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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
You're forgetting about all the financial assistance poor people get (simply for being poor).
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| It currently ensures that students with family household incomes under $65,000 �have no expected parental contribution for their education.� Students with family incomes of up to $150,000 �will have an average expected parent contribution of 10 percent or less of their income.� |
Poor people can go to Harvard for free.
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| Now, families with normal assets and income up to $65,000 will not be required to pay any tuition. Previously only families with normal assets and income up to $60,000 were not required to pay tuition. |
Now look at U Penn, the example you gave. The school will pay most of the tuition is the family is not rich.
http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/costs-financial-aid/how-aid-is-determined
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| Penn financial aid packages do not include loans, which means students are able to graduate debt-free. |
http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/costs-financial-aid/financial-aid-at-penn |
So out of the 5 points I make, you address one. Well at least you did that I suppose.
I used Penn as an example of higher education inflation. I am aware of the financial assistance you mentioned. Those top tier schools are really the only ones who are that generous with financial aid. Once you drop down just a little (as in go down from the top 10 to schools from 11 onward), bye bye generosity. Or at least to the extent that Harvard, Penn, and Princeton provide.
NY Times article on struggles poor people face with higher education
Yes, there were lots of dumb decisions the 3 girls made, and they certainly are responsible for what happened, but at the same time, it is clear that they would have benefited from more assistance and help that people from upper middle class backgrounds take for granted. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Saying welfare creates poverty is like saying medicine creates disease. |
While I am on your side in principle here, given misapplication of antibiotics can exacerbate the dangers of a disease in the long term by breeding antibiotic-resistant bacteria, is that really the analogy you want to use? |
Perhaps a better analogy would be having health insurance creates health problems. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Americans blame 'government welfare' for persistent pove |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Almost all those stats support my point of poor people who should not be reproducing reproducing being a major contributor (probably the main one) to poverty in America. Why is there so much child poverty in America? Because losers who shouldn't be having children are having them.
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So poor people are losers? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| BTW, what I wrote in the OP is not just me; it's majority American opinion. U mad? |
Your prevarication upsets me, yes. What you wrote in the OP is not majority American opinion, only 24% of Americans identified too much welfare that prevents initiative as the most responsible factor for the continuing problem of poverty. Meanwhile, taken together, 31% of Americans identify either a lack of job opportunities or a lack of good educational opportunities for poverty.
Anyway, your pattern of simplification is consistent with the results of a new study.
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| So where do we find these low effort thinkers? According to a study released last month (Eidelman et al., 2012), the answer is political: Those engaged in low effort thinking are more likely to report conservative political views. Now, before any right-leaning readers get their dander up, its important to note the direction of the relationship. The researchers did not test conservatives and discover low effort thinking. Instead, they did the reverse: They created circumstances designed to "disengage effortful, deliberative thought" -- for example through instructions, time pressure, manipulations to cognitive load, and even alcohol impairment -- and found that under these circumstances, the study participants tended to favor and express more conservative attitudes. "Political conservatism," the authors conclude, "may be a process consequence of low effort thought." |
You are simply a low-effort thinker. But unlike many low-effort thinkers, you are more shameless, as you are willing to generalize and stigmatize the poor as lazy and as losers. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
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"Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." (Barry Switzer)
I just like the above quote.
Anyway, it's pretty arrogant to think you know why so many people are poor. That problem has been around for a long time. It's a huge problem all over the world. No one has figured that out. I imagine there are just way too many complicated reasons, not just "losers having too many kids" and all that sort of nonsense. Who uses the word "losers" anyway? It shows no understanding of anything. It just shows how awesome you think you are. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| You are simply a low-effort thinker. But unlike many low-effort thinkers, you are more shameless, as you are willing to generalize and stigmatize the poor as lazy and as losers. |
I grew up going to inner city schools. (Think of a city like Cleveland.) I grew up around poverty. I hate to say it but I think I had deadbeat parents (at least to some degree). I had experiences you have not.
Immigrants coming to America dirt poor climb out of poverty within one generation. What do they have that other minorities and poor people don't? Certainly not connections. They came here knowing no one. But they worked hard and lived the American dream. They were victors, not victims. And they thought smart and strategically. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Since you/your friend got pwned on the facts, now you must resort to insults. Pretty banal and childish to attempt some personal attacks rather than trying to articulate a cogent thought. BTW, what I wrote in the OP is not just me; it's majority American opinion. U mad?
