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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Corporal punishment when I was a kid = Tons of bullying in Korea when i was a kid
No corporal punishment in the schools I went to in American = less bullying |
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michaelfehon
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:59 am Post subject: Scandinavian Schools |
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Many people hold up the Scandinavian education systems as a beacon but it is very important to remember their social context. Any comparison between Western, Asian and Scandinavian schools must be made with the understanding of some fundamental differences. These are:
a. From a young age, Scandinavians are brought up to be responsible for their own actions.
b. Scandinavians accept a high tax rate to support their social welfare programmes meaning there are at least two teachers in the classroom.
c. Support is given to struggling students from a young age.
d. Schools are streamed.
I have enjoyed reading this thread and no matter what your opinion on CP is, please be aware of the social context under which different forms of classroom management systems operate. What might work well in one region may not be so good in another. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| dairyairy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Realize, CP did not cure bullying. Beating on someone smaller than you is the hallmark of bullying. |
Corporal punishment is not "bullying"- and is not a "cure all" but taking it away as an option has only done harm to the discipline in classrooms. Corporal punishment benefits those who come to school to learn. It helps to create safer classrooms. |
No, taking it away, and not putting something in it's place, does harm.
| Quote: |
| Captain Corea, you'll probably change your mind on the issue if your child becomes the victim of bullying. There are boys in middle school and high school that don't understand any other punishment. And if you think you'll always be able to reason with the parents of other children, well that's a pipedream, too. |
No.
I'd want him/her out of the school (system) and away from my child. I don't want them beat and then looking to take revenge on my kid for ratting them out.
Again, notice how there was CP AND bullying in Korean schools at the same time?Does that not tell you something? |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:19 am Post subject: |
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How can CP be effectively regulated and implemented? You would need to consider:
-The instrument of delivery. A stick, a shoe, back of the hand? The size and weight of each instrument, plus the material it is constructed from. Would it be better to use plastic, steel or wood?
-The manner of delivery. Vertical or horizontal strokes? How much pressure in each stroke? How many whacks would probably depend on the nature of the 'crime'. Would larger students require a more hefty beating than their smaller counterparts?
Proper guidelines need to be followed when it comes to beating children. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
How can CP be effectively regulated and implemented? You would need to consider:
-The instrument of delivery. A stick, a shoe, back of the hand? The size and weight of each instrument, plus the material it is constructed from. Would it be better to use plastic, steel or wood?
-The manner of delivery. Vertical or horizontal strokes? How much pressure in each stroke? How many whacks would probably depend on the nature of the 'crime'. Would larger students require a more hefty beating than their smaller counterparts?
Proper guidelines need to be followed when it comes to beating children. |
i used to know a skinny little, runt teacher in jangyu. His theory was that its best to beat them on the backs of the legs with a stick or kick them there. He said it was harder for parents to see the bruises. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
How can CP be effectively regulated and implemented? You would need to consider:
-The instrument of delivery. A stick, a shoe, back of the hand? The size and weight of each instrument, plus the material it is constructed from. Would it be better to use plastic, steel or wood?
-The manner of delivery. Vertical or horizontal strokes? How much pressure in each stroke? How many whacks would probably depend on the nature of the 'crime'. Would larger students require a more hefty beating than their smaller counterparts?
Proper guidelines need to be followed when it comes to beating children. |
i used to know a skinny little, runt teacher in jangyu. His theory was that its best to beat them on the backs of the legs with a stick or kick them there. He said it was harder for parents to see the bruises. |
He should have just used the classic phone-book trick favoured by racist 1980s policemen. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Lepaul wrote: |
| or attack me personally again. |
I did not attack you. I suggested that because you support a non-cp system then you are unwittingly encouraging the kind of degeneracy exemplified in the OP.
Neither do I mean to attack you personally now, when I tell you that your obvious ultra-sensitivity and paranoia are probably a hangover from your own "me-generation" childhood.
