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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Patrick,
That was a good post.
I realize that you're purposely vague about where you work, other than that you work for the federal government, but are you willing to tell us what field it is?
And I assume that the consulting side job is hiring TEFL teachers for schools in Korea or something related to study abroad for Korean students. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| newchamp wrote: |
To all the would-be ESL teachers being tempted to come here by MetFitX's posts, here's what he said a few months ago in another thread:
| MetaFitX wrote: |
Monday through Friday I work in a hakwon from 9-7. However, I generally come in around 8 and quite often stay till 8. I'd say on any given week I work around 55 hours or so. Is this normal??
The hakwon where I work must be the only school that I know of where the foreign staff arrives BEFORE and leaves AFTER the Korean staff. It's not necessarily the prep work (although it's a lot) but the copious amount of paperwork (grading, phone teaching, report cards and all that fun stuff). |
It doesn't sound like he's living a luxury lifestyle after all. |
Typical esler it looks like; scored with a 3/10 and thinks this is the greatest place on earth. Good find, newchamp. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In other words you have no argument so you are going to engage in specious allegations and personal attacks.
I also posted a link from the Financial Post...which I noticed you didn't address.
As for the SUN...those are NOT the SUN's stats. I suppose if the SUN was to say that the sun sets in the west that you would dispute that too because it appeared in the SUN? |
I never said they were the SUN's stats. I merely took issue with the way the SUN uses those stats. They parrot on and on about how Canadian taxes are too high and throw out a number (which includes all taxes and deductions) but pretend that Canadians get nothing in return. I'm a Canadian resident and I feel quite satisfied with the services that are returned. It sure isn�t perfect, but compared to the rest of the world? Come on.
So sorry if I don�t take your argument seriously when you A) haven�t been a Canadian tax payer living in Canada for well over a decade+ , and B) You�re quoting FOX news Canada to bolster your argument that taxes are out of control and the bully feds are taking everything.
The financial post isn�t much better when talking about public services, which they see as something to be chopped and privatized completely. Are public services overburdened? Yes. Is the sky falling? No. And if it is I�d rather be in Canada than South Korea, dependent on government money flowing to public schools for English that could evaporate instantly. Thank you.
| Quote: |
| Misher doomsayers like you have come and gone in this industry. You can keep your negative view but we will keep making money and smiling. There are no brakes being put on the ESL industry. |
You will get no argument from me here. ESL will continue to grow and yeah, there will always be jobs. However, don�t expect any security equivalent to other professions from a single job or increases in pay no matter how much you bust your butt for a single employer. The barriers to entry are just too low and employers will just hire part-timers or full-timers that will take less pay to do your job. If you have kids and are the main breadwinner, I wouldn�t be depending on ESL/EFL that�s for sure. Unless you want to be doing 35-40+ CONTACT hours a week just to make a livable salary.
It also isn�t easy to just pick up and move around either. If you�re single and want no strings attached by moving contract to contract on an annual basis then I guess it can be ok.
| Quote: |
Misher,
What career do you have?
Any way you want to look at it, taxes are high - 40% and up, for many people. |
I certainly don�t fork over that much in taxes. But then again I don�t have a salary well into six figures. I�m not going to argue that taxes are high but you can�t have services without paying for it. It would be an entirely different story, if our services were mediocre to poor or non-existent (like in South Korea) but although not perfect, it ranks as some of the best in the world. And yeah, you have to pay for it.
Like Patrick, I�m with the feds and I have to admit, it is a pretty good lifestyle so far and far preferable to ESL/EFL. Although I liked teaching, I just couldn�t stand the industry and its increasing shadiness. I feel badly for some of the guys I know that are great teachers, but constantly get jerked around and no respect even with all of their experience and their popularity with students. It is also stressful for them because they have mouths to feed, too old to go back to Canada and change careers, and didn�t start out in ESL/EFL in the 80s/90s when the gettin� was good. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| misher wrote: |
| Quote: |
In other words you have no argument so you are going to engage in specious allegations and personal attacks.
I also posted a link from the Financial Post...which I noticed you didn't address.
As for the SUN...those are NOT the SUN's stats. I suppose if the SUN was to say that the sun sets in the west that you would dispute that too because it appeared in the SUN? |
I never said they were the SUN's stats. I merely took issue with the way the SUN uses those stats. They parrot on and on about how Canadian taxes are too high and throw out a number (which includes all taxes and deductions) but pretend that Canadians get nothing in return. I'm a Canadian resident and I feel quite satisfied with the services that are returned. It sure isn�t perfect, but compared to the rest of the world? Come on.
