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CrikeyKorea
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Heogi, Seoul
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry, Crikey, just to be clear - are you saying that pedestrians don't have the legal right of way in a crosswalk? |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| think what he's trying to say is that you should be careful when crossing the street, here or anywhere. you shouldn't just walk out in a suicidal way at anytime without looking first, although that does seem to be the way they tend to be doing it back home more often these days. all the money you receive because you had the legal right of way won't help you if you're dead. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Careful on the sidewalk/parking lot too. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Sorry, Crikey, just to be clear - are you saying that pedestrians don't have the legal right of way in a crosswalk? |
My guess (and that's all it is - never been able to find out for definite) as to the legal position is that what he is saying is correct. At crossings without lights, there is no specific regulation over right of way. It is simply a suggestion of where pedestrians should cross the road, taking the normal sensible precautions in doing so.
From what I've heard from a handful of Koreans I've spoken to with knowledge of liability issues on the road, if a pedestrian using a crossing without lights is involved in a collision with a car, then the blame ratio will always go against the driver more than it would have done had the exact same accident occurred on another legally unregulated part of the road.
As I said above, people used to the legal cultures of most English speaking countries will often find it hard to get their head around many situations they assume must be legally regulated as A in the right, B in the wrong but actually aren't legally regulated at all. You don't have to be that observant to figure out that this is how it often works in practice here, and I'm pretty sure there are a number of cases where that's what the law says (or more precisely doesn't say) as well.
Again, certainly not saying I approve of it, but I think that's roughly what the legal position is. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| And they don't really jump the red-light anymore. |
Get your eyes tested! |
If you were here longer you'd understand. The first few rows of cars would start rolling even when the other light was still green. And if you weren't rolling you'd get horns blaring at you like no tomorrow. These days it ain't as bad.
As for the light switching yes it is definitely different from home. First thing I noticed. I don't know if it's the space constraints, or whatever, but Korea doesn't seem to design streets for that left turning lane. So it's alternate 1 in 4. Very stressful if you really got to pee... |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
| 3DR wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Sometimes I get so angry at Korean drivers that I think they should not be allowed to control anything more complicated than a shopping trolley. And then I go to Emart and some of them seem to have problems doing that. |
I think awareness of space and others in general whether it be walking, pushing a cart in emart, or driving is just not high here. |
It's certainly very hard not to come to that conclusion and it's something that still often comes to my mind, even long after getting a lot more used to how things work here.
However, I think another big factor here is that there's a much greater expectation on others to do their bit to avoid a collision. So in other words, if I'm walking down the street looking at my phone and not where I'm going and you're walking towards me, you're not completely devoid of responsibility to move out of the way or do whatever to avoid a collision. Similarly, it seems on the road there's almost as much of an expectation on cars behind to honk and warn of their presence as there is on the cars in front to look in their mirror or over their shoulders to check the way is clear.
For people from the countries most of us come from, where we're more used to the kind of black or white certainty of it's either my right of way here or your right of way here, it can be pretty hard to get used to the much more fluid and confused approach of 'figure it out amongst ourselves...errr...somehow or other' here.
I'm not saying I like or approve of the way it's done here - I usually don't - but if you can't at least partly go towards understanding the different mindset regarding pedestrian and vehicular interaction, then you're probably in for a pretty frustrating daily existence. |
This is true.
I drove for the very first time here in Jeju last weekend. I learned to bogart the hell out of cars instead of worrying if I was going to hit them or not (especially when trying to go through round abouts which they have a lot of in Jeju).
I couldn't imagine driving in Seoul. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:46 am Post subject: |
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B-class rambler is dead on.
Also, as someone who did drive in Korea for a while and in Busan to boot (crazy drivers that can rival Rome's own crazy drivers!) it is a different game than driving in Canada. This goes double for pedestrians and how and where they should cross the street.
Where we live in Canada, they have marked out pedestrian crosswalks that have no traffic lights. Technically, if a pedestrian intends on crossing the street at one of the those, he or she has the right of way and drivers should stop. In reality, many times drivers just blast through. In Korea, there is no such rule for crosswalks. When there is a traffic light, pedestrians would be well advised to wait for the green light and then to check around while they cross.
Just takes some getting used to. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
It's certainly very hard not to come to that conclusion and it's something that still often comes to my mind, even long after getting a lot more used to how things work here.
However, I think another big factor here is that there's a much greater expectation on others to do their bit to avoid a collision. So in other words, if I'm walking down the street looking at my phone and not where I'm going and you're walking towards me, you're not completely devoid of responsibility to move out of the way or do whatever to avoid a collision. Similarly, it seems on the road there's almost as much of an expectation on cars behind to honk and warn of their presence as there is on the cars in front to look in their mirror or over their shoulders to check the way is clear.
For people from the countries most of us come from, where we're more used to the kind of black or white certainty of it's either my right of way here or your right of way here, it can be pretty hard to get used to the much more fluid and confused approach of 'figure it out amongst ourselves...errr...somehow or other' here.
I'm not saying I like or approve of the way it's done here - I usually don't - but if you can't at least partly go towards understanding the different mindset regarding pedestrian and vehicular interaction, then you're probably in for a pretty frustrating daily existence. |
It's not about right-of-way at all. Koreans generally just don't have much civic responsibility, if at all. Most locals are primarily concerned with how fast they can get where they want to go and that's the end of it. It's not that there is an inherent co-responsibility, it's just that Koreans don't even register the presence of obstacles in their path. This, combined with a very small personal space, and lack of spacial awareness in a tiny country makes for the hot mess that unfolds out there.