In all likelihood your parents overindulged you. By never disciplining you they meant to boost your self esteem, but what actually happened is that they pumped you up with a sense of self-importance far exceeding your actual worth.
| Quote: |
Julius, i dont want to sound condescending..
but im guessing from what youve said, that youve been a victim of violence
you may want to find someone to talk to.
maybe teaching isn't the best environment for you to be working in.
You may be a danger to yourself and others |
Delighted, I'm sure.
Your covert aggression -hiding behind your arrogance- is a result of never having been brought into reality during your upbringing. By being afraid to burst your baloon with actual discipline, your parents over-inflated your ego.
You exemplify the kind of passive-agressive, defiant, self-centred little darlings that are produced by the chaotic pansy system you espouse.
| Le-paul wrote: |
| i used to know a skinny little, runt teacher in jangyu. His theory was that its best to beat them on the backs of the legs with a stick or kick them there. He said it was harder for parents to see the bruises. |
Nobody in their right mind condones kicking or hitting people on the back of the legs.
Read my post earlier for a definition of cp that is acceptable and effective.
| CaptainCorea wrote: |
I believe that there is room for CP in the home.
I just don't think it should be used in the schools. |
oh........  I see. You want to be the only one allowed to beat up your own child.
And you take it as a personal attack if those dispassionate responsible professionals dare to try to control their classes.
| michaelfehon wrote: |
| be aware of the social context under which different forms of classroom management systems operate. What might work well in one region may not be so good in another. |
That is the best comment so far.
Disciplinary systems are only a small cog dependent on the wider wheels of society, culture, family and values.
Modern western society has changed in terms of values.
In this era we tend to emphasize the individual and his rights over the community or his responsibilities to others.
Violence is glamorized in the media and wetsren society is filled with violence. Look at the hooligans, soccer fans, bar fights and street crime. The idea of a caring community has broken down in the face of selfish individualism. |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Lepaul wrote: |
| or attack me personally again. |
I did not attack you. I suggested that because you support a non-cp system then you are unwittingly encouraging the kind of degeneracy exemplified in the OP.
Neither do I mean to attack you personally now, when I tell you that your obvious ultra-sensitivity and paranoia are probably a hangover from your own "me-generation" childhood.
In all likelihood your parents overindulged you. By never disciplining you they meant to boost your self esteem, but what actually happened is that they pumped you up with a sense of self-importance far exceeding your actual worth.
| Quote: |
Julius, i dont want to sound condescending..
but im guessing from what youve said, that youve been a victim of violence
you may want to find someone to talk to.
maybe teaching isn't the best environment for you to be working in.
You may be a danger to yourself and others |
Delighted, I'm sure.
Your covert aggression -hiding behind your arrogance- is a result of never having been brought into reality during your upbringing. By being afraid to burst your baloon with actual discipline, your parents over-inflated your ego.
You exemplify the kind of passive-agressive, defiant, self-centred little darlings that are produced by the chaotic pansy system you espouse.
| Le-paul wrote: |
| i used to know a skinny little, runt teacher in jangyu. His theory was that its best to beat them on the backs of the legs with a stick or kick them there. He said it was harder for parents to see the bruises. |
Nobody in their right mind condones kicking or hitting people on the back of the legs.
Read my post earlier for a definition of cp that is acceptable and effective.
| CaptainCorea wrote: |
I believe that there is room for CP in the home.
I just don't think it should be used in the schools. |
oh........ I see. You want to be the only one allowed to beat up your own child.
And you take it as a personal attack if those dispassionate responsible professionals dare to try to control their classes.
| michaelfehon wrote: |
| be aware of the social context under which different forms of classroom management systems operate. What might work well in one region may not be so good in another. |
That is the best comment so far.
Disciplinary systems are only a small cog dependent on the wider wheels of society, culture, family and values.
Modern western society has changed in terms of values.
In this era we tend to emphasize the individual and his rights over the community or his responsibilities to others.