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Oh for now they may be decent comparatively speaking. But as the FP points out they are due for a $93 billion shortfall by 2025. Meaning drastic cuts will have to made to those services. And that is true regardless of the FP's stance on public services.
As for compared to the rest of the world, Canada's health care was ranked with 17 peer nations and got no better than a "B" grade and 10th place.*
Yes I'm not a Canadian taxpayer but still an Canadian citizen. Unlike most people here I've worked both in Canada and South Korea as a teacher (as I've said many times before) And after dealing with taxes, services and other issues...Korea comes out ahead financially (at least for me). If you've managed to make Canada work for you then that's great, I'm happy for you. But for others Korea may well be a better option.
And as for being satisfied with the services...you well may be so but that puts you in a minority of Canadians especially when it comes to the health care services...which is probably #1 for most Canadians.
*
| Quote: |
In 2012 the Conference Board of Canada measured
Canada�s health performance against 16 peer
countries on the following 11 report card indicato
rs: life expectancy; self-reported health status;
premature mortality; mortality due to cancer; mortal
ity due to circulatory disease; mortality due to
respiratory disease; mortality due to diabetes; mortal
ity due to diseases of the musculoskeletal system;
mortality due to mental disorder
s; infant mortality; and mortality due to medical misadventures
1
.
While this report showed Canada maintaining a �B
� grade and its 10th place amongst the 17 peer
countries, the report showed that against its peers
Canada continues to perform poorly on certain key
indicators. |
http://www.chamber.ca/images/uploads/Proposed_resolutions/2012/EN/56-Healthcare.pdf |
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markness
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Boys and ghouls, I keep seeing the vets recommending China to the "noobs" (myself). I see lots of job openings on the job boards in the Korea and Chinese section. Are the Korean jobs that I am seeing that bad? They seem pretty similar to the Chinese positions.. haha. China has 6 day work weeks by the way. (At least it did for me when I did my stint at a private institute in a north eastern city there). The jobs with bad hours are pretty much the norm in China unless you work at a university, but hey! I just wanted to share what I know. Take care everyone! |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| misher wrote: |
| Quote: |
In other words you have no argument so you are going to engage in specious allegations and personal attacks.
I also posted a link from the Financial Post...which I noticed you didn't address.
As for the SUN...those are NOT the SUN's stats. I suppose if the SUN was to say that the sun sets in the west that you would dispute that too because it appeared in the SUN? |
I never said they were the SUN's stats. I merely took issue with the way the SUN uses those stats. They parrot on and on about how Canadian taxes are too high and throw out a number (which includes all taxes and deductions) but pretend that Canadians get nothing in return. I'm a Canadian resident and I feel quite satisfied with the services that are returned. It sure isn�t perfect, but compared to the rest of the world? Come on.
|
Oh for now they may be decent comparatively speaking. But as the FP points out they are due for a $93 billion shortfall by 2025. Meaning drastic cuts will have to made to those services. And that is true regardless of the FP's stance on public services.
As for compared to the rest of the world, Canada's health care was ranked with 17 peer nations and got no better than a "B" grade and 10th place.*
Yes I'm not a Canadian taxpayer but still an Canadian citizen. Unlike most people here I've worked both in Canada and South Korea as a teacher (as I've said many times before) And after dealing with taxes, services and other issues...Korea comes out ahead financially (at least for me). If you've managed to make Canada work for you then that's great, I'm happy for you. But for others Korea may well be a better option.
And as for being satisfied with the services...you well may be so but that puts you in a minority of Canadians especially when it comes to the health care services...which is probably #1 for most Canadians.
*
| Quote: |
In 2012 the Conference Board of Canada measured
Canada�s health performance against 16 peer
countries on the following 11 report card indicato
rs: life expectancy; self-reported health status;
premature mortality; mortality due to cancer; mortal
ity due to circulatory disease; mortality due to
respiratory disease; mortality due to diabetes; mortal
ity due to diseases of the musculoskeletal system;
mortality due to mental disorder
s; infant mortality; and mortality due to medical misadventures
1
.
