Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - Asiana Flight Crashes

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Asiana Flight Crashes - San Francisco Airport
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 12, 13, 14 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

nicwr2002

Joined: 17 Aug 2011

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:52 am Post subject:

Don't get all worked up about that news comment. Channel A is considered a low level station. No matter how you translate it, it's still shows no compassion and racial hatred.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:02 am Post subject:

nicwr2002 wrote:

Don't get all worked up about that news comment. Channel A is considered a low level station. No matter how you translate it, it's still shows no compassion and racial hatred.

No more than "2 Americans, 44 others killed in bombing" headlines that pop up.

Heck the Daily Show book had the US media equivalency calculator that went something like

5000 Slaughtered Tanzinians=1000 drowned Bangladeshis=120 car bombed Iraqis=15 burned Europeans=1 Snipered American.

And within America...5 gunned down black kids=1 missing white woman. Or worse...

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:35 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

Pilot was in training

Quote:

(Reuters) - Asiana Airlines Inc said the pilot in charge of landing the Boeing 777 that crash-landed at San Francisco's airport on Saturday was training for the long-range plane and that it was his first flight to the airport with the jet.

Which means:

“Ultimately, it’s the trainer pilot who is responsible for the flight,” Mr. Yoon, the Asiana president, said, referring to Lee Jeong-min, 49, the more experienced pilot who sat in the co-pilot’s seat when Lee Kang-guk was landing the plane. He had 3,220 hours of flying time with 777s.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/09/world/asia/asiana-airlines-san-francisco-plane-crash.html?hp

Also, from the same article, something probably everyone on Dave's can attest to.:

.....South Korea has tightened safety regulations and pilot qualification requirements, as well as improving pilot training. It also has struggled to address long-running skepticism over its cockpit culture.

With most pilots recruited from the air force, strict hierarchy ruled among South Korean pilots, so much so that investigators and critics at the time said that co-pilots were not able to challenge the pilots even when there was an obvious mistake.

optik404

Joined: 24 Jun 2008

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:41 am Post subject:

That's really unfortunate if one of the victims got hit by a rescue vehicle. Surviving a plane crash just to get run over is just tragic.

tophatcat

Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:47 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

nicwr2002 wrote:

Don't get all worked up about that news comment. Channel A is considered a low level station. No matter how you translate it, it's still shows no compassion and racial hatred.

But they weren't discussing America.

You always jump in with an apologist comment.

Nester Noodlemon

Joined: 16 Jan 2009

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:54 am Post subject:

tophatcat wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

nicwr2002 wrote:

Don't get all worked up about that news comment. Channel A is considered a low level station. No matter how you translate it, it's still shows no compassion and racial hatred.

But they weren't discussing America.

You always jump in with an apologist comment.

Everyone knows that if someone makes a post about dropping a coin into a sidewalk crack in Korea that ____________ will soon be commenting about an earthquake in California. It's just what he does.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:23 am Post subject:

Looking more and more like pilot error. It is still amazing only 2 people died anyway.

GEOM

Joined: 04 Dec 2005

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:51 am Post subject:

hogwonguy1979 wrote:

typical korean bs not blaming the pilot:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/07/119_138839.html

they pulled an article saying the 777 had a history of mechanical problems

ugghhh

Of course the Korean governmen wouldn't point out pilot error was the cause of the accident. They are the ones who go around jailing people for pointing out Korean flight crews are incompetent and unfit for flying planes.

And I am NOT exaggerating.

http://blog.daum.net/_blog/BlogTypeView.do?blogid=0Qcye&articleno=9&categoryId=0&regdt=20091209112119#ajax_history_home

Quote:

“Korea’s major companies bribe prosecutors and judges to use the law in their own wa...
y. In return, those so-called “government officials” will be invited over to the companies after retirement.

Bribed judges ignore crimes committed by the companies, or minimize the debt they owe to society. However, they arrest and critically judge the innocent and the weak. They are baseless simpletons who are as dangerous as drunken drivers and thieves with knives in their hands.

My name is Chae Moon Lee, an ex-pilot of Korean Airlines. I have flown for over 30 years. During my career, I was arrested for accusing Korean Airlines’ illegality. So I came to Canada as a refugee and have been receiving protection and welfare (approximately $600/month) since then.”

"There is proof of Korean airlines and the government of Korea ’s violations : They let helicopter pilots control airplanes without airplanes’ licenses before 1993.(As a matter of fact, they let them control airplanes until 1999, and there are in about 200 people.) They let flight engineers control airplanes after working five years as a flight engineer.They have been executing practical flight tests with simulators and oral tests since on Oct. 14 1982.(The enforcement regulations of the aviation law of Korea- Section 55-2) They let them perform : The flight experience by means of the flight simulator designated by the Minister of Construction and Transportation shall be regarded as the airplane flight experience prescribed in section 29 subsection 2 – since on Feb. 5 1999.
Instrument rating tests have been executed with oral tests and written tests only.
Airline transport pilot licenses also have been executed by written tests without practical flight tests. They have never had twin -engined airplanes to check practical flight tests.
These were verified by Korean air Navigation Commissioner, Woo-jong Lee, because he concealed the documents which I sent. He hid the documents after receiving Korean airlines’ instigation, and was bribed from Korean airlines after retirement.He acknowledged violations of Korea at his office on Aug. 13 2007, and told me “How can we keep the expensive airplanes to check practical flight tests for only a few people who want to get licenses.” And he said “If ICAO knows that, Korea will be demoted to the 2nd grade aviation country, therefore I am obliged to deny.”"

