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Times30
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
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 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I think your first and best option is to try to be reasonable with your manager. Despite him being unreasonable. Explain the reasons of why you scolded the student and show that you had good intentions. At the very least you will understand what he's trying to do.
He may be trying naturally just to gyp you out of money or it could be an honest misunderstanding. I would assume the latter because believing the former does no good to you and will only make the situation more toxic.
I've lost students like most teachers do, it's inevitable. Just explain that you were doing your job as a teacher. If your manager STILL wants to fine you, then by all means take legal action. At least you did everything you could to remedy and explain the situation. Not to mention it looks better to the school board. |
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salutbonjour
Joined: 22 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Fined because a student quit? |
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| kavanluc wrote: |
My boss just informed me that a student quit because of me, and that I would be fined 800,000W for this. He made me sign a note that said if I was unhappy with this, I would be fired immediately.
I've never heard of this before and I am skeptical this is legal. Thoughts?
To tell what happened, I scolded a student in a way that I have scolded many students before. Nothing over the top, not even yelling or anything like that. However, I managed to 'scare' her. Her parents came in to school crying and yelling and made a huge scene.
Basically, due to their crazy overreaction, I'm being fined quite a large amount of money.
Also, because of the threat of being fired, I'm afraid to do anything right now. I finish my contract in three weeks. Would it be too late to take legal action after the contract is finished? |
They are trying to not pay severance.
They should give you one month notice before firing you I believe. Just keep showing up to work since there is no written documents written saying you are fired.
Do not sign anything. |
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Otherside
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| tophatcat wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
It's not worth it now to fight for the money lost. Consider this a lesson learned.
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You sure give out a lot of advice for someone who gives out terrible advice. I hope no-one on these boards is silly enough to listen to you.
About anything. |
+1 |
+1. I just ignore his posts now. He may as well be posting in Russian. |
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kavanluc
Joined: 15 May 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it's been a pretty bad relationship here, for a lot of reasons. Lesson learned about franchised kindergarten hagwons. Anyway, I did try to talk with my director. He basically told me I didn't do anything wrong, but had to be fined because of the parents' reaction. I responded very calmly that I believed that was incredibly unfair, but his position was not moved. I did not mention that it was illegal, because of the threat of being fired.
Essentially, I was given an offer I couldn't refuse--sign the paper or be fired. Considering my last two months pay, severance, and airfare were on the line, I thought even if signing was a bad idea in the long run, it was better to lose 800,000W than like 7 million or so.
I don't believe they are trying to get out of paying severance or anything, because at the moment I think they believe they've gotten away with taking the 800,000W from me.
Basically, I believe my questions here were answered.
1) What they did was illegal.
2) I can still take legal action after my contract with them is finished.
As long as there is a chance I can recover the money after the contract is finished, I don't see a point in risking anything else right now.
Thanks everyone. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kavanluc wrote: |
Yes, it's been a pretty bad relationship here, for a lot of reasons. Lesson learned about franchised kindergarten hagwons. Anyway, I did try to talk with my director. He basically told me I didn't do anything wrong, but had to be fined because of the parents' reaction. I responded very calmly that I believed that was incredibly unfair, but his position was not moved. I did not mention that it was illegal, because of the threat of being fired.
Essentially, I was given an offer I couldn't refuse--sign the paper or be fired. Considering my last two months pay, severance, and airfare were on the line, I thought even if signing was a bad idea in the long run, it was better to lose 800,000W than like 7 million or so.
I don't believe they are trying to get out of paying severance or anything, because at the moment I think they believe they've gotten away with taking the 800,000W from me.
Basically, I believe my questions here were answered.
1) What they did was illegal.
2) I can still take legal action after my contract with them is finished.
As long as there is a chance I can recover the money after the contract is finished, I don't see a point in risking anything else right now.
Thanks everyone. |
Legal action costs time and money. You might persue it, but dollars to donuts you don't. You ate the 800,000 and your boss is laughing at you behind your back. Sorry, not trying to bash you. I'm glad you are able to swallow that pill and still work for them. Lord knows I couldn't.
However, you've now given him the green light to continue screwing people long after you are gone. Someone will have to stand up to it. Again, it is ILLEGAL.
He also, IIRC, cannot fire you in the last month of employment without giving you airfare, pension, severance, the whole nine yards. This was implemented years ago to combat all the 11 month firings by shady hagwons.