While this report showed Canada maintaining a �B
� grade and its 10th place amongst the 17 peer
countries, the report showed that against its peers
Canada continues to perform poorly on certain key
indicators. |
http://www.chamber.ca/images/uploads/Proposed_resolutions/2012/EN/56-Healthcare.pdf |
Depends on where you live. Quebec and the Martiimes have quite high taxes and heavy regulatory burdens. Great for those who have the swank government jobs. But for most of the rest of us, we get kicked in the teeth with high unemployent.
If you're in western Canada, tax rates are lower. If you're making 20 to 30K a year, I think you have more taxes taken out in America. I recall two girls, one from supposedly high taxed New York and another from supposedly low taxed south (North Carolina). The both had a similiar income working for a year before coming to Korea and paid around 25% total tax. This was medicare tax (which they didn't get to use), pension, state, and local income taxes.
In Canada, you have provincial income taxes, federal income taxes, Canada Pension Plan payments, and Employment Insurance (if you lose your job). I recalled being in a similiar income bracket about 10 years back to these two girls and I never had more than 12 or 13 % of income for these things and I got free health care (albiet with very long wait times and a month before seeing a family doctor).
The first 10 grand in income in Canada is not taxed, but seems to be in the US from the first dollar you make. For example, if you make $45,000 a year, you're actually taxed on $35,000 a year. Overall, tax burden is similiar for most people in the US and Canada. Canada with lower rates and the US with more deductions. Sales tax a little bit higher in many provinces, but all other things lower or equal.
I think the only break American families get is the home mortgage tax deduction which allows American middle class to deduct their mortgage payments from their income taxes. Canadians don't get this. But single earners are within a very similiar range to the US ones. Rich pay a little less tax in Canada with recent tax hikes brought by Obama and congress. Also, Canada doesn't have death taxes (or an inheritance tax).
Alberta is the lowest tax province in Canada. It has a 5% sales tax (Federal government sales tax) and a 10% flat provincial income tax on all income. All other provinces have a progressive income tax. Other provinces also charge their sales taxes on top of the federal one, so that total sales tax paid is 13%.
Taxes were higher, but budget cuts to head off a financial crises in the 90's brought huge surpluses. Then when the Bush tax cuts were offered in America, Canadian business leaders and politicians started frieking out worrying about our economy being competitve. So, Parliament began cutting tax rates for Canadians in the early 2000,s and by the late 2000's cut the national sales tax from 7% to 5%. Many provinces followed suit, some began before in the 1990's. Some cut big and some cut slightly (eastern Canada).
Unlike Thatcher and Reagan who grabbed headlines, Canada was all but ignored, when we did the impossible and made the tough unpopular choices. We were the only G8 country to have budget surpluses every year before the 2008 crash. That said, America is still the world's economic engine and we need their booming economy to trade with like many other countries. Our country can only do so much on it's own. So, it is quite common for Canadians to have opinions and be quite knowledgable about American politics. A lot of Reagan's ideas flowed into political movements there in the 1990's.
If Republican congressmen can complain about the evil socialist Canadians in the 1990's and hippies like John Lennon can go hang out with former prime minister Pierre Trudeau in the 1960's, then us Canadians can and will have an opinion about US politics too. (That and I have US relatives living state side.) Our fates are tied together as two countries whether either of us like it or not.
Anyways, it depends on where you live. Some US states and some Canadian provinces are better and some are worse than others. As for the whole tax argument, no one ever seems to talk about jobs and unemployment. High tax (and other burdens) usually equals high unemployment, while low taxes (and other burdens) usually equals low unemployment. The key is trying to get things right with the right balance. A 4 to 5 % unemployment rate is ideal, making it easier for folks to find a job.
As for us, we all love the lower taxes we get to pay over here. Really boosts our incomes much higher than what they are on paper. Though if we want more social services and other things over here, we'll pay more for it. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
Patrick,
That was a good post.
I realize that you're purposely vague about where you work, other than that you work for the federal government, but are you willing to tell us what field it is?
And I assume that the consulting side job is hiring TEFL teachers for schools in Korea or something related to study abroad for Korean students. |
1- No I will not specify which dept or agency or partner firm but the field is related to IR.
2- You assume wrong about the consulting. It has nothing to do with TEFL or with the hiring of teachers nor with students, sorry. I think I already stated in broad terms what it was about but in short: inter-cultural training and development (used to be called croos-cultural T & D). Clients include Asian and North Am Companies, nothing to do with teaching or teachers. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Plenty of facebooking from 2006 to 2009 and not attracting very many people at all. I still say it's the recession. |
Active Facebook users:
1 million — End of 2004.
