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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
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No, your argument is still based on an assumption and conflates that assumption into an incredibly unreasonable position--that someone would have spoken to every single Korean on the peninsula.
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That is what I have been trying to point out for the last three pages here ever since this remark was written.
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| And Korea does seem to do that a lot more than other places I've been. |
Obviously it's unreasonable to assume that someone has spoken to every single Korean on the peninsula or even the majority of them.
So then what exactly are they basing their statements (such as the above quote) on? |
I got a chuckle from the inanity of your question. They base their opinions on the same things others do--their personal experiences and what they have learned from them.
Now one can question the breadth of that experience or the validity of their interpretation of said experience, but to, as you're doing, expect overwhelming statistical evidence is unrealistic and out of place on a forum such as this.
Questions such as yours can be raised ad inifinitum on an Internet forum. They do nothing to create an on-going dialogue that might serve to provide answers or information. They just disrupt. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| what exactly is a "lot" in that context? 1, 2, 20, 50? Seriously how many Koreans do you know personally who have told you that Jeju is the Hawaii of Korea? |
Look, no one wrote numbers down at the time and no one can remember now ok? It's an impression you form of people. Rightly or wrongly, that's how people's minds work. You can either say you've formed the same impression or not. Presumably you haven't. |
What about NETs that have said similar things? I know a couple of NETs who have said "Jeju is the Hawaii of Korea", and none of them were saying it "in that way".
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| It sounds like SR hangs out with mostly jerks. There are, no doubt, plenty of them in Korea, a much higher percentage than you would find back in the U.S., anyway, and I would be very hesitant to use them as examples of how most Americans act or think. |
No, they're not, just some of them jumped to conclusions. We all do. And even if they did say something racist, I am not the type to treat a bigoted moment as the worst crime in the land. The reason they were my friends, was that they were always honest and we could argue about things openly. Also, I have a firm rule- when it comes to when I'm out drinking, NO KOREA STANCES WHATSOEVER. I take my booze too seriously to let arguments over who bigoted who to spoil what should be a happy occasion.
Although I think you might be one to something as all of the people in those examples were American. In fact one of the hilarious moments was an American telling an Afrikaaner and a British Muslim to "watch out for the racism, you probably aren't used to it".
Of course I've had my moments of prejudging too. But the lesson I learned from those incidents and my own- was that that is not the way to approach things. Be patient and give people the benefit of the doubt. It is better to let a guilty Korean go free than to punish an innocent one.
The thing is, that for each example of both Korean and foreigner negative behavior, I can give dozens or hundreds of positive behavior. That's what prevents me from either ranting on Koreans (believe it or not I was there about 7 years ago in my life) or joining the Korean Sentry crowd.
One rants about Koreans talking up Jeju, but what about that random Kroean guy took you fishing or hiking or bought you a free meal. That same impulse that talked up Jeju was the one that got you that experience. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| what exactly is a "lot" in that context? 1, 2, 20, 50? Seriously how many Koreans do you know personally who have told you that Jeju is the Hawaii of Korea? |
Look, no one wrote numbers down at the time and no one can remember now ok? It's an impression you form of people. Rightly or wrongly, that's how people's minds work. You can either say you've formed the same impression or not. Presumably you haven't. |
What about NETs that have said similar things? I know a couple of NETs who have said "Jeju is the Hawaii of Korea", and none of them were saying it "in that way".
| Quote: |
| It sounds like SR hangs out with mostly jerks. There are, no doubt, plenty of them in Korea, a much higher percentage than you would find back in the U.S., anyway, and I would be very hesitant to use them as examples of how most Americans act or think. |
No, they're not, just some of them jumped to conclusions. We all do. And even if they did say something racist, I am not the type to treat a bigoted moment as the worst crime in the land. The reason they were my friends, was that they were always honest and we could argue about things openly. Also, I have a firm rule- when it comes to when I'm out drinking, NO KOREA STANCES WHATSOEVER. I take my booze too seriously to let arguments over who bigoted who to spoil what should be a happy occasion.
Although I think you might be one to something as all of the people in those examples were American. In fact one of the hilarious moments was an American telling an Afrikaaner and a British Muslim to "watch out for the racism, you probably aren't used to it".
Of course I've had my moments of prejudging too. But the lesson I learned from those incidents and my own- was that that is not the way to approach things. Be patient and give people the benefit of the doubt. It is better to let a guilty Korean go free than to punish an innocent one.
The thing is, that for each example of both Korean and foreigner negative behavior, I can give dozens or hundreds of positive behavior. That's what prevents me from either ranting on Koreans (believe it or not I was there about 7 years ago in my life) or joining the Korean Sentry crowd.
One rants about Koreans talking up Jeju, but what about that random Kroean guy took you fishing or hiking or bought you a free meal. That same impulse that talked up Jeju was the one that got you that experience. |
Dude, I don't know how you seem to get so much free stuff, but personally, I don't go in for all the freeloading that some foreigners in Korea do.
One good thing about that is I can be honest and not have to be an apologist. I don't have to look at every situation as what do I need to say and do here to score a free drink or meal. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| I've got gyopo friends and we've shared perspectives and although some things are similar, most are not. |
Really? How gyopoy are they? I'd say it varies greatly depending on language ability. Those that are relatively fluent would probably have significantly different experiences vs. gyopos and adopted Koreans that have minimal Korean skills. I should have made that distinction. |
That's true to a degree. If you can't speak the language and you hang with foreigners and appear comfortable with them, then you'll tend not to be included in the Korean group unit vs. the gyopos who are fluent and only hang with and dress like Koreans.
But think about it, most of the people that complain about Korea tend NOT to be gyopos, wonder why that is...
As I said there are SOME commonalities of experience and the language issue can matter in SOME situations. I can speak Korean decently but this only remedies some issues, and actually can lead to other problems sometimes. What generally happens is they see the foreign face and that's the major wrench in the machine for them.
As you should know one of the main parts of identity for Korean is their Ethnicity. So, on that front, when push comes to shove, you're almost always on the same "team". ( I'm saying that as how THEY perceive the situation - ethnicity is not a big factor in my opinion, but it is in THEIRS and this makes a big difference.) I'm sure for you that can work both ways (sometimes advantageously but sometimes not).
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| Anyways, I'll give 3 long examples of why I lean apologist. I think they serve to illustrate why I think the way I do. |
Wow.
THAT's why you write the volumes you do? Ouch.
Those examples were pretty tame. So I hope you write for a different reason.
Anyway, if it's a pissing contest, I've got 300+ that could demonstrate the complete opposite conclusions or viewpoints.
As for your examples: we've all met that foreign person who thinks all the Koreans are out to get them. They grumble about simple misunderstandings often related to miscommunication.
But still, often where there is smoke, there's fire. The funny thing here is that what first sounded like dumb, petty discrimination conspiracy theories... half the time end up being TRUE.
If you want to compare a checklist of random examples, fine ...
1. "Wow, they DID use the gyopo workers to spy on us and they told upper management a bunch of lies."
2."Wow, the friendly bar staff who'd never met me DID whisper to my date that foreigners are dangerous, and yes she DID ask me if I had AIDS on a first date."
3. "Wow, they WON'T let me into this club when I don't come with Korean friends. But then DO let me in when I enter with Koreans later."
4. "Surprise, the staff DID seat us at the worst table in the far corner to make mingling with girls more difficult, and they DID high-five the Koreans who noticed it and laughed."
5. "Wow, at the last conference, they DID seat us at the crappy table near the trash, in rank below the cleaning staff, at the request of a manager who hated foreigners."
6. "Wow, it IS the bar policy to have only foreigners pay FIRST for drinks."
7. "Yes, in fact they WERE mimicking English at the next table, and talking bad about us, including saying foreigners are dirt."
8. "Yes, he DID befriend us and buy us drinks and get us to open our mouths about our dating life, only to spill it all to the manager."
Only 292+ more to go...
(Of course if I keep including club/bar incidents, make that 1292+ more...)
Of course as they may have never happened to YOU, you may just deny the authenticity, or blame the examples on something the foreigner did just because you know a few bitter, clueless ones.
Nobody comes here disliking Korea (I hope), it's a good place to work and live, but many end up with similar impressions. Why are there so many that end up with similar issues/ideas/complaints about Korea? Did they have a meeting about it, or is there something to the complaints? Think about that and you'll see why the apologists are outnumbered by a large margin, and not just on this website. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Such a long list. Given its extensiveness, have you ever stopped to wonder whether it's less than Koreans hate foreigners, and more that they just hate you?
I joke, I joke.
But that is quite the list. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Dude, I don't know how you seem to get so much free stuff, but personally, I don't go in for all the freeloading that some foreigners in Korea do.
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Gregariousness, being friendly and outgoing. Not being overly judgmental.
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I don't have to look at every situation as what do I need to say and do here to score a free drink or meal.
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Actually, in all of those situations, free compensation was unexpected. I stopped smoking around the guy because as a smoker who has strong views on the issue, one of those is that if someone politely asks me to not smoke as a fellow man (and not trying to jam legislation down my throat), I will gladly acquiesce. In the case of the elderly couple, again it was my belief that "one just does those things for old people". Other people have a more conflict and territorial world view. Fine for them.
My view on free stuff is that it is to be appreciated, never expected. I don't expect it and I don't look for it. On the contrary, with my friends I love to buy rounds and pick up the tab after a jolly good night. You'll never see ol Steelie parsing the bill down to the last 100 won and making sure some guy (the DD?) who got a coke while everyone else got drinks for 3 hours pays up.
| Quote: |
Only 292+ more to go...
(Of course if I keep including club/bar incidents, make that 1292+ more...) |
And how many positive experiences have you had?
And again, how many of those stories might be misinterpreted, much as the people in my examples misinterpreted theirs?
| Quote: |
| Nobody comes here disliking Korea (I hope) |
One other tendency amongst complainers- The less they knew about Korea before they came, the more likely they are to hate the place.
Maybe that's the key? I came here expecting things to pretty much be how bashers say. After all, I had dealt with Koreans for quite some time and at one point in my life WAS as nasty as any basher. Maturity and wisdom lead me to realize that perhaps things weren't so one-sided. So I was prepared for payscams, racism, ostracization, dudes with issues about foreigners and girls, food, bad English, Korean style decision making, etc. etc.
| Quote: |
| Why are there so many that end up with similar issues/ideas/complaints about Korea? Did they have a meeting about it, or is there something to the complaints? Think about that and you'll see why the apologists are outnumbered by a large margin, and not just on this website. |
Then why are there so many Bleepyourkimchi Simon and Martina Keeaboo types? Whom frankly I loathe more than the bashers (they tend to like coffee shops and hip bars, not record bars or dingy ajosshi hofs filled with smoke). I tend to run into a LARGE number of under 30 bubbly happy types who are always hiking and going to KFest this and that.
I do think some people tend to push their own inadequacies on things. Take the "farmers in suits" comment that often appears. Do you really think that guy who is a Samsung engineer working on the new SIV, is a farmer in a suit? OR is it more likely the poster is attempting to rip that guy in an effort to make himself feel better, rather than face his own inadequacies. People make a big deal about Korean sexual inferiority complexes and how they come out. Is there perhaps an NET status inferiority complex that comes out in much the same fashion?
Besides, if the bashers are such great people, then why, invariably, there is always at least one extremely offensive post on every thread like this? Something that contains vile, hate-filled language. That's ajosshi batting average right there.
Enough incoherant rambling. Time to get sauced. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Dude, I don't know how you seem to get so much free stuff, but personally, I don't go in for all the freeloading that some foreigners in Korea do.
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Gregariousness, being friendly and outgoing. Not being overly judgmental.
| Quote: |
I don't have to look at every situation as what do I need to say and do here to score a free drink or meal.
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Actually, in all of those situations, free compensation was unexpected. I stopped smoking around the guy because as a smoker who has strong views on the issue, one of those is that if someone politely asks me to not smoke as a fellow man (and not trying to jam legislation down my throat), I will gladly acquiesce. In the case of the elderly couple, again it was my belief that "one just does those things for old people". Other people have a more conflict and territorial world view. Fine for them.
My view on free stuff is that it is to be appreciated, never expected. I don't expect it and I don't look for it. On the contrary, with my friends I love to buy rounds and pick up the tab after a jolly good night. You'll never see ol Steelie parsing the bill down to the last 100 won and making sure some guy (the DD?) who got a coke while everyone else got drinks for 3 hours pays up.
| Quote: |
Only 292+ more to go...
(Of course if I keep including club/bar incidents, make that 1292+ more...) |
And how many positive experiences have you had?
And again, how many of those stories might be misinterpreted, much as the people in my examples misinterpreted theirs?
| Quote: |
| Nobody comes here disliking Korea (I hope) |
One other tendency amongst complainers- The less they knew about Korea before they came, the more likely they are to hate the place.
Maybe that's the key? I came here expecting things to pretty much be how bashers say. After all, I had dealt with Koreans for quite some time and at one point in my life WAS as nasty as any basher. Maturity and wisdom lead me to realize that perhaps things weren't so one-sided. So I was prepared for payscams, racism, ostracization, dudes with issues about foreigners and girls, food, bad English, Korean style decision making, etc. etc.
| Quote: |
| Why are there so many that end up with similar issues/ideas/complaints about Korea? Did they have a meeting about it, or is there something to the complaints? Think about that and you'll see why the apologists are outnumbered by a large margin, and not just on this website. |
Then why are there so many Bleepyourkimchi Simon and Martina Keeaboo types? Whom frankly I loathe more than the bashers (they tend to like coffee shops and hip bars, not record bars or dingy ajosshi hofs filled with smoke). I tend to run into a LARGE number of under 30 bubbly happy types who are always hiking and going to KFest this and that.
I do think some people tend to push their own inadequacies on things. Take the "farmers in suits" comment that often appears. Do you really think that guy who is a Samsung engineer working on the new SIV, is a farmer in a suit? OR is it more likely the poster is attempting to rip that guy in an effort to make himself feel better, rather than face his own inadequacies. People make a big deal about Korean sexual inferiority complexes and how they come out. Is there perhaps an NET status inferiority complex that comes out in much the same fashion?
