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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ryunatkorea wrote: |
Wow... It's been 8 years since I've been on this forum... or even an "English" teacher.
JediJenna,
I'll tell you my two cents as a Korean American once worked as a civil engineer while moonlighting as a "native" speaking "teacher."
Generally (a big emphasis on general), Koreans are moderately weak at common English pronunciation. It is a cold hard fact.
My extremely well educated Korean colleagues that have spent their greater part of their life studying overseas since high school, still suck at pronunciation. Not because of their lack of effort or some genetic physical disorder of the mouth, they simply don't pronounce things right.
You assume that there may be some ignorant reaction here; perhaps so. I think you are very wrong to assume that they were speaking English words to begin with.
"Tem-ah" and "Bet-nam" aren't directly from English. Those words are actually Japanese-English. IMO Japanese have even less diphthongs and worse pronunciation than the Koreans. Believe it or not, many Japanese or Japanese educated Koreans were hired to establish social and cultural knowledge infrastructures after WWII. In a Japanese internment camp, my grandfather was taught to read at a Mitsubishi Factory making fighter planes. He later worked at a local government office in Korea. The point is, much of the geo-political and globally-cultural words were passed down without the label of "English." To my grandfather and my father, "Bet-nam" is just another word to describe "Weolnam" or Vietnam; probably didn't care to know where the name comes from. "tem-a" is probably from other European language(Spanish?) brought in to Japan, similar to "pan"/"bbang"/bread.
Another issue is that, there are too much stigma of using the correct pronunciation. Even in America, my more-Koreanized Korean American friends would tell me to speak English like a Korean person, because they can't understand me. My brother-in-law, loves the English language, gets a lot of flak from his wife when ever he pronounces my name "Ryan" not "Lion." It is very common for Koreans to make fun of other Koreans for "rolling the words" aka speaking properly, especially at McDonalds. Even Korean mass media is to blame for this for their very lack in effort to correct or educate the Korean public. Pretty much, their habitual lack of effort or resistance to pronounce things correctly, solidified poor English to a correct Korean. For perpetrating their own general ignorance, they can deserve to be under common scrutiny and criticism. For decades I have been slapping my own parents hands with English corrections.
I believe that there are somethings you have to do as respect to other cultures. don't put mayo and corn on bread to call it a pizza. No ketchup on the lettuce and call it kimchi. Know what you are saying and criticizing while make an effort to pronounce things correctly. Having said that, English is a bastard Romance language and it really doesn't matter how you pronounce it, as long as we get our points across without disrespecting each other.
As an American, I feel like we are the biggest culprit of butchering other languages. |
English is a Germanic language, although I'd agree with the bastard appellation.
While Americans may "butcher" other languages, they're not doing it purposefully, as you claim Koreans are doing to English.
Koreans misuse of English, (And why blame the Japanese? Are they still in control of Korea?) would be much easier to take if they would extend the same courtesy to foreigners speaking imperfect Korean that foreigners extend to them when they "butcher" the English language. |
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ampersandman
Joined: 01 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Koreans misuse of English, (And why blame the Japanese? Are they still in control of Korea?) would be much easier to take if they would extend the same courtesy to foreigners speaking imperfect Korean that foreigners extend to them when they "butcher" the English language. |
I've thought about this a lot and I've decided that it just doesn't occur to them. As an English speaker you have been hearing people speaking English with foreign accents and at various levels of inability for most of your life. Native Korean speakers don't have any comparable perspective to draw on. They've only heard native Korean throughout their lives. Imagine hearing only native English for your entire life and then one day someone walks up and talks to you in English sounding like Inspector Clousseau. It's bound to be strange and funny, in fact it's alarming to imagine how ludicrous it must sound to them. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| While Americans may "butcher" other languages, they're not doing it purposefully, as you claim Koreans are doing to English. |
Are you kidding me? Americans delight in butchering other languages. Politicians often do as a subtle tip towards more nationalistic elements. Ever notice how George W. Bush was fairly good at pronouncing the name of non-Americans he liked, but would do some ridiculous mispronunciation of those that were on "the list".