5.5 million — End of 2005.
12 million — End of 2006.
50 million — October 2007.
100 million — August 2008.
350 million — End of 2009.
608 million — End of 2010.
845 million — End of 2011.
1.01 billion — September 2012.
Check out the E-2 numbers:
2004 - 11,296
2005 - 12,439
2006 - 15,001
2007 - 17,721
2008 - 19,771
2009 - 22,642
2010 - 23,317
Although you didn't feel it (in your public schoool because the number of applicants did not exceed the number of job openings until the fall of 2009), the Korean ESL job market changed A LOT between 2006 and 2009. It deteriorated so much. In what ways? University jobs became MUCH harder to get. In 2006, an unrelated BA and a couple years experience in a hagwon or public school was enough to get a university position in Seoul. Now, no way. (Additionally, working conditions changed for the worse quite a bit in many universities between 2006 and 2009. The Midnight Runner podcast addressed that.) |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Plenty of facebooking from 2006 to 2009 and not attracting very many people at all. I still say it's the recession. |
Active Facebook users:
1 million — End of 2004.
5.5 million — End of 2005.
12 million — End of 2006.
50 million — October 2007.
100 million — August 2008.
350 million — End of 2009.
608 million — End of 2010.
845 million — End of 2011.
1.01 billion — September 2012.
Check out the E-2 numbers:
2004 - 11,296
2005 - 12,439
2006 - 15,001
2007 - 17,721
2008 - 19,771
2009 - 22,642
2010 - 23,317
Although you didn't feel it (in your public schoool because the number of applicants did not exceed the number of job openings until the fall of 2009), the Korean ESL job market changed A LOT between 2006 and 2009. It deteriorated so much. In what ways? University jobs became MUCH harder to get. In 2006, an unrelated BA and a couple years experience in a hagwon or public school was enough to get a university position in Seoul. Now, no way. (Additionally, working conditions changed for the worse quite a bit in many universities between 2006 and 2009. The Midnight Runner podcast addressed that.) |
It has nothing to do with facebook.
I was there in 2009 during a GEPIK meeting when we had Dain Bae pleading with us to tell our friends to come on over because they were that short of teachers and advertising the TALK programme 'where we will take anyone with an AA degree'.
That summer, I fancied a change of pace and applied to Gangwon public schools but was told that all the positions had been filled as a glut of American newbs had flown over that summer and then the market was flooded there and then.
If you have other pressing things to do and can get something decent near home, people aren't going to fly out to Korea to teach English, it's because they haven't got anything else on better.
That would be like blaming Portuguese emigration to Macao, Angola and Brazil on facebook and not the worldwide economic meltdown.  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
[Also, Canada doesn't have death taxes (or an inheritance tax).
. |
http://estatelawcanada.blogspot.kr/2010/03/does-canada-have-death-taxes-or.html
| Quote: |
| There are plenty of tax consequences when a person passes away, even if there is no specific tax on dying. This is because a person's assets are deemed by law to have been disposed of by the deceased one minute before he or she died. |
There are certain loopholes that can be used but if they don't fit your specific situation your estate is going to be paying taxes when you die. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
[Also, Canada doesn't have death taxes (or an inheritance tax).
. |
http://estatelawcanada.blogspot.kr/2010/03/does-canada-have-death-taxes-or.html
| Quote: |
| There are plenty of tax consequences when a person passes away, even if there is no specific tax on dying. This is because a person's assets are deemed by law to have been disposed of by the deceased one minute before he or she died. |
There are certain loopholes that can be used but if they don't fit your specific situation your estate is going to be paying taxes when you die. |
Regular tax rates on income earned. Not an additional tax rate imposed on your estate's total value. USA would have all taxes on income and then have to deal with an estate tax. If you're inheriting a small or medium sized business where most of the money is tied up in assets in a small or medium sized town, it presents a real problem. It means you have to either sell the business and put people out of work or take on expensive loans to pay off the IRS. Money which can't be used by the business to expand, give raises, or do other things. Getting billionaires to pay a small fraction of a penalty is ok. But too many of these death taxes do seriously constrict economic growth, especially if richer folks can just pack up and move to the Cayman Islands. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Plenty of facebooking from 2006 to 2009 and not attracting very many people at all. I still say it's the recession. |
Active Facebook users:
1 million — End of 2004.
5.5 million — End of 2005.