And btw everyone should take a good read through this:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/481375-sooo-you-want-fly-korean-airlines-do-you-3.html

Quote:

1. None of the line crews I flew with understood what they were doing. At a recurrent ground school a local LCP admitted he had no clue either, and when I explained the correct procedures to he and two local FO's told me that I did not understand the concept of all weather operations (I must have been wrong for the past 18 years). Recurrent tests and exams are always accompanied by a set of answers, so there is no attempt to improve knowledge or standards, just to make sure everyone passes and the operation continues. My radio licence test consisted of attending a classroom to watch the movie "Flightplan" (with Jodie Foster) and an 80's movie about a couple of guys ferrying Pawnees across the Pacific. Attendance was mandatory. Bored out of my skull, I slept through the second movie. My Radio Licence turned up a few weeks later.

2. Their knowledge of the aircraft is appalling and their idea of competence is to be able to quote procedures parrot fashion without understanding what they are doing, or even if it is appropriate to the situation. Everything is a competition and comes down to who is right, rather than what is right. My LIP (who had an extremely poor command of English) gave me bad grades because I followed SOP rather than follow his unsafe, non-standard, "time saving" techniques. When I queried this he threw my training folder at me and fed me a bullshit line about how the chief pilot told him he could do it the SOP way or his own way. He struggled on the radio on most of our training sectors and did not exhibit a single trait that would have made him an instructor in any other airline. Another expat pilot told me he had the same instructor when he joined and experienced similar problems.

3. A friend of mine spent two years there on a 744 command contract. He mentioned there were some 'testing' moments. For example, when he emerged from the bunk on cessation of his scheduled rest to find he was alone on the flight deck! After that incident, he always took his rest in the seat.

4. Crews refuse to de-ice their aircraft because they consider it macho to take off with an ice covered aeroplane. I have had debates with Korean captains on more than one occasion about the state of the aircraft, and have been challenged by ground engineers for recommending to the operating captain that we remove the ice and snow that was evident on the aircraft.

5. I have operated flights where, for 10 hours, the Korean first officer refuses to speak to me because he doesn't like foreigners. This is after I have introduced myself and done everything possible to be extremely polite and accommodating. I have spent almost 4 hours in the cockpit without any contact from the cabin. The cabin crew close all the window shades immediately after takeoff regardless of what time of day it is, so if the cockpit crew were asleep, dead or whatever and the aircraft was intercepted, nobody would know.

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:58 am Post subject:

optik404 wrote:

That's really unfortunate if one of the victims got hit by a rescue vehicle. Surviving a plane crash just to get run over is just tragic.

Unfortunate to say the least, and bizarre.

Another, somewhat related thing that I found a little bizarre, happened during one of the very first "official" press conferences that were held. Now admittedly, the situation was still fluid at that point, and everyone was trying to be careful with any details they gave out. So at first I did not find anything unusual about San Francisco Fire Chief Joanne Hayes-White's assessment, which basically covered responders, injuries, and area hospitals being utilized. It was obvious that she was finished with her comments, and was not going to add anything more, until a reporter asked if their were any fatalities. Hayes-White was like, oh yeah, 2 dead, 60 unaccounted for.

What??? You didn't think those were details that should be shared in your initial comments?

(On another side note it was amusing to watch CNN's Wolf Blitzer freaking out about the 60 unaccounted for number, which of course turned out to be wrong.)

A far cry from the professionalism of National Transportation Safety Board chief Deborah Hersman, I thought, so for kicks I googled Hayes-White's name to see if there had been any other criticisms of her.

No criticism about her job performance, but last year a judge declared her "deadbeat divorcee and ordered the city to start garnisheeing $3,300 a month from her paycheck for spousal support to her ex-husband."

Yeah, I know that one thing has nothing to do with the other. I just found it interesting, that's all.

augustine

Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:46 am Post subject:

Don't know if this has been mentioned. But, has anyone ever read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell? I believe he was talking about Korean Air.

Quote:

Gladwell’s account of why a Korean airline had a series of horrendous crashes and how it overcame them is the longest in the book. It seems in Korean culture it wouldn’t do to interrupt a superior, and Korean pilots had to be taught to do this to prevent the captain from ignoring a danger that was obvious to an underling. The incentive to change was enormous: the airline would have failed if it hadn’t better managed to prevent disastrous accidents.

http://educationnext.org/nature-or-culture/

Relevant? Possibly.