Sorry, but there is a whole strain of folks back home that love to deliberately mispronounce stuff less they come off as some sort of sissified nerd.
| Quote: |
| would be much easier to take if they would extend the same courtesy to foreigners speaking imperfect Korean that foreigners extend to them when they "butcher" the English language. |
What courtesy? You mean the videos on youtube mocking how someone pronounces Coke? Babo T-Shirts? Accented voices and 'Englishee'?
I'd say both sides are pretty guilty of mocking each other. |
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ryunatkorea
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Location: Sincheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| JediJenna wrote: |
| you may be right about "tema," but i am pretty sure that "betnam" is NOT a japanese-english hand-me-down of the word "vietnam." otherwise it would be "betonam" or "bietonam." |
Ironic, how you are pronouncing Japanese like an American Otaku; over emphasis on the wrong syllable when pronouncing words written in Katakana. Japanese "Be-to-namu" is very similar to Korean's "Be-teu-nam." This something beyond a season worth of Anime or a year of 101 class in college. It is so pointless to correct someone's pronunciation with Romanization standards.
Word entomology is very important when judging/teaching others on what is the "correct" pronunciation. As a claimed teacher, how do you stay ignorant on other factors that influence a language.
I've always taught my students and "betnam" is Konglish and the "Vietnam" is the correct English word.
You get on this forum known for expats griping about frustrations of Korea, to judge us on what we think is amusing. You should taking things for what it is worth. It is what it is. You'd find accents and unusual English from Jamaicans in Toronto to Jews in NY to Latinos in Miami and to French in France. They all sound funny and still English to me. No need to be so sensitive about it.
Go see a Russel Peters show and relax a bit. |
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ryunatkorea
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Location: Sincheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| ampersandman wrote: |
| Samsung. Everyone knows it's pronounced as "SAM" (the boy's nickname) "sung" (past tense of sing). Koreans' mispronounce it badly. |
Some say no one really know the actual pronunciation of "Hyundai." Many Americans still think that it is a "Honda" with a different spelling. I've had a Korean explain how to correctly pronounce "Hyundai" to non-Koreans. Non-Koreans outright refused to believe him and dismissed him. |
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ryunatkorea
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Location: Sincheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
English is a Germanic language, although I'd agree with the bastard appellation.
While Americans may "butcher" other languages, they're not doing it purposefully, as you claim Koreans are doing to English.
Koreans misuse of English, (And why blame the Japanese? Are they still in control of Korea?) would be much easier to take if they would extend the same courtesy to foreigners speaking imperfect Korean that foreigners extend to them when they "butcher" the English language. |
I've never said it was on purpose by the Koreans. I don't blame the Japanese. You need to read what I said correctly. Korean modern language is evolved to adapt many other languages. My emphasis was the etymology of words. Why judge people for incorrect pronunciation when the word they used wasn't English to begin with. The focus should better spent on teaching the correct word. |
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ryunatkorea
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Location: Sincheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I'd say both sides are pretty guilty of mocking each other. |
BUMP!!! |
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JediJenna
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Location: Pyeongtaek, S.Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:48 am Post subject: |
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[quote="ryunatkorea"][quote="JediJenna"]you may be right about "tema," but i am pretty sure that "betnam" is NOT a japanese-english hand-me-down of the word "vietnam." otherwise it would be "betonam" or "bietonam."[/quote]
Ironic, how you are pronouncing Japanese like an American Otaku; over emphasis on the wrong syllable when pronouncing words written in Katakana. Japanese "Be-to-namu" is very similar to Korean's "Be-teu-nam." This something beyond a season worth of Anime or a year of 101 class in college. It is so pointless to correct someone's pronunciation with Romanization standards.
Word entomology is very important when judging/teaching others on what is the "correct" pronunciation. As a claimed teacher, how do you stay ignorant on other factors that influence a language.
I've always taught my students and "betnam" is Konglish and the "Vietnam" is the correct English word.
You get on this forum known for expats griping about frustrations of Korea, to judge us on what we think is amusing. You should taking things for what it is worth. It is what it is. You'd find accents and unusual English from Jamaicans in Toronto to Jews in NY to Latinos in Miami and to French in France. They all sound funny and still English to me. No need to be so sensitive about it.
Go see a Russel Peters show and relax a bit.[/quote]
oh, i didn't know this was a forum where you come to vent frustrations and griping. didn't see that on the subject line or anything but thanks for the heads up. instead of coming here for pointers or advice and such, i'll just log in to bitch about a country i chose to come to.
also, you should take your own advice about reading things more clearly and realize that, regarding "vietnam" and "bietonam," i was addressing dave's previous posit that koreans were taught how to say "betnam" from a japanese pronunciation, which i disagreed with. also, i am japanese and fluent and not an american otaku, thanks. but clearly you've learned all of your japanese from watching too much tentacle porn. i appreciate your trying to school me in my own language though. it didn't come off as patronizing or judgmental at all. i am sure your students LOVE that about you.
i agree that both sides mock but, most of us who come from western countries that have a dirge of immigrants and second to xx generation living together speaking various languages should be a bit more understanding that not everyone is going to speak like us or pronounce words like us. otherwise we wouldn't need to be here. |
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ryunatkorea
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Location: Sincheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| JediJenna wrote: |
| ryunatkorea wrote: |
| JediJenna wrote: |
| you may be right about "tema," but i am pretty sure that "betnam" is NOT a japanese-english hand-me-down of the word "vietnam." otherwise it would be "betonam" or "bietonam." |
Ironic, how you are pronouncing Japanese like an American Otaku; over emphasis on the wrong syllable when pronouncing words written in Katakana. Japanese "Be-to-namu" is very similar to Korean's "Be-teu-nam." This something beyond a season worth of Anime or a year of 101 class in college. It is so pointless to correct someone's pronunciation with Romanization standards.
Word entomology is very important when judging/teaching others on what is the "correct" pronunciation. As a claimed teacher, how do you stay ignorant on other factors that influence a language.
I've always taught my students and "betnam" is Konglish and the "Vietnam" is the correct English word.
You get on this forum known for expats griping about frustrations of Korea, to judge us on what we think is amusing. You should taking things for what it is worth. It is what it is. You'd find accents and unusual English from Jamaicans in Toronto to Jews in NY to Latinos in Miami and to French in France. They all sound funny and still English to me. No need to be so sensitive about it.
Go see a Russel Peters show and relax a bit. |
oh, i didn't know this was a forum where you come to vent frustrations and griping. didn't see that on the subject line or anything but thanks for the heads up. instead of coming here for pointers or advice and such, i'll just log in to bitch about a country i chose to come to.
also, you should take your own advice about reading things more clearly and realize that, regarding "vietnam" and "bietonam," i was addressing dave's previous posit that koreans were taught how to say "betnam" from a japanese pronunciation, which i disagreed with. also, i am japanese and fluent and not an american otaku, thanks. but clearly you've learned all of your japanese from watching too much tentacle porn. i appreciate your trying to school me in my own language though. it didn't come off as patronizing or judgmental at all. i am sure your students LOVE that about you.
i agree that both sides mock but, most of us who come from western countries that have a dirge of immigrants and second to xx generation living together speaking various languages should be a bit more understanding that not everyone is going to speak like us or pronounce words like us. otherwise we wouldn't need to be here. |
Well obviously you didn't bother exploring the rest of this forum. It is obvious that you aren't all that fluent in Japanese. You claim that I would know tentacle porn. It is clear that you know a lot more about Anime to judge me about it. If you didn't find what you were looking for in this thread why come and judge the poster here for their opinions. I'm just more open minded when it comes to how other perceive other cultures. I can laugh at a good Korean jokes vice versa. Not everyone is all that sensitive as you are. You've rehashed 4 year old post to talk about how ignorant people are here. Who are you to be so judgmental? You're a hypocrite. If the internet is too mean for you GTFO! As a Korean with an accent, I found nothing that deeply insulting about people here other than you. My own mother speaks poor English. Don't patronize Korean people for not speaking YOUR English. If you truly wanted this to be a discussion of advancing what is left of Korean education system after poorly privatized, then say something of value rather than judging people. Be a teacher "as you were there to do." |
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JediJenna
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Location: Pyeongtaek, S.Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:16 am Post subject: |
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[quote] Well obviously you didn't bother exploring the rest of this forum. It is obvious that you aren't all that fluent in Japanese. You claim that I would know tentacle porn. It is clear that you know a lot more about Anime to judge me about it. If you didn't find what you were looking for in this thread why come and judge the poster here for their opinions. I'm just more open minded when it comes to how other perceive other cultures. I can laugh at a good Korean jokes vice versa. Not everyone is all that sensitive as you are. You've rehashed 4 year old post to talk about how ignorant people are here. Who are you to be so judgmental? You're a hypocrite. If the internet is too mean for you GTFO! As a Korean with an accent, I found nothing that deeply insulting about people here other than you. My own mother speaks poor English. Don't patronize Korean people for not speaking YOUR English. If you truly wanted this to be a discussion of advancing what is left of Korean education system after poorly privatized, then say something of value rather than judging people. Be a teacher "as you were there to do."[/quote]
why explore? i did a search for what i was looking for and found this forum (which was exactly what i was looking for), only to read about how the teachers here find korean pronunciation of english so ridiculous. and now i have to question if you even know how to read because apparently you've completely misunderstood the point. i didn't call anyone ignorant, i asked for better understanding and patience for those who cannot pronounce english well as we wish. i never patronized koreans for not speaking MY english, wtf are you even talking about, you carny retard? my mother is korean and my father is japanese and neither can speak more than 20 words of english, which is why it bothered me that people are being mocked and made fun of while they try to learn. so i think YOU need to relax. i didn't look at the last post date of this thread. 4 years old? wow...i guess this place is hoppin'. i merely read through it all (instead of just one or two posts, as apparently you did), and then submitted my OWN OPINION, which you are so cavalier in defending.
i didn't come here to "advance what is left of the korean education system..." because my post wasn't political. it was sociological. if you think the system is broken, cool; i hope you have already begun to fight the good fight, whatever that is. me? i am just here to teach english in whatever system, broken or not.
y u mad, bro? drink a beer and chill out. |
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ryunatkorea
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Location: Sincheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| JediJenna wrote: |
so, I came to this forum to see what words I could pull together to help my adult class with commonly mispronounced english words and, for the most part, i found this thread to be very helpful. however, there are some posts that are just downright ignorant and assumptive about korean speakers. there is such a display of indignant reaction to, GASP, non-native speakers not correctly pronouncing a strange language, even after trying to undo years of utter wrongness!!! Woe is us...
i don't mean to pick on this one particular post in my reply here but it was the one i had read that had the most "oh my god, why don't they say these words the right way?!" type of attitude, which seems to be prevalent. granted, i came to this thread to find words that koreans have a hard time with, but i was rather dismayed at the snobbery that many posts displayed. i doubt we would fare much better or worse learning a language that was so different from ours. very sorry if i come across as a bit angry and mortified. i don't want to come off like a douchebag but i know our students (both young and old) would feel incredibly awful if they knew some of the things that were being written here.
also, to that dude (or dudette, don't want to assume) that didn't know the difference between a vowel, consonant, and article.... i hope you are just teaching phonics here and nothing more. please do your students a favor and review a basic grammar book. please.. |
R U drunk BRO when you wrote this?
You were all gung-ho about what is right or wrong before.
So why are you so passive about it now?
Why avoid a fight for your good cause?
Suddenly, you just want to teach a little and not care about education of your students as a whole.
If you were that nonchalant and didn't care about it much, why go around stirring up?
You're lame dude.
You're no different than the foreigner bunch that comes and goes without a care. |
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JediJenna
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Location: Pyeongtaek, S.Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: |
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[quote] R U drunk BRO when you wrote this?
You were all gung-ho about what is right or wrong before.
So why are you so passive about it now?
Why avoid a fight for your good cause?
Suddenly, you just want to teach a little and not care about education of your students as a whole.
If you were that nonchalant and didn't care about it much, why go around stirring up?
You're lame dude.
You're no different than the foreigner bunch that comes and goes without a care.[/quote]
yeah, i am STILL gung-ho about it, rather my actual point and not what you so mistakenly have decided was my point in that twisted little brain of yours. i STILL don't think it's right to mock people for not having the correct pronunciation, especially when they're first learning. that was my point, in case you didn't/couldn't read. what "fight" are you saying i'm trying to avoid? you're so off the handle right now i don't think you even realize it. you're the one who brought up politics, not me. i wasn't even talking about the education system; just our mentality about others who are learning english and perhaps that our approach about it should be with more sensitivity.
way to completely read things the wrong way. i am sorry if you learned to read from an apparently horrible teacher. perhaps if you're the result of such a system, we DO need to talk about an overhaul because apparently it's not working.
have a great day and keep posting like an ignoramus. i am logging out of your crazy world of nonsensical words. ta-tah!! |
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ryunatkorea
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
Location: Sincheon, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| JediJenna wrote: |
| Quote: |
R U drunk BRO when you wrote this?
You were all gung-ho about what is right or wrong before.
So why are you so passive about it now?
Why avoid a fight for your good cause?
Suddenly, you just want to teach a little and not care about education of your students as a whole.
If you were that nonchalant and didn't care about it much, why go around stirring up?
You're lame dude.
You're no different than the foreigner bunch that comes and goes without a care. |
yeah, i am STILL gung-ho about it, rather my actual point and not what you so mistakenly have decided was my point in that twisted little brain of yours. i STILL don't think it's right to mock people for not having the correct pronunciation, especially when they're first learning. that was my point, in case you didn't/couldn't read. what "fight" are you saying i'm trying to avoid? you're so off the handle right now i don't think you even realize it. you're the one who brought up politics, not me. i wasn't even talking about the education system; just our mentality about others who are learning english and perhaps that our approach about it should be with more sensitivity.
way to completely read things the wrong way. i am sorry if you learned to read from an apparently horrible teacher. perhaps if you're the result of such a system, we DO need to talk about an overhaul because apparently it's not working.
have a great day and keep posting like an ignoramus. i am logging out of your crazy world of nonsensical words. ta-tah!! |
You're just another loser from overseas milking the system in Korea. You're dirtying my homeland. GTFO LOSER. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Geez...this argument should make one long for the days of a good ol apologist vs. basher argument. At least we can make arguments with semi-decent punctuation and capitalization. We may be blowhards, but we don't sound like 16 year olds screaming into a cell phone. And we can properly use a quote function.
How I long for the dulcet tones of an oldfatexpat or Mr. Blackcat. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ryunatkorea wrote: |
| JediJenna wrote: |
| Quote: |
R U drunk BRO when you wrote this?
You were all gung-ho about what is right or wrong before.
So why are you so passive about it now?
Why avoid a fight for your good cause?
Suddenly, you just want to teach a little and not care about education of your students as a whole.
If you were that nonchalant and didn't care about it much, why go around stirring up?
You're lame dude.
You're no different than the foreigner bunch that comes and goes without a care. |
yeah, i am STILL gung-ho about it, rather my actual point and not what you so mistakenly have decided was my point in that twisted little brain of yours. i STILL don't think it's right to mock people for not having the correct pronunciation, especially when they're first learning. that was my point, in case you didn't/couldn't read. what "fight" are you saying i'm trying to avoid? you're so off the handle right now i don't think you even realize it. you're the one who brought up politics, not me. i wasn't even talking about the education system; just our mentality about others who are learning english and perhaps that our approach about it should be with more sensitivity.
way to completely read things the wrong way. i am sorry if you learned to read from an apparently horrible teacher. perhaps if you're the result of such a system, we DO need to talk about an overhaul because apparently it's not working.
have a great day and keep posting like an ignoramus. i am logging out of your crazy world of nonsensical words. ta-tah!! |
You're just another loser from overseas milking the system in Korea. You're dirtying my homeland. GTFO LOSER. |
Wow, this thread went south fast.
what's with all the personal insults? |
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