Violence is glamorized in the media and wetsren society is filled with violence. Look at the hooligans, soccer fans, bar fights and street crime. The idea of a caring community has broken down in the face of selfish individualism. |
Wish i could give you a high five for this post. |
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candy bar
Joined: 03 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| 3DR wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| Lepaul wrote: |
| or attack me personally again. |
I did not attack you. I suggested that because you support a non-cp system then you are unwittingly encouraging the kind of degeneracy exemplified in the OP.
Neither do I mean to attack you personally now, when I tell you that your obvious ultra-sensitivity and paranoia are probably a hangover from your own "me-generation" childhood.
In all likelihood your parents overindulged you. By never disciplining you they meant to boost your self esteem, but what actually happened is that they pumped you up with a sense of self-importance far exceeding your actual worth.
| Quote: |
Julius, i dont want to sound condescending..
but im guessing from what youve said, that youve been a victim of violence
you may want to find someone to talk to.
maybe teaching isn't the best environment for you to be working in.
You may be a danger to yourself and others |
Delighted, I'm sure.
Your covert aggression -hiding behind your arrogance- is a result of never having been brought into reality during your upbringing. By being afraid to burst your baloon with actual discipline, your parents over-inflated your ego.
You exemplify the kind of passive-agressive, defiant, self-centred little darlings that are produced by the chaotic pansy system you espouse.
| Le-paul wrote: |
| i used to know a skinny little, runt teacher in jangyu. His theory was that its best to beat them on the backs of the legs with a stick or kick them there. He said it was harder for parents to see the bruises. |
Nobody in their right mind condones kicking or hitting people on the back of the legs.
Read my post earlier for a definition of cp that is acceptable and effective.
| CaptainCorea wrote: |
I believe that there is room for CP in the home.
I just don't think it should be used in the schools. |
oh........ I see. You want to be the only one allowed to beat up your own child.
And you take it as a personal attack if those dispassionate responsible professionals dare to try to control their classes.
| michaelfehon wrote: |
| be aware of the social context under which different forms of classroom management systems operate. What might work well in one region may not be so good in another. |
That is the best comment so far.
Disciplinary systems are only a small cog dependent on the wider wheels of society, culture, family and values.
Modern western society has changed in terms of values.
In this era we tend to emphasize the individual and his rights over the community or his responsibilities to others.
Violence is glamorized in the media and wetsren society is filled with violence. Look at the hooligans, soccer fans, bar fights and street crime. The idea of a caring community has broken down in the face of selfish individualism. |
Wish i could give you a high five for this post. |
me too, digital HIGH FIVE |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| For you and others to liken kids to convicts is extremely telling to me. |
We're not likening kids to convicts or a similar situation. We are saying that if you cram 3000 hormonal adolescents into overcrowded conditions and they are forced to be there, that it starts to take on aspects of that.
Unless you can demonstrate a comparable situation where thousands of people are forcibly crammed together.
I wouldn't say kids would commit robberies, sexual assaults, drug deals, B&Es, vandalism, and so on. I would say that if you cram 3000 teenagers forcibly into a building that you might get some of those results.
| Quote: |
| aptain Corea, you'll probably change your mind on the issue if your child becomes the victim of bullying. |
What will one do if one's child gets bullied and the school is powerless to stop it? Move them to another school where there is just a good a chance that it will continue? Doesn't it involve at some point the kid physically standing up to the bully? Isn't that CP in another form?
| Quote: |
Physical punishment is associated with increased child aggression, antisocial behaviour, lower intellectual achievement, poorer quality of parent–child relationships, mental health problems (such as depression), and diminished moral internalisation. The evidence about whether physical punishment results in short-term compliance is mixed, with some studies showing effectiveness in achieving this and others not.
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All of this is true. I think some pro-CP people think that CP should be a common tool. It should not. It is often ineffective and detrimental. Much like torture.
But that's like saying torture NEVER works. Sorry, sometimes it does. Same with CP. I guess the closest guideline I can come up with is analogous to Clinton's "safe, legal, rare."