What I would have done is not threaten them, but inform them you want to get a second opinion from the labor board before you sign. Act innocent and concerned about finding out the "truth". One mention of the labor board and your problems probably would have been over. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| You can still go to the Labor Board regarding the 800,000 won. Of course, wait until you're in the last month of the contract or after you've moved on. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| You can still go to the Labor Board regarding the 800,000 won. Of course, wait until you're in the last month of the contract or after you've moved on. |
Why not the 11th month instead of the 12th? I'm 9 days from the 11th month of my contract and would like to take my school before the Labor Board week after next. Don't we have protection from the 11th month onward? |
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Porksta
Joined: 05 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| EZE wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| You can still go to the Labor Board regarding the 800,000 won. Of course, wait until you're in the last month of the contract or after you've moved on. |
Why not the 11th month instead of the 12th? I'm 9 days from the 11th month of my contract and would like to take my school before the Labor Board week after next. Don't we have protection from the 11th month onward? |
Because in order to fire you they have to give one month's notice. If you have less than a month left you cannot be fired. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| +1. I just ignore his posts now. He may as well be posting in Russian. |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| You can still go to the Labor Board regarding the 800,000 won. Of course, wait until you're in the last month of the contract or after you've moved on. |
Well, I challenge you to show receipts of this pursuit of 800,000 won. How much effort will it take to collect on 800,000 won when you can simply take another job and earn 2,000,000 in Korea or 1,000,000 in China with half the hours?
This doesn't have to be in Russian, this is common sense dumb bums. Fight it because it is a war? Fight it because you feel more like a man winning an 800,000 won fight? You put in how much to win it though?
Is it really worth it? Move on. Get your next gig and make the previous school annoyed and pissed off at you. It is much more entertaining 
You scold a student 3 weeks before the end of the contract and then you take legal action to collect on your mistake? This is unnecessary. At the end of the contract period, don't scold anyone. DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN A STUPID SPOT where you have to be the hero and take legal action to win 800,000 won.
It is completely idiotic, but if you want to create problems at the end of your contract period and fight to erase your mistakes, then by all means go ahead.
I on the other hand will find the exit door, release letter, and move on. You find a new school earlier than the contract period. That's one secret I am revealing to you rookies. You find a school to hire you and get you an apartment before the contract period. In my case, I will be living on campus at a new university this week. I will not have to teach until September. I will have rent sorted.
This means the 800,000 won loss is just a drop compared to the rent I would have paid. I lost 800,000 but I save 2.5 months rent. How much is that?
You guys need to learn outside of the box. Your mentality to win wars because you think there is some honor in it will eventually get to you.
I could understand if you were buying a house and ripped off, or maybe a car. However, we are talking monthly working at an English school. If it doesn't go right, ROOKIE LEAVE!!!
ROOKIE LEAVE!!!!
ROOKIE, FIND NEW SCHOOL. There are plenty of schools that will hire you and you can always get your losses back by moving on. You want to turn this into a Days of Our Lives drama by taking them to court, then you might as well become a lawyer and do it the right way. You don't need to be an English teacher in Asia to go to court. Go to your home country if you really want to legally fight this crap.
It ain't worth it though. Move on and get a new job.
Last edited by YTMND on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kavanluc
Joined: 15 May 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
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| +1. I just ignore his posts now. He may as well be posting in Russian. |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| You can still go to the Labor Board regarding the 800,000 won. Of course, wait until you're in the last month of the contract or after you've moved on. |
Well, I challenge you to show receipts of this pursuit of 800,000 won. How much effort will it take to collect on 800,000 won when you can simply take another job and earn 2,000,000 in Korea or 1,000,000 in China with half the hours?
This doesn't have to be in Russian, this is common sense dumb bums. Fight it because it is a war? Fight it because you feel more like a man winning an 800,000 won fight? You put in how much to win it though?
Is it really worth it? Move on. Get your next gig and make the previous school annoyed and pissed off at you. It is much more entertaining
You scold a student 3 weeks before the end of the contract and then you take legal action to collect on your mistake? This is unnecessary. At the end of the contract, don't scold anyone. DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN A STUPID SPOT where you have to be the hero and take legal action to win 800,000 won.
It is completely idiotic, but if you want to create problems at the end of your contract period and fight to erase your mistakes, then by all means go ahead.
I on the other hand will find the exit door, release letter, and move on. You find a new school earlier than the contract period. That's one secret I am revealing to you rookies. You find a school to hire you and get you an apartment before the contract period. In my case, I will be living on campus at a new university this week. I will not have to teach until September. I will have rent sorted.
This means the 800,000 won loss is just a drop compared to the rent I would have paid. I lost 800,000 but I save 2.5 months rent. How much is that?
You guys need to learn outside of the box. Your mentality to win wars because you think there is some honor in it will eventually get to you.
I could understand if you were buying a house and ripped off, or maybe a car. However, we are talking monthly working at an English school. If it doesn't go right, ROOKIE LEAVE!!!
ROOKIE LEAVE!!!!
ROOKIE, FIND NEW SCHOOL. There are plenty of schools that will hire you and you can always get your losses back by moving on. You want to turn this into a Days of Our Lives drama by taking them to court, then you might as well become a lawyer and do it the right way. You don't need to be an English teacher in Asia to go to court. Go to your home country if you really want to legally fight this crap.