Honestly, yes, it's unfortunate that people were injured and two died but plane crashes are so extremely rare, that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really make an impact on me. I'm much more interested in this girl(s?) who somehow fell out of the airplane (how? where on the plane?) then got run over by a vehicle. That's so bizarre. And you know there's video footage of it somewhere, assuming it happened.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:33 am Post subject:

An interesting article in the Atlantic

Apparently SFO's ATC has quite a rep- and not a good one. Not to excuse the pilots, but ATC might have played a role in the crash.

Quote:

SFO and their notorious ATC instructed 'slam dunk' visual approaches [in which the planes are kept high, then ordered to descend quickly before landing] from downwind have resulted in so many incidents at our airline that it is a regular item in recurent simulator training.

Quote:

Well said - I couldn't agree more.

I would agree that as a professional pilot we should of course be more than capable of rising to the challenge of such an ATC imposed "slam dunk" approach - however please consider these factors that could all conspire to affect pilot performance

>a long 10 to 12 hour flight

>middle of the night body clock time

>to an airport that you may be not so familiar with (long haul pilot roster - you may only visit the destination once in two or three years)

>a slam dunk procedure that would be a challenge at the best of times (I bet even the short-haul/ domestic colleagues get it "not quite right" on occasions.

For what it's worth - I am of the opinion that slam dunk approaches for "Heavy" jets like the B777 these have no place at a major international airports.

In a "heavy" jet it's always (in my experience) a challenge to "get down & slow down" and become stabilised on this particular approach at SFO - something that sometimes ATC fail to appreciate.

Throw into the mix this runway allegedly not having any functioning ILS or even visual vertical reference guidance system - then it all adds to the possibility of "an accident waiting to happen."

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:51 am Post subject:

augustine wrote:

Don't know if this has been mentioned. But, has anyone ever read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell? I believe he was talking about Korean Air.

Quote:

I believe I covered that subject matter in thread reply Number 62(seven before yours) Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:35 am, pursuant to FORUM GUIDELINES - READ FIRST! (Updated 2004-08-07)

Joking aside, that is interesting that Gladwell would use that in his book.

One of the aviation experts on CNN openly questioned why no one else in the crew questioned the approach earlier.

Still speculation though. Something may be discovered that completely absolves the pilot and crew of any responsibility.

andrewchon

Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:34 pm Post subject:

lithium wrote:

T-J wrote:

andrewchon wrote:

I know, they should do the American thing and blame Obama instead. Laughing

You must not be American. Everyone knows that Bush is still to blame.

You are correct. Obama has been in office and has yet to govern.

How about doing the 'other' American thing and say that it's God's punishment for letting Gays into the military? Laughing

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject:

Nester Noodlemon wrote:

tophatcat wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

nicwr2002 wrote:

Don't get all worked up about that news comment. Channel A is considered a low level station. No matter how you translate it, it's still shows no compassion and racial hatred.

But they weren't discussing America.

You always jump in with an apologist comment.

Everyone knows that if someone makes a post about dropping a coin into a sidewalk crack in Korea that ____________ will soon be commenting about an earthquake in California. It's just what he does.

The point is, whatever enables one not to froth and foam when they see that everytime they read/watch the news back home should enable them to have the same reaction here. If you can't maintain the same level of dispassion, you will end up making hasty and faulty judgments.

==========================================

Quote:

Don't know if this has been mentioned. But, has anyone ever read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell? I believe he was talking about Korean Air.

In this case, I'm not sure it applies or perhaps the training that stopped that culture too well.

From the NY Times article-

Quote:

He was still on a "familiarization flight" program when he was at the controls Saturday; a senior colleague with more experience landing 777s, including at San Francisco, sat beside him as co-pilot.

Choi Jong-ho, a senior aviation policy official with South Korea’s Transportation Ministry, said Monday that South Korean investigators had arrived in San Francisco and interviewed the four pilots on Flight 214, who worked two-man shifts during the flight. He refused to speculate about whether the cockpit decision to let Mr. Lee, instead of one of his more experienced colleagues, land the plane had contributed to the accident

Apparently he was the most junior member of the crew, and so it should have been easy to use seniority on him.

Perhaps the crew was conscious of this and wanted to "give him his chance" and not assert seniority and ended up hesitating.

edwardcatflap

Joined: 22 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:30 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The key difference is the guy expressed a positive emotion (relief, luck etc..) at the fact that Koreans weren't killed. it may be implied in the headlines you mentioned but it wasn't stated.

What I find interesting is the psychology that makes two dead in a big plane
much more newsworthy than 10 in a small plane. You can say that we all travel by big plane more often but then we travel by car more often and in a lot of countries two people dead is a daily occurrence in car crashes.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 12, 13, 14 Next
Page 5 of 14

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe