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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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No Fox but the comparioson to Norway was a false one. I was just pointing out that there is no way to compare the U.s. to Norway or Texas to norway, different problems different populations.
it has little to do with nationalistic pride. In fact it is embarassing to have somuch poverty in such a rich nation. It is very embarassing that the population that is the victim of certain policies is the ones who most whole heartedly support them.
But that has nothing to do with the argument about welfare. the fact is outdated ideas about welfare are the problem.
Closing down housing projects and giving vouchers works, pooling of hopelessness and despir just multiplies the hopelessness and despair.
I do not look at the uneducated jingoistic as the problem but at elites who want to buy their way out of the problem without any fundamental changes.
I also do not like people being owned by the state. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I saw that article the other day and am glad that the author has taken to writing about the topic of welfare and the poor, as I think most people do not really understand what the poor go through. I know Cracked articles are usually not highly respected, but I dig that and the author's previous article, and fully agree with the premise in both of them.
This is a sensitive topic for me since I have more than a brief experience with what it's like to be poor, as pretty much my entire time as a teenager was spent with my mother and me living below the poverty line. Yes, there are people out there who are fine with government hand-outs, but it depresses me that people with no experience of being poor think that it is the prevailing attitude. All it takes is a few bad decisions for a person who was doing well to find himself or herself in dire straits with money, and it isn't easy to escape once you get entrenched there. The system perpetuates itself, and doesn't really reward making a real effort to escape unless it is a substantial leap - such as getting a university degree, for instance. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Nolos wrote: |
| Absolutely they should work for their FREE money. Let them clean the sewers, wash windows, cut lawns, clear trash along the freeways -- ANYTHING -- than being able to just sit around and "act" like they are "looking" for work. |
How about a government run public works program to create jobs? The end result of putting idle hands to work would be the same, but there might be more dignity in it. |
Those programs exist/existed according to a documentary I saw a couple of years ago. The government forces/forced people to do a two-hour commute to go to minimum wage jobs that provide no benefits, all while offering subsidies to the employers. It's essentially no cheaper for the government ,nor better for the employee, than welfare. |
I agree those programs are bad. My impression is they're just ways to punish the unemployed, rather than solve the problem. I was thinking more along the lines of Roosevelt's programs in the 30s - but broader in scope with a lot more besides unskilled labour jobs. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Why do I get the idea that most of the posters here are not americans and just spewing B.S. |
I'm not American and it's a fair question why I don't concentrate on discussing problems that affect my own country - in many cases the same ones that affect the U.S.. But I'm not coming at this from the perspective of attacking the U.S.. In this globalized world, understanding the way the U.S. works goes a long way toward understanding how the world works, and that's what interests me. Also, I'm overseas and a lot of the internet discussion focuses on the American situation so, if I want to participate, I have to focus on that too. Lastly, I think the cutting edge of the ideological debate is in the U.S. - social democracy, which most of us in Europe think is a good thing, is constantly under attack from the neoliberal and libertarian think tanks based in the U.S.. I think this debate is important. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| 2. Do you have a link to that study? This talk by Marion Nestle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRLA7THDlDw (long, but very informative) says that you get more calories per dollar if you buy processed or junk food. |
sure this is true but the food itself is not healthy at all. and calories are not everything. in fact the people who are eating this awful processed or junk food are most likely not conscious of the calories. hell, i doubt they even know what a calorie actually is.
the previously linked study about calories is a bit misguided. poor people do NOT think about calories when they are buying food. if they did they'd realize that they are taking in way more than is necessary with the awful food choices they make. the article is spot on about the evils of subsidized grains and corn though.
| Privateer wrote: |
3. People also have less time for cooking because working hours are way up and both parents in a family are normally at work. Plus we're constantly bombarded with ads for unhealthy foods (even in ESL textbooks the message is propagated that 'pizza' = 'fun'). No matter how smart and educated we think we are, there's a reason companies spend huge sums on advertising and that's because it works.
Edit: turns out the Marion Nestle video doesn't have the bit I was thinking of. It may be in Food Inc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eKYyD14d_0) or in some Michael Pollan video... |
this is nothing but a very poor excuse. it takes me less time to make a quick delicious salad at home than it does for me to walk and get fast food. this is not even taking into consideration if i was in the states i'd have to hop in my car and go drive to where i wanted to go.
most americans are simply lazy, ignorant, and apathetic of the truth. as much as i disagree with fox's thinking in many cases, he's spot on here with how americans are so wrapped up in their own patriotic ideals that it clouds their judgement. |
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Deja
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Why do I get the idea that most of the posters here are not americans |
Why do I get the feeling that most here do not know the difference between Norway and Scandinavia 
I mentioned Scandinavia, I never took Norway only. Sweden, Finland, Denmark all have similar wellfare to each other (and Norway).
Holland and Germany have wellfare as well.
Wellfare itself is not a bad thing - but I do agree that how it is implemented in the US is prolly BS. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Deja wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
| Why do I get the idea that most of the posters here are not americans |
Why do I get the feeling that most here do not know the difference between Norway and Scandinavia
I mentioned Scandinavia, I never took Norway only. Sweden, Finland, Denmark all have similar wellfare to each other (and Norway).
Holland and Germany have wellfare as well.
Wellfare itself is not a bad thing - but I do agree that how it is implemented in the US is prolly BS. |
Norway is the richest out of all of them so it's the best example to combat welfare=poverty myths. Also as someone just three generations removed from Norway it's my go to Scandinavian country. To the person talking about salads and the like, you are over looking the fact that fresh foods go bad, when you're poor you don't want something that you will have to throw out a few days later. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
I agree those programs are bad. My impression is they're just ways to punish the unemployed, rather than solve the problem. I was thinking more along the lines of Roosevelt's programs in the 30s - but broader in scope with a lot more besides unskilled labour jobs. |
Roosevelt's programs mostly provided relief to skilled workers. My understanding is they didn't necessarily provide much relief to unskilled laborers. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
most americans are simply lazy, ignorant, and apathetic of the truth. as much as i disagree with fox's thinking in many cases, he's spot on here with how americans are so wrapped up in their own patriotic ideals that it clouds their judgement. |
So only Americans eat fast food and only Americans are lazy, ignorant and apathetic of the truth? What about people in other countries that eat fast food. The British also eat a lot of fast food. Also what is the truth? I find your comment there kind of amusing. I'm American and I am sophisticated enough not to include something like that in my reasoning and arguments. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Your response sounds straight out of infowars.com.
The U.S. is a good place. Most people are successful and happy there.
And most people are making good money.
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/
(I know, I know, the bottom 20% earns a lot less than the top 20%.
...But the bottom 20% is comprised largely of people like in those videos...and the top 20% is smart and industrious and hard working. Of course they deserve more money. They are actually working and producing and contributing to society. BTW, with the United States' big underground economy, it's hard to even know what the bottom 20% is making anyway. There is so much unclaimed off the books income.)
Lastly, college is a good investment. Economists say it is the single best investment a person can make in his lifetime. College grads average almost double the earnings of a high school grad during the course of their career and have roughly half the unemployment rate. |
Enjoy WT...yeah most people are doing well and no wealth distribution issues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Irrelevant gasbag, look at the link I posted:
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| In general, Americans are more satisfied with their lives than the OECD average, with 83% of people saying they have more positive experiences in an average day (feelings of rest, pride in accomplishment, enjoyment, etc) than negative ones (pain, worry, sadness, boredom, etc). This figure is higher than the OECD average |
America has so much wealth that it could be unevenly distrubuted and yet people at the bottom would still be doing well. The people at the bootom have no wealth or assests on paper because everything is given to them by the government. They get free everything including free housing owned by the government. Compared to poor people around the world, they are doing very well. America's a good country. Your Canada is better than the United States crap gets old after a while. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Yeah Harvard Professor did that..pffffftttt what does he know compared to you WT?
When did I ever say Canada was better? lol!!!
Christ this is pure comedy.  |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Irrelevant gasbag, look at the link I posted:
| Quote: |
| In general, Americans are more satisfied with their lives than the OECD average, with 83% of people saying they have more positive experiences in an average day (feelings of rest, pride in accomplishment, enjoyment, etc) than negative ones (pain, worry, sadness, boredom, etc). This figure is higher than the OECD average |
America has so much wealth that it could be unevenly distrubuted and yet people at the bottom would still be doing well. The people at the bootom have no wealth or assests on paper because everything is given to them by the government. They get free everything including free housing owned by the government. Compared to poor people around the world, they are doing very well. America's a good country. Your Canada is better than the United States crap gets old after a while. |
America has an incredible amount of wealth, it is - not 'could be' - very unevenly distributed, and people at the bottom are not doing well according to a lot of measures. Sure, they are doing better than poor people in Bangladesh - as they should be, given how much wealth there is - but is that really the standard you want to use for comparison? Compare them to poor people in other developed countries. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Americans blame 'government welfare' for persistent pove |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| The U.S. government spent $80 billion on the food stamp program last year. One in seven Americans now get free food. It's ridiculous. Poor people in the U.S. are generally overweight and obese. They need less food, not more. |
Yes. Poverty is on the rise. I know you discount infowars (why?) but here are some more stats: http://www.infowars.com/21-statistics-about-the-explosive-growth-of-poverty-in-america-that-everyone-should-know/
One stat is 47.79 million Americans are on food stamps. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Tht OP isn't happy with welfare, but when people do go out and get a job in a viable industry like prostitution, apparently that doesn't make him happy either. |
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