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Hawaii of Korea, Naples of Korea, etc
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crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:27 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Don't tell me how my students and friends view me.

Oh this is rich. You've done this with myself and others, ad nauseam.
Quantity over quality SR. Keep em comin.

Who's Your Daddy?

Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:23 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

everything-is-everything wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Sorry, both my 3rd grade students and my Korean friends are capable of seeing me as an American. They'll talk the same way to other NETs.

This is complete bullocks and you know it.

Don't tell me how my students and friends view me.

Sorry, but contrary to your belief, they aren't idiots and can grasp the idea of me being adopted.

But apparently some NETs can't get that and envision me as part of some Korean hive-mind.

Now, there are Koreans whom I have randomly encountered who have been confused, but my friends and 90% of my 3rd grade students "get it".

And yes, they talk the same way to other NETs. The kids speak English to me and they speak English to them and say the same stuff. Most of my Korean friends in my town are also friends with the other NETs and we all hang out together and talk about the same crap together. Most of my Korean friends back home or in the rest of Korea are college educated adults who aren't blathering idiots.

Maybe your Korean friends are random drunk ajosshis or kindergartners.

I once replaced a Gyopo at a job. The Korean english teacher said something along the lines of "wow, I'm happy we finally got a real foreigner."

I walk down the street and hear "Hello 외국인!"

I was standing at an elevator one day, and a little granda looks up to me and says "양놈", then she looks back at the wall like nothing happened. We were just waiting at the elevator together, I hadn't done anything.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:27 pm Post subject:

On a side note but connected, have you noticed how if you ask a Korean to talk about anything in their country e.g. Festivals, historic sites, seaside resorts etc they will nearly always (sorry don't have the exact stats UM) mention that a lot of foreigners attend the festival/visit the site/resort. It's like they can't talk about anything without pointing out that it has international appeal. As if they've been programmed to deliver this kind of spiel every time a foreigner asks them something about Korea. Strange. Last edited by edwardcatflap on Sat May 18, 2013 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 10:04 pm Post subject:

edwardcatflap wrote:

On a side note but connected, have you noticed how if you ask a Korean to talk about anything in their country e.g. Festivals, historic sites, seaside resorts etc they will nearly always (sorry don't have the exact stats UM) mention that a lot of foreigners attend the festival/visit the site/resort. It's like they can't talk about anything without pointing out that it has international appeal. As if they've programmed to deliver this kind of spiel every time a foreigner asks them something about Korea. Strange.

As stated above, they are educated to be mini-ambassadors of Korea to every foreigner they meet. It does make some sense from the perspective that Korea depends economically on foreign trade and business persons should be able to talk about Korea to foreigners, if for no other reason than small talk.

I have to admit to looking for other foreigners when I attend some event and using that to judge the event's popularity. I went to the bullfighting and one-third of the audience seemed to be foreigners. I can say I was the only foreigner in attendance at the memorial events for ex-President Noh this Saturday.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:35 am Post subject:

toby99 wrote:

The stereotyping of adjosshis is something I learned from the Koreans themselves. Back home, I don't walk around assuming all men of a certain age must wear a certain type of clothing, drink a certain type or alcohol, or engage in certain types of behavior. And I didn't do that when I first landed on the peninsula, either. But because the Koreans themselves make these stereotypes and translate them over when they speak English, it shouldn't be surprising when the waygook proceeds to view them in much the same light.

I know plenty of "ajosshis" who don't follow the stereotype. Just like every black kid dressed in baggy clothes isn't a gangbanger, not every Korean middle aged male acts like the stereotype.

Quote:

Oh this is rich. You've done this with myself and others, ad nauseam.
Quantity over quality SR. Keep em comin.

And if you read farther on, you'll see I'm fine with the assumption, as long as people take it both ways. This was to make that point.

But I'll tell you this, odds are I have a closer to clue to what you go through, than you do me.

Quote:

I once replaced a Gyopo at a job. The Korean english teacher said something along the lines of "wow, I'm happy we finally got a real foreigner."

It gets repeatedly inferred that I'm not a "real" foreigner, but rather part of the Korean Brotherhood on here.