Like most difficult and confrontational situations, where people are at risk, you solve things by words if at all possible, by force if necessary.
It is a poor substitute for the myriad options out there in most cases. But just because it is unreliable, dangerous, and ineffective in 95% of cases, does not mean we should rule it out for the other 5%. Keep your options open.
Is anyone willing to claim that CP is NEVER and I mean NEVER effective? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Schools |
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| michaelfehon wrote: |
Many people hold up the Scandinavian education systems as a beacon but it is very important to remember their social context. Any comparison between Western, Asian and Scandinavian schools must be made with the understanding of some fundamental differences. These are:
a. From a young age, Scandinavians are brought up to be responsible for their own actions.
b. Scandinavians accept a high tax rate to support their social welfare programmes meaning there are at least two teachers in the classroom.
c. Support is given to struggling students from a young age.
d. Schools are streamed.
I have enjoyed reading this thread and no matter what your opinion on CP is, please be aware of the social context under which different forms of classroom management systems operate. What might work well in one region may not be so good in another. |
And considering the Nordic countries (being generous with the term 'Scandinavia') have like 25 million people between 5 countries. And Sweden having about 10 million of those 25 million. I'd say population, or lack of it, also has a major factor. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
1. The youngest kids have NEVER been spanked or harshly punished and have no fear of adults or consequences. I've heard plenty of Korean teachers complaining about the kids now and how they have zero discipline and zero respect or fear of adults and they just mouth off all the time, and how that never used to happen, and if it did, they'd have been 2. smacked or told off by the adults.
C.P. may not be perfect, but it puts a solid line in the sand about the rules, and as to who is in charge, and it's CERTAINLY better than letting the 3. inmates run the asylum, which is what is happening now.
4. Yes, we COULD take it out of schools and try to let the parents handle the discipline, but they are mostly negligent too. Most parents here seem to not make the kids do ANYTHING against their wills, including basic household chores, and they are also failing to teach basic manners of conduct. It is similar "back home" with some slight differences.
So we can't really count on the parents, and the 5. teachers now can't do anything either, so it's a double whammy. You have a whole generation of untouchable, princes and princesses running around who have little idea what respect or discipline is, and today's 'modern' parents unleashed them. |
Numbers are mine...
1. How do you know? How do you know what goes on in their homes? Do you have access to surveys about spanking/CP in Korean homes, or are you simply guessing?
2. Yeah, gotta' love that example of CP. Kid mouths off, smack them! 
3. Here's another poster calling students inmates. I'm sorry, but my 6 year old is not an inmate. Not a prisoner. Has committed no crimes, and does not need to be thought of or treated like one.
4. So you believe that teachers such as yourself are better suited/equipped/trained to handle a child's discipline than their parents? That's a new level of audacity.
5. Strawman. Not having CP does not mean that teachers can "do nothing". |
Ah the numbers game:
1. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Actually, there are probably some that still get spanked, but it's not as common as before. The newest generation is being coddled like never before in this country, and that doesn't take a survey to figure out. How do I think I know? Past employment in adult teaching and teacher training for one thing, in which they virtually all say similar things about discipline methods. If they are doing much spanking, they are either not admitting to it, or lying about it.
2. I personally wouldn't do it. But I've seen it happen and it actually worked pretty darn well and was quick too. If I say something rude to someone's face or call them a name, I expect that I may get smacked as well, so why not a kid? Are they on some untouchable level of existence? No, they are people too, who have to learn to mind their manners to a degree, or face repercussions, just as we all do. What's going to happen to them if they DON'T learn this? Probably an a** whooping. It's a cruel world out there.
3. "Letting the inmates run the asylum" is an EXPRESSION of speech. Hopefully you know what it means; I'm pretty sure you do. But it is telling about how you view your child as some untouchable entity. When she's at school, she basically is an "inmate" of the school and is expected to behave according to the school rules. If you aren't comfortable with a school having authority over her, just home school her and you can treat her however you like.