Record-low support for affirmative action, poll says
http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/12/record-low-support-for-affirmative-action-poll-says/
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| Nearly six out of 10 whites oppose affirmative action. |
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| Support has been slowly declining over the past 20 years. In 1991, 61% of Americans supported it. |
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Why are you linking Affirmative Action to poverty? By doing this you show you have no idea what you are talking about. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Saying welfare creates poverty is like saying medicine creates disease. |
While I am on your side in principle here, given misapplication of antibiotics can exacerbate the dangers of a disease in the long term by breeding antibiotic-resistant bacteria, is that really the analogy you want to use? |
Yes, I think the analogy works well. Do we conclude from the fact that antibiotics can exacerbate the dangers of disease that we should abandon Western medicine? Close down all hospitals? Of course not. Then why should we conclude from the fact that welfare dependency may exist that we should dismantle the welfare system? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Saying welfare creates poverty is like saying medicine creates disease. |
While I am on your side in principle here, given misapplication of antibiotics can exacerbate the dangers of a disease in the long term by breeding antibiotic-resistant bacteria, is that really the analogy you want to use? |
Yes, I think the analogy works well. Do we conclude from the fact that antibiotics can exacerbate the dangers of disease that we should abandon Western medicine? Close down all hospitals? Of course not. Then why should we conclude from the fact that welfare dependency may exist that we should dismantle the welfare system? |
We do conclude from that fact, though, that antibiotics ought to be tightly controlled and limited in availability. Now perhaps you feel welfare ought to be that way as well, but I do not: a fundamental basic quality of life being universally assured to the citizenry would be a supreme accomplishment of civilized compassion, even if it allowed some to live relatively unproductive lives in an austere fashion. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| Why are you linking Affirmative Action to poverty? By doing this you show you have no idea what you are talking about. |
It's an example of how majority opinion is shifting. And yes, affirmative action and poverty are not wholly unrelated. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| Why are you linking Affirmative Action to poverty? By doing this you show you have no idea what you are talking about. |
It's an example of how majority opinion is shifting. And yes, affirmative action and poverty are not wholly unrelated. |
Public opinion has shifted on many issues such as gay marriage and pot legalization. Majority opinion in the US also says that angels exist. So what's your point?
I would love to hear your thoughts on how affirmative action and poverty are related. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Its not majority opinion. WT's OP poll only showed 24% agreed with his statement that poverty is caused by gov't handouts. Furthermore, candidate Romney, of 47% fame, suffered a decisive defeat against a weak incumbent in a lackluster economy. Romney also blamed gov't hand-outs for the current Depression.
More Americans than not actually know better. World Traveler is full of []it. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
More Americans than not actually know better. World Traveler is full of []it. |
Truth. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| I grew up going to inner city schools. (Think of a city like Cleveland.) I grew up around poverty. I hate to say it but I think I had deadbeat parents (at least to some degree). I had experiences you have not. |
I'm curious why you assume that others posting here have not had similar experiences? Just because someone does not state it outright, it does not mean that they therefore have no experience with it.
| Quote: |
| Immigrants coming to America dirt poor climb out of poverty within one generation. What do they have that other minorities and poor people don't? Certainly not connections. They came here knowing no one. But they worked hard and lived the American dream. They were victors, not victims. And they thought smart and strategically. |
Yes, it depends on a person's own drive. I am no immigrant, but I was given financial aid to go to university and managed to turn the outlook for my life around. The only reason I received the financial aid I needed - and a not insignificant portion of it was loans rather than grants - was due to earning a respectable score on the SAT. My high school grades were mediocre due to the difficulties of studying effectively in such a negative environment such as the one poor youths grow up in.
Once I got into university and broke free of that environment, my grades improved, as did my mindset. None of this would have been possible without the welfare benefits we were granted during my high school years helping to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads. It complemented my own drive to escape being poor, so I do not agree that welfare provisions should be eliminated wholesale to somehow encourage the poor to try harder. On the contrary, it will make things worse for those who wish to escape it.
This is the second time in this thread you have tried to angle your position like you have greater insight into the poverty issue than everyone else participating. You said you spent a few weeks or so on food stamps, right? Well, in my personal experience, it doesn't get any less demeaning to be on them for a few years, it continues to suck as time goes by. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:58 am Post subject: |
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It's people who think like World Traveler who have ruined the USA (among others). Through highly effective propaganda, the elites in America have convinced lower middles class nobodies like World Traveler that they have the same interests:" "Unions are bad and communistic, universal health care is for socialist Europeans- don't wanna be like them, we are defending our freedom in Iraq and Trashcanistan( how many congressmen have lost kids over there), say no to the inheritance tax. The list goes on and on.
The elites use hints of racism and christian fundamentalism in their messages. I wish these people would wake up and realize that they are not in the elite classes and never will be. They need to stop supporting issues that are diametrically opposed to their own true interests. |
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