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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Just like a heroin addict you might have to start borrowing from friends and family to support your habit, graduating to petty theft and then burglary, maybe selling your body on the street or, if you're lucky, becoming a dealer of smuggled Lucky Strikes to pay for just a few cartons of your own.
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Actually most of the evidence, in the UK anyway, shows that heroin addiction does not lead to crime but if anything crime leads to heroin addiction. IE the vast majority of heroin addicts were already commiting crimes before they became drug addicts. Smoking is also much more prevalent among the criminal classes but I don't think anyone has tried to construct a theory that smoking leads to crime. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| arguing against what research has shown best works to decrease smoking--higher taxes and smoking bans. |
Actually, research has not shown that those are the best ways to decrease smoking. It has shown that those are one way to decrease smoking.
You can't even interpret data correctly.
| Quote: |
| You then go on to say higher taxes will create a crime wave of major proportions, not true, |
http://www.pewstates.org/projects/stateline/headlines/cigarette-smuggling-cuts-states-per-pack-tax-revenues-85899480180
http://www.dw.de/billions-lost-to-cigarette-smuggling/a-16860124
According to this, cigarette smuggling led to 1.8 billion in lost revenue tax revenue for New York.
EU member states are losing 10 billion in revenue a year.
Sorry, that's not small potatoes.
| Quote: |
| I'll let you in on a little secret--organized crime already exists. Smuggling of all types of goods already exists. |
Yes, its not like enacting and then repealing Prohibition had any effect on the mob back in the 20s.
And should we be spending our scarce police resources on tracking down cigarettes smugglers? How about rapists and murderers? Police resources are limited, it IS a zero sum game.
| Quote: |
| You then posit, again and again, that states and municipalities are completely dependent on tax revenues from cigarettes, helpless without them, obviously false, and that if those revenues decrease they will suffer "MAJOR" problems, again obviously false. |
http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x871008862/-1-per-pack-cigarette-tax-hike-falling-short-of-projections?zc_p=0#axzz2XHRaTk6m
Most states are already in debt, many badly so. Now, high tax states are having to transfer money from their general fund, away from other programs to make up for shortfalls as a result of the shortsighted tax policy.
Illinois experienced a revenue shortfall of over 100 million dollars.
| Quote: |
| Here's just one snapshot for you--improving economy, greater sales tax revenues, higher home prices, higher property taxes, etc. And of course it's just as easy as raising the sales tax a quarter penny or so. Such an intractable problem--NOT. |
Yeah, our state governments our in such great shape now budget wise. I don't know why they don't just start taxing everything at higher rates to make up the shortfall! 
It can't possibly be because of policy decisions like budgeting and spending money on programs that were expected to be funded by certain revenue sources that didn't pan out.
| Quote: |
| But if it's as hard to quit smoking as you make it out to be, basically saying it's impossible without some type of super expensive medical treatment that we should all be paying for |
http://www.walgreens.com/q/nicorette-gum
A box of Nicorette gum costs 64 dollars. I think THAT is a far bigger reason for things. If you want to reduce smoking, make cessation options more affordable.
| Quote: |
| basically saying it's impossible without some type of super expensive medical treatment that we should all be paying for, although the facts belie your statements (surprise, surprise) |
Who said super-expensive? It IS expensive though, especially from the perspective of poor people, who have the highest rates of smoking.
Are you claiming that smoking cessation aids are worthless? Are you saying that patients in studies who used Zyban or Nicorette or Nicoderm experienced the same rate of smoking relapse as people who quit on will-power alone?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_cessation
http://www.cancer.org/healthy/stayawayfromtobacco/guidetoquittingsmoking/guide-to-quitting-smoking-success-rates
AND YOU'RE CALLING MY CLAIMS BASELESS AND UNVERIFIED?
| Quote: |
| Just like a heroin addict you might have to start borrowing from friends and family to support your habit, graduating to petty theft and then burglary |
Yes, its called "bumming smokes", then its called "skimming the register for a pack of smokes", then its called "Why the tobacco store has an iron gate but the dry cleaners next door has a simple lock".
| Quote: |
| maybe selling your body on the street |
In addition to doing drugs, most drug addicts also smoke and use some of their prostitution money on smokes. You do realize that a cigarette is about as much a part of a hooker's uniform as stripper heels, right?
| Quote: |
| I, and others, have given evidence again and again, as have others, that contradicts your EVERY statement. Yet you persist, for example, in comparing smoking to having a heroin addiction. |
Yeah, those doctors and scientists who do the same thing are real idiots just like me.
You on the other hand have so far advocated-
That anti-smoking medicine is no more effective than willpower.
That a solution to budget shortfalls is to just raise taxes.
That billions of dollars in emerging smuggling is not a crime wave.
That taxes and indoor smoking bans are the best way to reduce smoking and make people quit smoking.
That states aren't experiencing drastic budget shortfall programs because of tobacco taxes.
Do you not see any potential flaws or inaccuracies with your claims above? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| arguing against what research has shown best works to decrease smoking--higher taxes and smoking bans. |
Actually, research has not shown that those are the best ways to decrease smoking. It has shown that those are one way to decrease smoking.
You can't even interpret data correctly.
| Quote: |
| You then go on to say higher taxes will create a crime wave of major proportions, not true, |
http://www.pewstates.org/projects/stateline/headlines/cigarette-smuggling-cuts-states-per-pack-tax-revenues-85899480180
http://www.dw.de/billions-lost-to-cigarette-smuggling/a-16860124
According to this, cigarette smuggling led to 1.8 billion in lost revenue tax revenue for New York.
EU member states are losing 10 billion in revenue a year.
Sorry, that's not small potatoes.
| Quote: |
| I'll let you in on a little secret--organized crime already exists. Smuggling of all types of goods already exists. |
Yes, its not like enacting and then repealing Prohibition had any effect on the mob back in the 20s.