I once was attacked by an ajosshi who thought I was Japanese.

I've been treated crappily by Korean clerks until I spoke English and they realize I was foreign.

I've heard "You speak English well" by other NETs at certain events probably as often as people hear "you use chopsticks well".

And I've heard conversations and rants by NETs as racist and bigoted as anything ajosshis would say over the soju table.

I've also had way too many good experiences with both Koreans and NETs to go on the internet and throw hate-filled "vents" on the internet. Always, I try to get people to understand and consider, and respond defensively to bigoted posts.

The point is that it's not a one-way street with everything. And while I get some of the stuff that people complain about on the NET side, I think many people are AWFULLY ignorant about how things go the other way and also tend to suffer a negativity bias.

Quote:

As if they've been programmed to deliver this kind of spiel every time a foreigner asks them something about Korea. Strange

1) I think Koreans in general, have a tendency towards sycophancy at times and seek to tell the speaker what they want to hear, or what they think the person wants to hear. Also, there is the "Why doesn't anyone here speak English?"/Your country exists to entertain me phenomenon that many English-speaking foreigners (or one could say Korean tourists in the Philippines) project.

augustine

Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:40 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

But I'll tell you this, odds are I have a closer to clue to what you go through, than you do me.

Your argument is nonsense. White people who live in larger cities obviously don't know how you deal with your gyopo issues in the small town you live in. So why do you claim to know more about what white people go through overall on a daily basis? You always do this, you create these fake circumstances to justify the apologist, non-biased gyopo stance you've created here. I don't think you're a bad person, but it's hard to believe that you still remain so ignorant.

Mix1

Joined: 08 May 2007

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:51 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

So basically, not only do you blend in like a local in terms of general appearance

I think this is way overstated. Sorry, but most Koreans understand the concept of me being American and treat me as such, even strangers within 30 seconds.

Since we're talking about conversations and friendships here, this is doubly true.

I love how people will say "You don't know what it's like to walk in our non-Korean looking shoes" but then will immediately inform me of how I'm treated as if I don't know myself.

Now, either we both can comment on each other's experiences or not. I'm fine either way. But let's remember to be consistent. Since you hold my experience in skepticism, I consider it fair game to hold yours as well.

Quote:

but you also have a large support group around you of progressive Koreans who have lived abroad and can comfortably mix with non-Koreans.

Actually the people at my church here, and my soccer buds, and most of my coworkers who I hang out with have not lived abroad.

I just make sure to find good friends and I know where to look.

Quote:

probably shelter you from 90% of the stuff a lot of other foreigners often deal with here. In fact, there's plenty of BS and silly stuff you may NEVER experience.

And there's silliness that I've gone through that you will never experience. Did you know that in certain establishments, such as hotels and upscale restaurants, you will get treated better as a Korean if you speak English rather than Korean? In certain times people treat you better because they perceive you to be foreign or worse because you are Korean? Are you aware of how many perks you can sometimes get? I've had Korean patrons asked to move and a couple times, thrown out of bars to make room for the NET group, simply because they wanted to show off.

Yes, I am in a relatively unique position. The position to blend into both and see both sides and experiences. Trust me, on balance, things are not the nightmare they perceive it to be, and both sides often misinterpret the intentions and motives towards the other and bring in their own inherent biases and superiority complexes.

So, not only do I get to experience "your" experience. I get to experience the kyopo experience. And heck, at times I even get to experience the "Korean" experience because other foreigners assume I am another Korean and have no clue what they are saying.

Quote:

Therefore, your experience and perspective here will be RADICALLY DIFFERENT than someone who doesn't blend in at all and/or has no major support group of Korean friends. You may want to consider that.

And they may want to consider that if they hang around in bars or do not seek out good groups of Korean people, that people are not going to meet the nicest Koreans. You have to work at things.

Calling my friends "radically different" is like saying church goers, guys who are into sports, businessmen, and teachers back home are radically different.

First off, your reading comprehension was a bit off here. I never called your friends "radically different" ...I said that about your experience and perspective, and I still believe that. You can believe what you want.