4. The real audacity is believing that because one is a parent, they automatically know what's best for kids. There are plenty of horrible parents out that produce horrible kids with no manners. And what is the minimum requirement for being a parent? The ability to ejaculate. Impressive! Are they paying some dues by being parents? For sure! Are they automatic experts who do everything right? No. So the appeal to "authority" here is not only fallacious, but very weak at its core considering the quality of many parents out there.
5. It might be more accurate to say they DON'T do anything, or at least don't do much. They haven't really figured out what to do now that CP is gone. They do have their hands tied behind their backs to a large degree though. And with the power tripping parents butting in with the mentality that their child can do no wrong, there actually are many cases where teachers CAN'T do anything. The kids know this, and so as I said, it leads to a situation where effectively the "inmates are running the asylum". |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Scandinavian Schools |
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| michaelfehon wrote: |
Many people hold up the Scandinavian education systems as a beacon but it is very important to remember their social context. Any comparison between Western, Asian and Scandinavian schools must be made with the understanding of some fundamental differences. These are:
a. From a young age, Scandinavians are brought up to be responsible for their own actions.
b. Scandinavians accept a high tax rate to support their social welfare programmes meaning there are at least two teachers in the classroom.
c. Support is given to struggling students from a young age.
d. Schools are streamed.
I have enjoyed reading this thread and no matter what your opinion on CP is, please be aware of the social context under which different forms of classroom management systems operate. What might work well in one region may not be so good in another. |
Good points!
I have spent time in Iceland and also have some Scandinavian family and friends and some major differences seem to be that they are comparatively tough on kids from a young age, and they start treating them almost like adults and expecting adult-like manners from very early on. They learn to be responsible and well mannered quite early.
That's VERY different from the Korean way, where they are coddled and babied and rarely told to do anything, except for study.
Not saying one way is necessarily better than another, but I do know which kids seem generally more quiet, controlled and pleasant to be around: the Scandinavians! Although the Koreans win (just barely) in terms of cuteness, they lose mega points for the screaming and lack of control.
As for C.P. the families we knew used it a little bit very early on, even on their blonde princesses. But as they pretty much taught the kids adult manners so early, it seemed to become virtually unnecessary. But the kids knew who was in charge and weren't that spoiled, so that probably factored in as well. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
.
| CaptainCorea wrote: |
I believe that there is room for CP in the home.
I just don't think it should be used in the schools. |
oh........ I see. You want to be the only one allowed to beat up your own child.
And you take it as a personal attack if those dispassionate responsible professionals dare to try to control their classes. |
One, if teachers are unable to control their classes without CP, that's their weakness. There are many methods to controlling a class and students, and many other ways to give out punishments. Your "all or nothing" schtick is getting lame.
And as for physical discipline - yes, I believe it is the sole domain of the family. Just like I do not believe public schools should teach prayer - certain things are for the families to decide on.
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
1. The youngest kids have NEVER been spanked or harshly punished and have no fear of adults or consequences. I've heard plenty of Korean teachers complaining about the kids now and how they have zero discipline and zero respect or fear of adults and they just mouth off all the time, and how that never used to happen, and if it did, they'd have been 2. smacked or told off by the adults.
C.P. may not be perfect, but it puts a solid line in the sand about the rules, and as to who is in charge, and it's CERTAINLY better than letting the 3. inmates run the asylum, which is what is happening now.
4. Yes, we COULD take it out of schools and try to let the parents handle the discipline, but they are mostly negligent too. Most parents here seem to not make the kids do ANYTHING against their wills, including basic household chores, and they are also failing to teach basic manners of conduct. It is similar "back home" with some slight differences.
So we can't really count on the parents, and the 5. teachers now can't do anything either, so it's a double whammy. You have a whole generation of untouchable, princes and princesses running around who have little idea what respect or discipline is, and today's 'modern' parents unleashed them. |
Numbers are mine...
1. How do you know? How do you know what goes on in their homes? Do you have access to surveys about spanking/CP in Korean homes, or are you simply guessing?
2. Yeah, gotta' love that example of CP. Kid mouths off, smack them!
3. Here's another poster calling students inmates. I'm sorry, but my 6 year old is not an inmate. Not a prisoner. Has committed no crimes, and does not need to be thought of or treated like one.
4. So you believe that teachers such as yourself are better suited/equipped/trained to handle a child's discipline than their parents? That's a new level of audacity.
5. Strawman. Not having CP does not mean that teachers can "do nothing". |
Ah the numbers game:
1. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Actually, there are probably some that still get spanked, but it's not as common as before. The newest generation is being coddled like never before in this country, and that doesn't take a survey to figure out. How do I think I know? Past employment in adult teaching and teacher training for one thing, in which they virtually all say similar things about discipline methods. If they are doing much spanking, they are either not admitting to it, or lying about it.
2. I personally wouldn't do it. But I've seen it happen and it actually worked pretty darn well and was quick too. If I say something rude to someone's face or call them a name, I expect that I may get smacked as well, so why not a kid? Are they on some untouchable level of existence? No, they are people too, who have to learn to mind their manners to a degree, or face repercussions, just as we all do. What's going to happen to them if they DON'T learn this? Probably an a** whooping. It's a cruel world out there.
3. "Letting the inmates run the asylum" is an EXPRESSION of speech. Hopefully you know what it means; I'm pretty sure you do. But it is telling about how you view your child as some untouchable entity. When she's at school, she basically is an "inmate" of the school and is expected to behave according to the school rules. If you aren't comfortable with a school having authority over her, just home school her and you can treat her however you like.
4. The real audacity is believing that because one is a parent, they automatically know what's best for kids. There are plenty of horrible parents out that produce horrible kids with no manners. And what is the minimum requirement for being a parent? The ability to ejaculate. Impressive! Are they paying some dues by being parents? For sure! Are they automatic experts who do everything right? No. So the appeal to "authority" here is not only fallacious, but very weak at its core considering the quality of many parents out there.
5. It might be more accurate to say they DON'T do anything, or at least don't do much. They haven't really figured out what to do now that CP is gone. They do have their hands tied behind their backs to a large degree though. And with the power tripping parents butting in with the mentality that their child can do no wrong, there actually are many cases where teachers CAN'T do anything. The kids know this, and so as I said, it leads to a situation where effectively the "inmates are running the asylum". |
1. Wow, that was a quick back away. From NEVER being spanked, to some. All without one shred of proof. Got cha!
2. So smacking someone is cool by you? Got it. You do know it's against the law though, right?
3. No, you can see how that expression is backed by a mentality. One shared by others in this thread - and often repeated. You yourself here call them "inmates". They are NOT. They are students. I hope to frak you know the difference.
4. Here we differ greatly. While we both know that there are good and bad in both educators and parents, I believe that the responsibility of raising a child lies with the parents/family. As for your assessment of what it takes to be a parent, that might change when you actually are one. You know nothing, Mix1.
5. If they do nothing, then that's on them. If they cannot do anything, then it is on the system. Teachers and schools should have numerous tools in place for both incentives and discipline. They should also be trained and comfortable with using them.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| For you and others to liken kids to convicts is extremely telling to me. |
We're not likening kids to convicts or a similar situation. We are saying that if you cram 3000 hormonal adolescents into overcrowded conditions and they are forced to be there, that it starts to take on aspects of that.
Unless you can demonstrate a comparable situation where thousands of people are forcibly crammed together.
I wouldn't say kids would commit robberies, sexual assaults, drug deals, B&Es, vandalism, and so on. I would say that if you cram 3000 teenagers forcibly into a building that you might get some of those results. |
And here we go. Comparing schools to prisons.
They are not the same. Not even close. They should not be approached the same way. |
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