12 million — End of 2006.
50 million — October 2007.
100 million — August 2008.
350 million — End of 2009.
608 million — End of 2010.
845 million — End of 2011.
1.01 billion — September 2012.
Check out the E-2 numbers:
2004 - 11,296
2005 - 12,439
2006 - 15,001
2007 - 17,721
2008 - 19,771
2009 - 22,642
2010 - 23,317
Although you didn't feel it (in your public schoool because the number of applicants did not exceed the number of job openings until the fall of 2009), the Korean ESL job market changed A LOT between 2006 and 2009. It deteriorated so much. In what ways? University jobs became MUCH harder to get. In 2006, an unrelated BA and a couple years experience in a hagwon or public school was enough to get a university position in Seoul. Now, no way. (Additionally, working conditions changed for the worse quite a bit in many universities between 2006 and 2009. The Midnight Runner podcast addressed that.) |
It has nothing to do with facebook.
I was there in 2009 during a GEPIK meeting when we had Dain Bae pleading with us to tell our friends to come on over because they were that short of teachers and advertising the TALK programme 'where we will take anyone with an AA degree'.
That summer, I fancied a change of pace and applied to Gangwon public schools but was told that all the positions had been filled as a glut of American newbs had flown over that summer and then the market was flooded there and then.
If you have other pressing things to do and can get something decent near home, people aren't going to fly out to Korea to teach English, it's because they haven't got anything else on better.
That would be like blaming Portuguese emigration to Macao, Angola and Brazil on facebook and not the worldwide economic meltdown. |
Exactly, supply and demand. Most of that growth in Facebook is in other non English speaking countries anyhow. I recall Facebook not even becoming popular over here until 2010 and beyond. The numbers of E2 hadn't risen. But the numbers of folks applying for those positions have. Though I think things have died down from what they were 2009 to 2011ish. Still not great though. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
Exactly, supply and demand. Most of that growth in Facebook is in other non English speaking countries anyhow. I recall Facebook not even becoming popular over here until 2010 and beyond. The numbers of E2 hadn't risen. But the numbers of folks applying for those positions have. Though I think things have died down from what they were 2009 to 2011ish. Still not great though. |
2009 was weird, a lot of folks thought they had a job for life and then one day - it literally happened that quick - you couldn't find a job, and then SMOE screwed all those teachers on the day they were meant to fly out and got away with it.
I mean - when I enquired about Gangwon PS and was told that all the jobs were taken. That was a shock to the system that times had changed and that I would be moving on elsewhere, best thing ever to happen perspnally but the salad days in Korea were truly over and a lot of people I knew moved on. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:11 am Post subject: |
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I agree with the latest posts here.
The market flooded because of an influx of applicants as a result of difficult economic conditions in the West (most US real estate crisis).
As to why people go abroad to teach...
Many would do so out of necessity (no job at home). Many also do so because they just graduated and see it as a shot at travel, adventure while being paid for what they perceive as an "easy gig" (teaching English). Some do so out of interest for teaching internationally or for family reasons (met a spouse from abroad).
The market in Korea now is indeed an employers market. There is no denying this and this affects mostly new applicants who compete for entry-level positions. It may also affect long term expats in Korea who did not bother to improve their qualifications over the years and still sit on an old B.A. in an unrelated topic. Such people can find themselves in front of tough choices as employers will choose younger applicants for entry-level positions. that can also mean such people may have to accept stagnating wages to keep getting jobs (which is in part normal because today if you do not continually improve/upgrade your qualifications, you will eventually be left out in the cold). I certainly know a couple of expats in Korea who have been there for 7-10 years now and who rely on their B.A. + experience. A lot of them are now finding it tougher to find better positions as the market is more competitive and a few have had to accept lower wages at lesser quality jobs. Conversely, the people I know who upgraded their qualifications and networked tend to make out far better in this market.
Just my two cents. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| the people I know who upgraded their qualifications and networked tend to make out far better |
Obvio.
But in fairness people should not have to spend their lives chasing after ever further further education, just to maintain the same level of employment.
Its a scam by which they constantly move the goalposts forcing you to spend all your money on very expensive qualifications. You live to pay off education bills and it never ends. How many years do people spend in academia now compared to 50 years ago? half their life?
I'm not just talking about esl here. Its become the widespread reality. No more job for life, we're kept hopping around from one hotplate to the next and robbed of our gold every time we jump. |
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