Second, lots of defensiveness and denial going on as well. Not interested in a tit for tat breakdown here though. It's not a pissing contest. I'm sure we experience SOME common things for sure. I've seen examples of everything you wrote above, no biggie. I've got gyopo friends and we've shared perspectives and although some things are similar, most are not.

And I don't negate your experiences, but I wrote what I wrote mostly so OTHERS can see where you are coming from and that your circumstances are way different from theirs... and they can take that into consideration when they read your posts.

toby99

Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Location: Dong-Incheon-by-the-sea, South Korea

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:15 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

toby99 wrote:

I know plenty of "ajosshis" who don't follow the stereotype. Just like every black kid dressed in baggy clothes isn't a gangbanger, not every Korean middle aged male acts like the stereotype.

I stereotype, though. Life's easier and faster that way.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:50 pm Post subject:

augustine wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

But I'll tell you this, odds are I have a closer to clue to what you go through, than you do me.

First, "what white people go through" is an incredibly varied experience, even within small cities and within big cities.

Next, I don't claim to know more about what white people go through vs. other white people. I do claim that I think I have a better idea about what they go through vs. their idea about what I go through.

You say the apologist stance is biased. Is it possible your stance is biased?

I'd also submit that the small town aspect does mimic certain aspects- I to am constantly bombarded with hellos, requests, and talk about me from strangers. Going on a date? Everyone talks and comments about me and my date. GF harassed by some guy who thought I was Chinese. GF and me scolded and clucked over by old ladies for speaking English. Heck one time I was with a girl who wasn't even my gf, just some girl from church and two kids who spent time in the states, and some ladies started hen-pecking us over why our "family" was all speaking English. Random drunk at bar getting belligerent with me for no reason other than I though I was foreign. Some teachers were squeamish to sit next to me during teachers dinners. Sound rather familiar?

Quote:

I've got gyopo friends and we've shared perspectives and although some things are similar, most are not.

Really? How gyopoy are they? I'd say it varies greatly depending on language ability. Those that are relatively fluent would probably have significantly different experiences vs. gyopos and adopted Koreans that have minimal Korean skills. I should have made that distinction.

Quote:

And I don't negate your experiences, but I wrote what I wrote mostly so OTHERS can see where you are coming from and that your circumstances are way different from theirs...

I don't think so. The key reason being the language, which admittedly I failed to raise as a huge point.

Anyways, I'll give 3 long examples of why I lean apologist. I think they serve to illustrate why I think the way I do.

I'm in a bar with others including one of my friends who was a great guy, hated Korea. Korean guy asked us to not smoke. I gladly agree, as one of my rules as a smoker is that if anyone asks me not to, I will (unless in a really scuzzy bar). My friend gets all agitated, and under his breath starts going off on how "He's just picking on us because we're foreign". 5 minutes later, he leaves in a silent huff while the guy drinks on in the other both. 10 minutes later, the guy comes to our table with a free pitcher of beer and a free plate of fruit. His party leaves shortly thereafter. The guy spent 20 bucks on us for about 20 minutes of his fun. During that time, I had to go out for ONE smoke.

Another example- I'm dining with a couple people who tend to take an "us vs. them" attitude towards Korea. We're waiting for our table at the restaurant. When we get our table, they start to take us up to the 2nd floor. My 2 friends get in a huff, about "them" sending us to the crappy seats and why they aren't getting seated at this open table on the first floor that just got finished being wiped down, and place themselves at the open table on the first floor, talking about discrimination, while the flustered hostess tries to explain but can't in English. When my friends ask why I'm not outraged, I just tell em how I used to work in food service too and try not to give the staff lip, they usually know what they are doing. 2 minutes later, a lady with kids and an infant in a stroller are marching up the 2nd floor, folding the stroller, while the waitress lugs up a booster seat to the 2nd floor. At that moment everyone comprehends why they put us on the 2nd floor.

