the news world of today. Furthermore, the more effective the scaremongering, the better it sells - hence the Korean War propaganda image use in the those stories.
Another part of it is the actual xenophobia which is driven by the news media and the fact that we are different. Then there is the pure blood concept, which also reinforces the media bias as well as the exiting xenophobia. |
I'd say the stories that paint us in a positive light aren't usually "wave" stories. If anything I'd characterize the positive stories as more frequent, some so low key as to barely be noticed, but they are much less "intense". Conversely, the negative stories are relatively rare, but when they do break, they tend to be rather intense.
I think the problem is that many of us confuse frequency with intensity and tend to think that that makes the media xenophobic. The 2 minute fluff piece on some English teacher at a school that gets a prize isn't going to stick in the brain or cause a wave. Stories about diddling kids will.
It's funny, but you talk to disgruntled kyopo types, and I've encountered a few, and they'll rant and rave about how the Korean media worships foreigners and gives them preferential treatment. Some of them even complain that they get treated more poorly if they speak Korean, rather than English!
The grass always seems greener on the other side. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I'd say the stories that paint us in a positive light aren't usually "wave" stories. If anything I'd characterize the positive stories as more frequent, some so low key as to barely be noticed, but they are much less "intense". Conversely, the negative stories are relatively rare, but when they do break, they tend to be rather intense.
I think the problem is that many of us confuse frequency with intensity and tend to think that that makes the media xenophobic. The 2 minute fluff piece on some English teacher at a school that gets a prize isn't going to stick in the brain or cause a wave. Stories about diddling kids will.
It's funny, but you talk to disgruntled kyopo types, and I've encountered a few, and they'll rant and rave about how the Korean media worships foreigners and gives them preferential treatment. Some of them even complain that they get treated more poorly if they speak Korean, rather than English!
The grass always seems greener on the other side. |
When I read the newspapers.... I don't see any positive stories about foreigners that you talk about. I have yet to see proof of the vastly more commonplace positive stories that you speak of - if you or PatrickBusan were to start a blog archiving/listing these stories, that would be most appreciated. Perhaps it would even cheer up those of us sick of the negative stories about foreigners in the Korean media?
Thanks.
Ah, perhaps gyopos can help - seriously. I truly do wish to see that positive coverage of foreigners that you, they and PB see on daily basis - especially if its worth raving/ranting about. I mean the proof of negative media coverage is everywhere, but if I am stuck in this bubble in which negative stories about foreigners seem more ubiquitous than the positive ones, I would certainly want to get out of it. It may well be that the newspapers you read not only cover foreigners in positive light, but they also have images with foreigners depicted as saints. I would really want to see all that and more.
Again, thanks - I look forward to it and I'm not being sarcastic. |
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