|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:20 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| I thought it was a crap advert. The thing that irked me about it wasn't so much the big nose and stupid "delicious! wonderful! amazing!" thing, but just that I'm not sure what a Toshiba rice cooker has to do with blonde haired women with big noses. It just seemed pointless and gratuitous. If it were an American brand rice cooker, or the product had some other obvious handle that made such women poignant, then sure, I could see that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Died By Bear wrote: |
| I think it's great that other countries don't buy in to the American way of political correctness. Can't say this, can't say that, oh we don't want to offend anyone by saying the wrong thing. |
Agreed. If Americans want to act out their little cultural neurosis within the boundaries of their own nation, okay, that's ultimately up to them, but demanding the entire rest of the world join them in the neurosis is completely unreasonable. It's good and healthy that the Japanese people are able to casually joke like this without freaking out. |
Nobody is demanding the Pacific Fleet be mobilized here. It's just classless humor. Nothing wrong with calling the advertisers out on it and maybe avoiding their products if possible. It happens in the USA too, it happens all over the world. Then there are people like you who think it's not only ok, but it's also healthy behavior. It's ignorant and honestly I find it a little scary that an advertising department somehow came to the conclusion that using racism would appeal to the general Japanese population. I don't know, I'm not going to do anything about it but I definitely won't be applauding it like you are here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Nobody is demanding the Pacific Fleet be mobilized here. It's just classless humor. Nothing wrong with calling the advertisers out on it and maybe avoiding their products if possible. It happens in the USA too, it happens all over the world. Then there are people like you who think it's not only ok, but it's also healthy behavior. It's ignorant and honestly I find it a little scary that an advertising department somehow came to the conclusion that using racism would appeal to the general Japanese population. I don't know, I'm not going to do anything about it but I definitely won't be applauding it like you are here. |
You illustrate my point perfectly. You say "I'm not going to do anything about it," but you've already done your part, talking your little mouth off about how scary it all is, and how racist it is, and how ignorant those who don't have a problem with it are. You've played your role in mindlessly and reflexively transmitting dysfunctional western culture here, throwing out all the buzz words you've been trained to throw out.
None of that's important though. You won't listen, and you certainly won't reconsider the world view with which you've been indoctrinated. Here, let's play a little game instead. You say I'm ignorant, but tell me this: of what am I ignorant, exactly? Be precise, if you would, in listing these objectively true things of which I am unaware. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Nobody is demanding the Pacific Fleet be mobilized here. It's just classless humor. Nothing wrong with calling the advertisers out on it and maybe avoiding their products if possible. It happens in the USA too, it happens all over the world. Then there are people like you who think it's not only ok, but it's also healthy behavior. It's ignorant and honestly I find it a little scary that an advertising department somehow came to the conclusion that using racism would appeal to the general Japanese population. I don't know, I'm not going to do anything about it but I definitely won't be applauding it like you are here. |
You illustrate my point perfectly. You say "I'm not going to do anything about it," but you've already done your part, talking your little mouth off about how scary it all is, and how racist it is, and how ignorant those who don't have a problem with it are. You've played your role in mindlessly and reflexively transmitting dysfunctional western culture here, throwing out all the buzz words you've been trained to throw out.
None of that's important though. You won't listen, and you certainly won't reconsider the world view with which you've been indoctrinated. Here, let's play a little game instead. You say I'm ignorant, but tell me this: of what am I ignorant, exactly? Be precise, if you would, in listing these objectively true things of which I am unaware. |
Well for starters I think you are ignorant about how an advertisement depicting an Asian (specifically a Korean or Japanese) person would be perceived in Korea or Japan. I think you are pushing a double standard here and you are seriously underestimating how seriously slights like that are taken in Korea and Japan when you claim they don't have a PC culture. It is definitely a PC culture in Korea (I haven't lived or visited Japan so I won't speak on that any further but I assume it would upset people because that's just human nature). The way you are presenting it as if everyone has a sense of humor in East Asia about racial jokes is ridiculous to me. I definitely can't run around here doing an obnoxious impersonation of an Asian person and expect zero consequences.
For an example, let's look at what a model for Hollister did in Korea for his personal instagram. And keep in mind this is an individual and in no way reflected the attitude of Hollister.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/10/business/la-fi-mo-hollister-racist-models-south-korea-20120910
Now here is Jay Leno and the Dog Joke
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/636493/posts
Second, the fact that this type of thing causes so much outrage in East Asia, but there seems to be a failure on the part of the advertiser to realize that Westerners might be just as sensitive is also ignorant. The way you also fail to see this makes you ignorant of that as well. It's human nature to be upset when a person is mocked, and in my opinion it is really low when people are being mocked for something they can't control (size of their nose, color of their hair). It's classless humor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Well for starters I think you are ignorant about how an advertisement depicting an Asian (specifically a Korean or Japanese) person would be perceived in Korea or Japan. |
Your example is completely disproportionate. The Japanese ad was something for domestic consumption only, while the fellow that made the Koreans upset literally came to their country and took the piss out of them to their faces. Japanese and Korean people caricature themselves all the time with weird, overblown behavior. There is a tiny minority of Japanese and Korean nationalists who get seriously upset over perceived slights in other countries, yes, but the average citizen seems largely indifferent. That contrasts strongly with the west, where everyone and their mother is always falling all over themselves to status seek by "being a leader on racism and diversity." Angry anti-English spectrum posters poutily bitching on the internet are an oddity, but folks like you are all too typical, and that's the problem; you guys aren't angry, isolated netizens, you're just normal people.
I'm completely aware of how Asians respond, no ignorance there. That's strike one for you.
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Second, the fact that this type of thing causes so much outrage in East Asia, but there seems to be a failure on the part of the advertiser to realize that Westerners might be just as sensitive is also ignorant. |
I asked you to point out my supposed ignorance, hiamnotcool, not the supposed ignorance of Japanese advertisers. That said, the modern west is world famous for its cry babies, so you're fooling yourself if you think these advertisers didn't realize a westerner might be upset by it. The advertisement was made for domestic consumption. Could you even understand it? I couldn't, other than the last three words. They obviously underestimated just how fervently certain parties will search to find something to be offended by -- going as far as to dredge up a commercial they don't even understand and get upset over a stick-on nose! -- but that's not ignorance, it's naivete. Strike two.
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| The way you also fail to see this makes you ignorant of that as well. |
Hah! If you had shown me that advertisement, the first thought that would have gone through my mind is, "Hopefully none of the pants-wetting crybabies on Dave's see it, or else a thread is going to pop up bemoaning it." No, hiamnotcool, I'm all too aware of how easily you people are offended. That's strike three, you lose the game.
And what's most sad of all is the disingenuous character of your entire post. You and I both know well enough that none of this is what you had in mind when you called me ignorant. You were using a buzz word that is commonly used by people of your particular ideological indoctrination; ignorant in the capacity you meant it has absolutely nothing to do with, "Oh, you're ignorant of how a Japanese fellow might react to a commercial." So not only were all of your examples incorrect (one of them being not even related to me), but they're frankly dishonest.
You're a good representation of the political correctness movement, hiamnotcool, and that's why I frown on it. I seriously can't believe how pathetic my civilization has become; the most powerful civilization the world has ever known has descended to crying about classless humor in commercials, fretting over naughty words, and accusing those who don't go along with their game of scary ignorance.
Last edited by Fox on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Nobody is demanding the Pacific Fleet be mobilized here. It's just classless humor. Nothing wrong with calling the advertisers out on it and maybe avoiding their products if possible. It happens in the USA too, it happens all over the world. Then there are people like you who think it's not only ok, but it's also healthy behavior. It's ignorant and honestly I find it a little scary that an advertising department somehow came to the conclusion that using racism would appeal to the general Japanese population. I don't know, I'm not going to do anything about it but I definitely won't be applauding it like you are here. |
You illustrate my point perfectly. You say "I'm not going to do anything about it," but you've already done your part, talking your little mouth off about how scary it all is, and how racist it is, and how ignorant those who don't have a problem with it are. You've played your role in mindlessly and reflexively transmitting dysfunctional western culture here, throwing out all the buzz words you've been trained to throw out.
None of that's important though. You won't listen, and you certainly won't reconsider the world view with which you've been indoctrinated. Here, let's play a little game instead. You say I'm ignorant, but tell me this: of what am I ignorant, exactly? Be precise, if you would, in listing these objectively true things of which I am unaware. |
Well for starters I think you are ignorant about how an advertisement depicting an Asian (specifically a Korean or Japanese) person would be perceived in Korea or Japan. I think you are pushing a double standard here and you are seriously underestimating how seriously slights like that are taken in Korea and Japan when you claim they don't have a PC culture. It is definitely a PC culture in Korea (I haven't lived or visited Japan so I won't speak on that any further but I assume it would upset people because that's just human nature). The way you are presenting it as if everyone has a sense of humor in East Asia about racial jokes is ridiculous to me. I definitely can't run around here doing an obnoxious impersonation of an Asian person and expect zero consequences.
For an example, let's look at what a model for Hollister did in Korea for his personal instagram. And keep in mind this is an individual and in no way reflected the attitude of Hollister.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/10/business/la-fi-mo-hollister-racist-models-south-korea-20120910
Now here is Jay Leno and the Dog Joke
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/636493/posts
Second, the fact that this type of thing causes so much outrage in East Asia, but there seems to be a failure on the part of the advertiser to realize that Westerners might be just as sensitive is also ignorant. The way you also fail to see this makes you ignorant of that as well. It's human nature to be upset when a person is mocked, and in my opinion it is really low when people are being mocked for something they can't control (size of their nose, color of their hair). It's classless humor. |
Kinda gotta agree with hiamnotcool on this one. This wasn't like the Korean blackface incident (which had the added layer of mitigation being that it was also in part a reference to a cartoon character), this was pretty bad. It's the Asian equivalent of Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Fox"]
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Japanese and Korean people caricature themselves all the time with weird, overblown behavior. . |
THEMSELVES. THEMSELVES. THEMSELVES.
I can't believe you can't see the difference in doing that and mocking another race. Caricaturing your own race and caricaturing another race are two totally different things, and they will bring about two completely different emotions from a given race.
The funny things is I hate PC culture just as much. I hate the PC culture in the USA and I hate the PC culture in Korea. You are ignorant of the nature of the PC culture in Korea. The way you talk about Korea like it is some bastion of free speech where people can be all friendly and jovial about race is not realistic. The double standard is what bothers me, and the way that in East Asia (specifically Korea) the excuse for racist behavior is always excused as a lack of experience dealing with other races. The reason this doesn't fly with me is that in general Korea is very sensitive about some issues, I provided 2 examples to show that. It's called empathy and Koreans have it.
Now since you seem to believe the USA is hypersensitive about slights like this, lets wait and see the outrage that is stirred up over this commercial. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Japanese and Korean people caricature themselves all the time with weird, overblown behavior. . |
THEMSELVES. THEMSELVES. THEMSELVES.
I can't believe you can't see the difference in doing that and mocking another race. Caricaturing your own race and caricaturing another race are two totally different things, and they will bring about two completely different emotions from a given race. |
|
Make fun of Jews and I'll joke right along with you (and given I'm a bit of a cheap fellow, folks have had plenty of opportunities to do so), so you're not going to win me over with this one. The most you can argue here is that the Japanese also fail to live up to my standard to some extent, but again, that's not ignorance.
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| The funny things is I hate PC culture just as much. I hate the PC culture in the USA and I hate the PC culture in Korea. You are ignorant of the nature of the PC culture in Korea. |
You are using the word "ignorant" inappropriately in order to try to defend your previous reflexive use of it. And given you think that a joke was scary, don't tell me you don't like PC culture.
Koreans have pride, and yes sometimes that pride can be insulted, but that's not the same as political correctness. That might be a nuanced point, but it's a non-trivial one for anyone who actually cares about the matter. If any American wants to stand up and claim their pride as a white man/woman was insulted by this commercial, I won't be particularly impressed, but I won't rant about it. But that's not the angle taken here. The angle taken here was the angle of politically correct anti-racism (and yes, you explicitly referenced racism). Hell, many white people will outright claim to not believe in race ("Race is just a social construct, blah blah blah"), and unsurprisingly, the same people happen to be the ones who freak out about this kind of thing.
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| The way you talk about Korea like it is some bastion of free speech ... |
You're here literally attacking freedom of expression (not in a political sense, but in a moral one), so I'm not sure what you're going for here. Korea is obviously not a bastion of free speech, given restricted speech does in fact exist here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Let me see if I can state this more clearly and concisely. Pride is natural; it is not necessarily laudable, but it's understandable. Mastering and overcoming pride is a good and virtuous thing. Intellectualizing and universalizing pride via politically correct ideology is a bad and vicious thing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| It's ignorant and honestly I find it a little scary that an advertising department somehow came to the conclusion that using racism would appeal to the general Japanese population. |
That's just it, there must have been several meetings where the idea was pitched to a group of people and managers who either worked for TOSHIBA or the ad agency that came up with the idea - or both!