And should we be spending our scarce police resources on tracking down cigarettes smugglers? How about rapists and murderers? Police resources are limited, it IS a zero sum game.
| Quote: |
| You then posit, again and again, that states and municipalities are completely dependent on tax revenues from cigarettes, helpless without them, obviously false, and that if those revenues decrease they will suffer "MAJOR" problems, again obviously false. |
http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x871008862/-1-per-pack-cigarette-tax-hike-falling-short-of-projections?zc_p=0#axzz2XHRaTk6m
Most states are already in debt, many badly so. Now, high tax states are having to transfer money from their general fund, away from other programs to make up for shortfalls as a result of the shortsighted tax policy.
Illinois experienced a revenue shortfall of over 100 million dollars.
| Quote: |
| Here's just one snapshot for you--improving economy, greater sales tax revenues, higher home prices, higher property taxes, etc. And of course it's just as easy as raising the sales tax a quarter penny or so. Such an intractable problem--NOT. |
Yeah, our state governments our in such great shape now budget wise. I don't know why they don't just start taxing everything at higher rates to make up the shortfall!
It can't possibly be because of policy decisions like budgeting and spending money on programs that were expected to be funded by certain revenue sources that didn't pan out.
| Quote: |
| But if it's as hard to quit smoking as you make it out to be, basically saying it's impossible without some type of super expensive medical treatment that we should all be paying for |
http://www.walgreens.com/q/nicorette-gum
A box of Nicorette gum costs 64 dollars. I think THAT is a far bigger reason for things. If you want to reduce smoking, make cessation options more affordable.
| Quote: |
| basically saying it's impossible without some type of super expensive medical treatment that we should all be paying for, although the facts belie your statements (surprise, surprise) |
Who said super-expensive? It IS expensive though, especially from the perspective of poor people, who have the highest rates of smoking.
Are you claiming that smoking cessation aids are worthless? Are you saying that patients in studies who used Zyban or Nicorette or Nicoderm experienced the same rate of smoking relapse as people who quit on will-power alone?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_cessation
http://www.cancer.org/healthy/stayawayfromtobacco/guidetoquittingsmoking/guide-to-quitting-smoking-success-rates
AND YOU'RE CALLING MY CLAIMS BASELESS AND UNVERIFIED?
| Quote: |
| Just like a heroin addict you might have to start borrowing from friends and family to support your habit, graduating to petty theft and then burglary |
Yes, its called "bumming smokes", then its called "skimming the register for a pack of smokes", then its called "Why the tobacco store has an iron gate but the dry cleaners next door has a simple lock".
| Quote: |
| maybe selling your body on the street |
In addition to doing drugs, most drug addicts also smoke and use some of their prostitution money on smokes. You do realize that a cigarette is about as much a part of a hooker's uniform as stripper heels, right?
| Quote: |
| I, and others, have given evidence again and again, as have others, that contradicts your EVERY statement. Yet you persist, for example, in comparing smoking to having a heroin addiction. |
Yeah, those doctors and scientists who do the same thing are real idiots just like me.
You on the other hand have so far advocated-
That anti-smoking medicine is no more effective than willpower.
That a solution to budget shortfalls is to just raise taxes.
That billions of dollars in emerging smuggling is not a crime wave.
That taxes and indoor smoking bans are the best way to reduce smoking and make people quit smoking.
That states aren't experiencing drastic budget shortfall programs because of tobacco taxes.
Do you not see any potential flaws or inaccuracies with your claims above? |
(My response somehow disappeared. Here's a rehash.)
None.
First, as the governor of Minnesota says in the article you linked to, these taxes are first and foremost about the heath of citizens, in this case, Minnesota. Such taxes are sold by politicians as a free lunch, which of course doesn't exist. But they are about getting people to stop smoking and at that they are highly effective.
(And people don't really mind taxes being raised on smokers because they know the risks involved for smokers and for others due to secondhand smoke, so they don't mind at all taxing such negative behavior.)
Can they find another way to fund the Vikings new stadium? You bet your bippy. Of course they might look at all the hubbub in Brazil before spending taxpayers' money on sports stadiums.
As for the organization claiming to know how much NY state loses to cigarette smuggling, it's a far right anti-tax "think tank." I'll think again before accepting their numbers. In the meantime, NY state cigarette tax revenue continue to increase, even when losing $150 million a year to online cigarette sales. They're looking to tighten that loophole as they increase penalties against smugglers. My bet is that their tax revenues will continue to increase.
And who are the majority of these smugglers? Just ordinary citizens who have elected to drive across state lines to buy cheaper cigarettes. Smart shoppers if you will. So NY's loss is Pennsylvania's and New Jersey's gain. But how about those gas taxes NY's collecting?
As for the EU smuggling, the article gave no authority for its numbers. Might their, whoever they are, estimates be inflated? No matter, since this is a case of different countries with different economies having different tax policies on all sorts of goods. Cigarettes are easy to smuggle and the smugglers appear to be getting assistance from a few of the cigarette manufacturers. This is not the result of taxes on cigarettes being increased for decreasing smokers' smoking.
None of your other points hit home either. You continue to make a hue and cry about tax shortfalls, trying to blame it all on decreased cigarette sales, when of course it's mostly due to the great recession, and refusing to acknowledge that this is not an either-or proposition, that there are alternative methods of raising tax revenues, just as in the example I gave earlier regarding electric cars and decreased gas tax revenues.
But that's all beside the point, a smoke screen you've put down. (Did you used to work concerts for heavy metal bands? You're a great smoke man.) The purpose of increasing taxes on cigarettes and expanding bans on smoking is to decrease smokers, and at this they have been and will continue to be very effective. |
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