It ain't worth it though. Move on and get a new job. |
Feel better now? Good lord. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Feel better now? Good lord. |
Much better, like giving birth to 2 healthy dinosaur twins. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| EZE wrote: |
| Why not the 11th month instead of the 12th? I'm 9 days from the 11th month of my contract and would like to take my school before the Labor Board week after next. Don't we have protection from the 11th month onward? |
Nope. You're protected from summary dismissal during--not before--the final month of your contract.
Now, I noticed that you used quotation marks for the word scared. I, as well as anyone else reading this, have no idea what you meant by that. Maybe you meant that was just her reaction to something rather tame such as, "Don't be yelling while another student is talking." Maybe she didn't like the face you made when you had to say that very same thing to the very same student for approximately the one thousandth time this year. Maybe she reacted to you getting too close to her to tell her, quietly, to quit causing a ruckus. It doesn't matter.
What matters is that YTMND is right on one thing: don't give the boss an excuse (not like the boss needs one anyway if he feels the need to "save some cash" by canning his foreign teacher). For years now, one of my mantras has been "Don't discipline the children. Don't discipline the children. Don't discipline the children." I've lost count of the number of NETs I know who've been canned for doing any kind of discipline whatsoever. Something like, "Okay, it's time to start. Let's be quiet." can--and has--been taken far out of proportion. "Let's be quiet" in English was reported by the student to his parent as "Foreigner told me to 'shut up.'" The parent then called the school to complain about the foreign teacher "cursing at the children." You have no defense to that. If you raise any defense, the boss will ask you why you are falsely accusing the child of telling a lie.
Don't discipline the kids. That's the Korean teacher's job. And do your utmost to not care at all how, or even if, the Korean teacher does that job. Your job is to soldier on. Ignore the troublemaker or "class clown" if there is one. They're looking for attention, not from you but from the other students. They're trying to make you look a fool. If you ignore them, then they'll just look foolish to the other students and you'll not have a crisis on your hands...maybe.
With your current crisis, you'd be wasting time and money, a lot of money to try to get 800,000 won back from the boss in a suit. Stick it out. Soldier on. Move on at the end of the contract. Get a new gig. Then go to the Labor Board for your money as it's illegal withholding of wages. And it doesn't cost you anything to go to the Labor Board. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:41 am Post subject: |
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It's too bad people are blaming the teacher for scolding the student.
A teacher needs to be able to control the classroom, that's part of the job, and students sometimes need to be scolded. That's just reality.
The student was 'scared'? Good. A little fear is good for behavior. The real problem is when they have NO fear at all. The teacher probably didn't even do anything different than a Korean teacher might do, but as a foreigner it's interpreted as 'scary' and becomes a major complaint. If a Korean teacher did it, you'd probably never hear about it; the kid would just accept it.
Imagine that, the parents come in pitching a fit at the teacher for scolding their kid... but the kid was scolded because she was bad. They should be thanking the teacher for steering the kid in the right direction. But of course the main problem is with the parents these days, raising princes and princesses with no discipline whatsoever. Then when they finally get some, it's a huge shock somehow.
Then you've got the swindler boss who steals money from the teacher, which sets a horrible precedent. He now thinks he can fine any teacher when a student leaves for any reason:
"You didn't let Min-ho jump up and down on his chair and scream! You scared him and he and his family were shamed when you told him to get down without a smile on your face. His parents are pulling him from the class. That's 800,000 won from your pay.
Also, Jee-su didn't like your shirt so she quit, and Ho-min is scared of the hair on your arms so he's out too. That's another 1,600,000 won. Hmm, looks like you owe ME money this month, what a deal!"
WTF... |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:25 am Post subject: |
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A teacher needs to be able to control the classroom, that's part of the job, and students sometimes need to be scolded. That's just reality.
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You don't need to convince us of that. Tell the parents and school owners. Then get back to us. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: |
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^ Absolutely and incredibly correct. The Korean hagweon bosses pull the same stunts on their Korean employees. The Korean employees tolerate it because they're used to tolerating it. The boss pulls the stunt on the foreigner because he's used to the stunt working. Then the boss is shocked when the foreigner reacts negatively to being cheated, chided, insulted, treated illegally, or blamed for something that is out of their control. Especially galling is when the boss blames the NET for something that is solely the boss's fault.
No, friends, this is not going to change because the vast majority of the hagweon employees are, of course, Koreans. Those Korean employees will continue to tolerate this. The bosses will not learn. And yet another NET will be thrown to the lions.
Ah, the Circle of Life. What a cute song. Not a good reality in the ESL business, though.
I forgot to ask the OP one thing. Did the boss also pull the lame trick of demanding that you pay the salary of the temporary teacher who'll be filling in while the boss is looking for your replacement? Ah, those were some good times with a boss who made that demand! |
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