Third story, on a flight overseas with some friends, the stewardess asks me if I can change my window seat to an aisle, randomly. I decline My friends in the next row decline as well. Then I overhear the stewardess asking another passenger to change and mentioning that the lady is the old man's wife and he wants to sit next to her. Upon hearing this, I tell the stewardess that under those circumstances (an old man and his wife), I would be happy to change my seat. The stewardess says "That's so sweat" and leaves to arrange things. My friends just look at me with "Dude, that's your seat, you paid for it." and "Typical ajosshi", they think they can just move us foreigners around" . A few minutes later the stewardess comes back, thanks me for my cooperation and bumps me up to business class, with profound thanks from the old man. Suddenly I'm a "lucky bastard".

What do those three stories have in common? In each of them the some of the NETs involved assumed that there was racism and inferred the worst motives of the Korean people they were interacting with. By the end of the event, it was clear that far from being racist, they were trying to be considerate and caring of all parties involved. Their motives were completely misread. This is why when people come on here claiming racism and generalizing the people here with bigoted terms, I challenge those things. Often, perceived racism is in fact, miscommunication and misinterpretation of people's motives.

Now, have their been times where a spade has been a spade? Absolutely. But I do believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. I worry, that some people start to interpret every action through the negative narrative that they've constructed.

That and some of the posts on here have some pretty ugly language about Koreans, and if Koreans said those things about the posters, they'd have a conniption.

Old fat expat

Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:50 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Anyways, I'll give 3 long examples of why I lean apologist. I think they serve to illustrate why I think the way I do.

So, by your reasoning, anyone with 3 anecdotes relating to poor treatment from Koreans is justified in leaning 'hater'? Or do they have to be long examples? Very Happy

atwood

Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:59 pm Post subject:

It sounds like SR hangs out with mostly jerks. There are, no doubt, plenty of them in Korea, a much higher percentage than you would find back in the U.S., anyway, and I would be very hesitant to use them as examples of how most Americans act or think. For example, I met a guy recently who was going on about how great the Korean health system was, a view I happen not to share. When I mentioned how the health insurance I had in the U.S., which I paid nothing for, was better than the insurance I have here, he said he never had insurance in the U.S. and didn't know anyone that did. I don't, on the other hand, know anyone who doesn't. So he, and everyone he knows, don't have enough on the ball to get a job with benefits. I wouldn't consider them typical. Anyone who's stressed out over getting the shaft in certain situations because they're a foreigner has misunderstood the rules of the game. The things that annoy me are things that Koreans do, under what I've come to think of as the weakest of all excuses--"culture"--in all situations regardless of whom the other person is. And I can give you thousands of examples of those types of behavior.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:54 pm Post subject:

cabeza wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

cabeza wrote:

[

You are a boring twit.
.

So in other words you have no argument?

Fair enough but why not just come out and say it?

And just so you know personal attacks are against the TOS of this site.

It's pointless arguing with someone like you. You are suggesting people locate surveys and studies about whether Koreans overuse analogies in regards to locations in their country.
.

I never said or suggested that. There you go again misrepresenting my position.

I asked you two questions and I asked for YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES.

Quote:

what exactly is a "lot" in that context? 1, 2, 20, 50? Seriously how many Koreans do you know personally who have told you that Jeju is the Hawaii of Korea?

Those are my questions. It was you and Mr. catflap who started babbling on about me asking for studies and statistics.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject:

atwood wrote:

[
No, your argument is still based on an assumption and conflates that assumption into an incredibly unreasonable position--that someone would have spoken to every single Korean on the peninsula.

That is what I have been trying to point out for the last three pages here ever since this remark was written.

Quote:

And Korea does seem to do that a lot more than other places I've been.

Obviously it's unreasonable to assume that someone has spoken to every single Korean on the peninsula or even the majority of them.

So then what exactly are they basing their statements (such as the above quote) on?

crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

Oh this is rich. You've done this with myself and others, ad nauseam.
Quantity over quality SR. Keep em comin.

Yes, sure....Don't do that, but it doesn't really bother me as long as you do it that way too. Get over yourself.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

what exactly is a "lot" in that context? 1, 2, 20, 50? Seriously how many Koreans do you know personally who have told you that Jeju is the Hawaii of Korea?

Look, no one wrote numbers down at the time and no one can remember now ok? It's an impression you form of people. Rightly or wrongly, that's how people's minds work. You can either say you've formed the same impression or not. Presumably you haven't.

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