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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| andrewchon wrote: |
| What makes you think that 70 bil will be spent on dept reduction? |
True. Frankly I don't think any amount of tax, nor any amount of expense cuts, nor any amount of economic expansion will help the USA. Maybe I'm just a skeptic.  |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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As an outsider to this discussion, please excuse my ignorance.
I thought the current US monetary system was created by the federal bank making money (out of thin air and then printing it) and then loaning it to the government with interest. So the money that doesn't even exist, then creates debt? This has been going on for quite some time now so the debt that will have amassed, will be enormous.
In theory, isn't that impossible to pay back because at some point, the money wont exist to repay the debt? |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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^ LOL, I like your analysis.
Money is rather abstract. It exists because they magically pull it out of nowhere, and because people have faith that it is worth something, even though it came from nothing. In theory they could magically pull it out of nowhere forever, but in practice people lose faith. Then you get hyperinflation or the creditor nations shutting you down...because the money that came from nowhere didn't actually exist all along.
Basically, I guess. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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i think (i have to check), in England, money is based on gold. In theory, you could go into a bank and ask for gold instead of money. Printed on the paper it says something like "i promise to pay the bearer.... So the money isnt money, its a guarantee of payment if you ever wanted to cash it in.
Its a little abstract but i suppose its worth something, whereas in the US, its kind of just printed proof of a debt.
Alot of people have predicted, that in the not too distant future, the American system will reach a point where it cant afford to make the debt repayments anymore and the system will crash. Probably taking the international market with it.
I hope i don't live to see that happen  |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Or they could just cut the trillions of dollars in aid to foreign countries AND tax the churches, then we'd be in the black pretty quick. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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or cut the military adventurism ... save 1 trillion per year.
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
or cut the military adventurism ... save 1 trillion per year.
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Just think what all that money could buy...
Education for all
Food for the poor
medical coverage
infrastructure
Social Security |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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^^Or they could reduce taxes!
They should lower the tax rate and get rid of all deductions and exemptions (including mortgage interest - what a scam for people with huge mortgages). I don't like the government social engineering with deductions. Also it's the rich that benefit most from them.
In my dream, they'd eliminate income tax and just go with a sales tax. |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
^^Or they could reduce taxes!
They should lower the tax rate and get rid of all deductions and exemptions (including mortgage interest - what a scam for people with huge mortgages). I don't like the government social engineering with deductions. Also it's the rich that benefit most from them.
In my dream, they'd eliminate income tax and just go with a sales tax. |
Where do I sign for this? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
Also it's the rich that benefit most from them.
In my dream, they'd eliminate income tax and just go with a sales tax. |
In other words, fund the state almost entirely on the backs of the poor. The wealthy actually "spend" only a tiny fraction of their income, while the poor spend almost all of it, if not all (or even more than all, given many go into debt just to get by). You just got done complaining about how tax deductions primarily benefit the rich, and then you go on to call for a taxation system which would benefit the rich more than any other possible system, excepting perhaps simply exempting the upper classes from taxation outright. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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war is a business, it makes more money than is spent on it (at least or certain parties). Look at Vietnam, ww2 (US part in it), iraq, the war on terror. All US fabrications to spend money, making weapons or using up old munitions.
And taxing people to cover the debt wont work either. Its fundamentally the same issue. Where does the money come from? -the bank.
The bank needs to cancel its debts. Thats how to solve this problem. Maybe killing everyone who owns it would be a good start... |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
i think (i have to check), in England, money is based on gold. In theory, you could go into a bank and ask for gold instead of money. Printed on the paper it says something like "i promise to pay the bearer.... So the money isnt money, its a guarantee of payment if you ever wanted to cash it in.
Its a little abstract but i suppose its worth something, whereas in the US, its kind of just printed proof of a debt.
Alot of people have predicted, that in the not too distant future, the American system will reach a point where it cant afford to make the debt repayments anymore and the system will crash. Probably taking the international market with it.
I hope i don't live to see that happen |
"No country currently uses a gold standard as the basis of its monetary system"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
Also it's the rich that benefit most from them.
In my dream, they'd eliminate income tax and just go with a sales tax. |
In other words, fund the state almost entirely on the backs of the poor. The wealthy actually "spend" only a tiny fraction of their income, while the poor spend almost all of it, if not all (or even more than all, given many go into debt just to get by). You just got done complaining about how tax deductions primarily benefit the rich, and then you go on to call for a taxation system which would benefit the rich more than any other possible system, excepting perhaps simply exempting the upper classes from taxation outright. |
True Fox. I remember when I was visiting Tennessee and I was at Walgreens and my bill had something like 9% sales tax. I said to clerk "wow, you guys have a really high sales tax" she said to me real republican proud "well we don't have an income tax" and I thought to myself she works at Walgreens how much income tax would she have to pay, very little to nothing. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
i think (i have to check), in England, money is based on gold. In theory, you could go into a bank and ask for gold instead of money. Printed on the paper it says something like "i promise to pay the bearer.... So the money isnt money, its a guarantee of payment if you ever wanted to cash it in.
Its a little abstract but i suppose its worth something, whereas in the US, its kind of just printed proof of a debt.
Alot of people have predicted, that in the not too distant future, the American system will reach a point where it cant afford to make the debt repayments anymore and the system will crash. Probably taking the international market with it.
I hope i don't live to see that happen |
"No country currently uses a gold standard as the basis of its monetary system"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard |
maybe ive misinterpreted what that link says ;
In 1844, the Bank Charter Act established that Bank of England notes were fully backed by gold and they became the legal standard. According to the strict interpretation of the gold standard, this 1844 act marks the establishment of a full gold standard for British money.
it seems that the uk does?
edit at/that |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| No_hite_pls wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
Also it's the rich that benefit most from them.
In my dream, they'd eliminate income tax and just go with a sales tax. |
In other words, fund the state almost entirely on the backs of the poor. The wealthy actually "spend" only a tiny fraction of their income, while the poor spend almost all of it, if not all (or even more than all, given many go into debt just to get by). You just got done complaining about how tax deductions primarily benefit the rich, and then you go on to call for a taxation system which would benefit the rich more than any other possible system, excepting perhaps simply exempting the upper classes from taxation outright. |
True Fox. I remember when I was visiting Tennessee and I was at Walgreens and my bill had something like 9% sales tax. I said to clerk "wow, you guys have a really high sales tax" she said to me real republican proud "well we don't have an income tax" and I thought to myself she works at Walgreens how much income tax would she have to pay, very little to nothing. |
Fox is anti-consumption and should make his peace with the sales tax generally on those terms. He's right that all sales tax and no income tax makes for a capitalist dystopia. But sales taxes and VATs can enact prebates in which checks are mailed to individuals once a month depending on their family size to refund them for basic necessity consumption.
Taxing consumption at mid- to high-levels makes more sense than taxation of income at the mid-level, because income is inherently good, unlike consumption. At high levels, the taxation of income becomes inherently good because it reduces the income inequality which allows the rich to capture democracy and turn it towards their ends. |
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