How did this one get by them? I mean, was there not even one of them said, "hold on...wait a minute here, this just might put us in a bad light. Maybe we should come up with a new idea."
That's the shocker. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I was curious about that. That happened in early 2002. I just recall bringing up Jay Leno at some point for some reason, maybe a year after that, and having a reaction, "We don't like him." I bet that sentiment remains for many, over ten years later, anytime they hear about Leno. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
The most you can argue here is that the Japanese also fail to live up to my standard to some extent, but again, that's not ignorance.
|
It is ignorance if the advertisers failed to understand that it would upset white people, specifically Americans. It is an indication that a significant portion of Japanese people might react favorably to that ad if the advertising company chose to use it, which scares me because that is an indication that a significant portion of the Japanese people are very ignorant of the sensitivities of other races.
It is ignorance on your part if you think that pride is not rationalized and encouraged in East Asian countries, and if you think that there isn't a different brand of PC culture that exists here.
Pathetic to me would be a white person that allows their race to be continually mocked by people who will not tolerate the mockery of their respective race. Laughing when Japanese people mock the physical features of White people, then not daring to mock the physical features of a Japanese person is pathetic. It would be applauding a double standard as if it is a lack of PC culture, when in reality it is nothing but a slap in the face directed at non-Japanese foreigners (or just white people, whatever). The respect that is at least attempted to be given by American PC culture is not being returned here, yet the East Asian countries seem to be more than happy to demand that respect from the USA anyway.
This isn't non-PC culture, it's the same type of thing you see in America with movies like "White Girls" where there is a double standard being applied. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
Make fun of Jews and I'll joke right along with you (and given I'm a bit of a cheap fellow, folks have had plenty of opportunities to do so), so you're not going to win me over with this one. \ |
And you didn't make this add, so I'm not sure why you mention this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
It is ignorance if the advertisers failed to understand that it would upset white people, specifically Americans. |
1) You can't prove they didn't realize it; as mentioned, this was made for domestic consumption, not international release.
2) Not all Americans are white. None the less, it is right that Americans -- not just white Americans, but Americans in general -- would probably be upset by this, because a different psychological and cultural scheme is at work as compared to East Asians. This is precisely why I'm so indifferent to your protestation that "PC culture exists in Korea too!" Whatever you think exists in Korea, it's not of a kind with what exists in America, so I see no profit in using the same terminology for each.
3) Perhaps most importantly, none of this talk of the advertisers state of mind has anything to do with your accusations regarding me.
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| It is ignorance on your part if you think that pride is not rationalized and encouraged in East Asian countries, and if you think that there isn't a different brand of PC culture that exists here. |
1) I said rationalized and universalized. If you want to argue that Asians universalize their pride, you're just wrong. Just because the absence of a single concise word forces me to express an idea using multiple words doesn't mean you can cut that expression in half; those words came as a unit and expressed a single idea. Either you're interested in trying to understand my ideas here or you aren't. If you are, make a better effort. If you aren't, why are we talking?
2) No point in trying to twist the concept of political correctness with me. As mentioned above, I will not be a party to such linguistic obfuscation. Maybe you could apply the same word to each in the same way you could apply "love" to both your feeling for your mother and your like of chocolate, but they are none-the-less clearly different things. Such is the case here as well.
3) Again, even if this were reasonable -- which it isn't -- none of it intersects with your initial implication when you accused me of ignorance. When you accused me of ignorance, you would have had to have been monumentally ignorant yourself to have thought, "Oh, Fox doesn't realize that Americans people can upset by this kind of advertisement, and that Japanese are prideful. That makes him ignorant, and I'm going to tell him such!" Do you think I'm so foolish as to believe that?
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| Pathetic to me would be ... |
Why do you think I'm interested in your take on the matter? I didn't quote you and start responding to your opinion on this issue, did I? I'm not interested in what you consider pathetic, your "definition" of PC behavior, or so forth. I'm articulating mine, at your prompting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