Besides, if the bashers are such great people, then why, invariably, there is always at least one extremely offensive post on every thread like this? Something that contains vile, hate-filled language. That's ajosshi batting average right there.
Enough incoherant rambling. Time to get sauced. |
In other words, you're working it.
Someone can have a good job and still be a poor-mannered slob. You would be better off learning to argue in such a slipshod manner.
"Extremely offensive" is in the eye of the beholder, but it seems you realize you're fighting a losing battle--that the truth will out--and have now resorted to calling posters you disagree with racists. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
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Now one can question the breadth of that experience or the validity of their interpretation of said experience, but to, as you're doing, expect overwhelming statistical evidence is unrealistic and out of place on a forum such as this.
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Except I never asked for "overwhelming statistical evidence" of any kind. I asked for personal anecdotes.
And as an aside I have to add that I'm getting pretty tired of refuting fabricated allegations. Either show us in this thread where I asked for "overwhelming statistical evidence" or quit posting such claims. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Personal Anecdote: The office manager at my place of work said on my first day something along the lines "Jeju island is a natural wonder of the world. Like hawaii. More beautiful then the Philipines".
This was in response to my telling him that I had just been to the Philippines.
My students did presentations on various places around korea. The title of the Jeju group's presntaion "The Hawaii of Korea".
Do you really think people are making this stuff up becuase they hate Korea so much?
As someone said above, normal people don't go around taking notes on these kinds of things, counting them. It's a general feeling that comes about through hearing something enough times so that it is presnt as a fact in your conscious mind. Only a knob end would go around actively counting everytime something is said. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| cabeza wrote: |
Personal Anecdote: The office manager at my place of work said on my first day something along the lines "Jeju island is a natural wonder of the world. Like hawaii. More beautiful then the Philipines".
This was in response to my telling him that I had just been to the Philippines.
My students did presentations on various places around korea. The title of the Jeju group's presntaion "The Hawaii of Korea".
Do you really think people are making this stuff up becuase they hate Korea so much?
As someone said above, normal people don't go around taking notes on these kinds of things, counting them. It's a general feeling that comes about through hearing something enough times so that it is presnt as a fact in your conscious mind. Only a knob end would go around actively counting everytime something is said. |
No I don't...like I said above I just want to see where they are getting their impressions from.
I'm fairly sure there are a number of Koreans who refer to Jeju as "The Hawaii of Korea". Just like I'm fairly sure there are a number of Koreans who don't.
Which group is larger? I don't know...I don't go around counting. But I'm not going to tar both with the same brush is all.
BTW thanks for answering the question. Appreciate it. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| BTW thanks for answering the question. Appreciate it. |
Didn't he just call you a knob-end?  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
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Now one can question the breadth of that experience or the validity of their interpretation of said experience, but to, as you're doing, expect overwhelming statistical evidence is unrealistic and out of place on a forum such as this.
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Except I never asked for "overwhelming statistical evidence" of any kind. I asked for personal anecdotes.
And as an aside I have to add that I'm getting pretty tired of refuting fabricated allegations. Either show us in this thread where I asked for "overwhelming statistical evidence" or quit posting such claims. |
You asked if the person had spoken to everyone in Korea. You also asked for a percentage breakdown.
Now of you want to interpret that as personal anecdote, be my guest. But there's nothing fabricated in my post. (Allegations--have you been infected with SR's penchant for exaggeration?)
Besides which, this forum is chock full of personal anecdotes.
Stay huffy--it suits you. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
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Now one can question the breadth of that experience or the validity of their interpretation of said experience, but to, as you're doing, expect overwhelming statistical evidence is unrealistic and out of place on a forum such as this.
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Except I never asked for "overwhelming statistical evidence" of any kind. I asked for personal anecdotes.
And as an aside I have to add that I'm getting pretty tired of refuting fabricated allegations. Either show us in this thread where I asked for "overwhelming statistical evidence" or quit posting such claims. |
You asked if the person had spoken to everyone in Korea.
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Again I never said any such thing. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Again I never said any such thing. |
How about letting us know what figures you think are acceptable for someone to have experience of before they should mention it on this board. How many times, for example, should someone hear the words 'K pop is popular all over the world' before it's acceptable to say 'Koreans say this a lot.'? Is ten people enough? Or should it be a percentage? So if someone speaks to only ten people in total, three out of them would be enough. Please tell us so we can refrain from bothering you about it on here until we have acceptable numbers to back our points up. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Enough incoherant rambling. Time to get sauced. |
On THIS we agree. Probably ONLY this, but oh well.
Peace.  |
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