This is evident from:
- the nature of the dozens of accidents recorded by black boxes and broadcast every morning on KBS Morning Wide.
- the fact that parents don't buckle up their children, or use car seats.
- drivers flying through school zones or red lights, and the police directing traffic do nothing about it.
- the trash thrown on the streets when there is a trash can meters away.
- public transport when the front half of the bus is packed like a sardine can, and the back half is ignored.
- people coughing and sneezing right into the back of other's heads without covering their mouths.
- drivers sitting and waiting to turn left across a busy multilane street, holding up trafiic behind them, rather than just turning right and going around the block or doing a u turn at the next intersection.
- the fact that people will stop and stand right in the middle of the sidewalk at bus stops rathe than stand outside the flow of pedestrian traffic.
And I'm sure we've all experienced walking alongside a wall, or fence, and someone is walking towards but slightly further away from the wall. You clearly have nowhere to go to avoid a collision, and end up smacking shoulders with them. It's surprising, because they were looking right at you, and slowly but surely merged into your restricted path.
How about when you're standing next to something, and someone would rather attempt to squeeze between you and the object you are standing next to, rather than make two extra steps to go around you. This is a hilarious event to experience because the time and energy it takes for the person to contort and squeeze by, is more than the energy and time needed to step around.
Stand near any shiny surface here, and see how often and how long people will stop to primp themselves, and you'll get the picture. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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^ The above poster is correct. It is all part of a larger mindset. How Koreans relate to crosswalks cannot be seen in isolation from the other behaviors we observe daily. It's all part of the same phenomenon....Some of you are overthinking this. It's simple old fashioned selfishness with a Confucionist twist. "Not in my little bubble of relations, then get the hell out of my way. Your existence is nothing but an annoyance to me."  |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| b-class rambler wrote: |
It's certainly very hard not to come to that conclusion and it's something that still often comes to my mind, even long after getting a lot more used to how things work here.
However, I think another big factor here is that there's a much greater expectation on others to do their bit to avoid a collision. So in other words, if I'm walking down the street looking at my phone and not where I'm going and you're walking towards me, you're not completely devoid of responsibility to move out of the way or do whatever to avoid a collision. Similarly, it seems on the road there's almost as much of an expectation on cars behind to honk and warn of their presence as there is on the cars in front to look in their mirror or over their shoulders to check the way is clear.
For people from the countries most of us come from, where we're more used to the kind of black or white certainty of it's either my right of way here or your right of way here, it can be pretty hard to get used to the much more fluid and confused approach of 'figure it out amongst ourselves...errr...somehow or other' here.
I'm not saying I like or approve of the way it's done here - I usually don't - but if you can't at least partly go towards understanding the different mindset regarding pedestrian and vehicular interaction, then you're probably in for a pretty frustrating daily existence. |
It's not about right-of-way at all. Koreans generally just don't have much civic responsibility, if at all. Most locals are primarily concerned with how fast they can get where they want to go and that's the end of it. It's not that there is an inherent co-responsibility, it's just that Koreans don't even register the presence of obstacles in their path. This, combined with a very small personal space, and lack of spacial awareness in a tiny country makes for the hot mess that unfolds out there.
This is evident from:
- the nature of the dozens of accidents recorded by black boxes and broadcast every morning on KBS Morning Wide.
- the fact that parents don't buckle up their children, or use car seats.
- drivers flying through school zones or red lights, and the police directing traffic do nothing about it.
- the trash thrown on the streets when there is a trash can meters away.
- public transport when the front half of the bus is packed like a sardine can, and the back half is ignored.
- people coughing and sneezing right into the back of other's heads without covering their mouths.
- drivers sitting and waiting to turn left across a busy multilane street, holding up trafiic behind them, rather than just turning right and going around the block or doing a u turn at the next intersection.
- the fact that people will stop and stand right in the middle of the sidewalk at bus stops rathe than stand outside the flow of pedestrian traffic.
And I'm sure we've all experienced walking alongside a wall, or fence, and someone is walking towards but slightly further away from the wall. You clearly have nowhere to go to avoid a collision, and end up smacking shoulders with them. It's surprising, because they were looking right at you, and slowly but surely merged into your restricted path.
How about when you're standing next to something, and someone would rather attempt to squeeze between you and the object you are standing next to, rather than make two extra steps to go around you. This is a hilarious event to experience because the time and energy it takes for the person to contort and squeeze by, is more than the energy and time needed to step around.
Stand near any shiny surface here, and see how often and how long people will stop to primp themselves, and you'll get the picture. |
You clearly have a considerably greater need to get various frustrations off your chest than I do, but, sifting through all of that, it would appear you're basically agreeing with me. Fair enough and stay safe out there. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hah. No, clearly i'm not agreeing with you, nor am I getting any frustrations off my chest. You think there is an expectation for drivers behind to warn of their presence, and I think drivers warn of their presence because they know they are not a factor in anyone else's thought process. Expectation requires acknowledgment, and in my view, acknowledgement is clearly lacking. Locals glance in the rearview mirror and see nothing, so there simply must be no one in their blind spot. It's time to change lanes without a signal.
I listed observations to support my claim. Why make it anything more than that?
Last edited by crescent on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| No, I quite agree. Drivers behind honk because they think the car in front doesn't realise they're there. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| That's not how you originally phrased it. |
Yes, you're quite correct. That isn't how I originally phrased my reference to drivers honking at those in front of them. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Then you are saying two completely different things. |
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